Cropping Ears, Cutting off Tails WHY?

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Anonymous'][quote name='Nicki']Israel has outlawed this practice totally. As the practice is so common we hardly even think about it. I can see an argument being made that it is a form of animal cruelty. There is no valid reason for any of it. It's done purely to please man's perception of how he thinks the breed should look. As it stands now, we have the right to amputate whatever body part we want on our dogs. We condone ears and tails being cut off but what about owners who are having their dog's vocal chords cut out so that they can not bark. New Jersey is in the process of outlawing this practice cuz it is so common. But is there really a difference. What other body part will some owner think of next?[/quote]

How sad that NJ is trying to outlaw a practice that allows so many dogs to stay in their homes and not be dumped out :-(
All breeding of purebred animals and plants of any type is done to please humans - its the way we are. If you docked after nerves were knit or cropped without anesthesia I could see cruelty but not when its a surgical procedure properly done.
We spay and neuter animals for our own convenience, we confine them by law for the same reason, we kill pets for daring to bite us or our kids and so on. Is surgery cruel? I don't really think so.[/quote]

I do see your point, I really do but then I do not... Why can dogs not be in homes in NJ if they bark? Kind of like having a child that cries...dogs bark...Not all animals are bred for human pleasure! The mutts and mixes that end up in the pounds because someone was to sorry to have their dog spayed or neutered was not done for anyones pleasure but it would have been a convenience for the life of those pups. My dog just got fixed at 3 I have been out with her every time she was in heat because she is my responsibility to bad more people do not think like that! However I do see that people have done alot for convience but convience does not come first with my dogs they come first.
I will agree with you no surgery is not cruel when done correct..but I do feel it is cosmetic and is the choice of the owner...

[Guest Anonymous]

I didn't read everyone's posts, because I just wanted to put in a little tid bit of information. I don't think that cropping the ears is a big deal. It's a personal preference as has been said. What I do mind is the deal with the tails. I don't know about any other breed, but with Pit Bulls, their spine goes into their tails. There is bone in there. When you cut off their tails it actully messes with their balance. It also makes them less agile. A Pit Bull who has a chopped off tail might be able to jump as high as six feet off the ground, but I guarantee you, if it still had it's tail, it could jump higher. The tail on a Pit Bull is very important to it's physical abilities. I would STRONGLY advise against getting this done.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='RockyNCocoa']I didn't read everyone's posts, because I just wanted to put in a little tid bit of information. I don't think that cropping the ears is a big deal. It's a personal preference as has been said. What I do mind is the deal with the tails. I don't know about any other breed, but with Pit Bulls, their spine goes into their tails. There is bone in there. When you cut off their tails it actully messes with their balance. It also makes them less agile. A Pit Bull who has a chopped off tail might be able to jump as high as six feet off the ground, but I guarantee you, if it still had it's tail, it could jump higher. The tail on a Pit Bull is very important to it's physical abilities. I would STRONGLY advise against getting this done.[/quote]

I don't know where you studied the anatomy and physiology of dogs but I can assure you I've never seen a dog jump with its tail - most of them use their legs and backs for that one :lol:
Seriously all dogs have vertebrae that go down the tail. Docking when done right is done so early the nerves are not even knit to the brain from that location as yet (pups are born only partly 'completed' and this is one area not finished developing at birth same as sight and hearing is not) so the pups just grow up without the full tail and never know any difference.
The vertebrae actually change as they go down the tail and many of the docked breeds are docked at the point of changeover from strong solid bone to the slighter narrower part of the tail.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='"
I do see your point, I really do but then I do not... Why can dogs not be in homes in NJ if they bark? Kind of like having a child that cries...dogs bark...Not all animals are bred for human pleasure! The mutts and mixes that end up in the pounds because someone was to sorry to have their dog spayed or neutered was not done for anyones pleasure but it would have been a convenience for the life of those pups. My dog just got fixed at 3 I have been out with her every time she was in heat because she is my responsibility to bad more people do not think like that! However I do see that people have done alot for convience but convience does not come first with my dogs they come first.
I will agree with you no surgery is not cruel when done correct..but I do feel it is cosmetic and is the choice of the owner...[/quote']

Have you looked at the noise ordinances lately? dogs barking usually have entire laws written about them. In apartments you can lose your rental unit if your dog barks, in housing if your neighbors complain you can be fined and also forced to get rid of your dog. In senior housing if the dog barks it goes or the senior loses their home. I do not advocate debarking instead of training but I know some dogs just can't not bark! and some owners just cannot do the training even if the dog was capable of learning to not bark (if you trained your dog to be quiet - great! - but don't presume every dog can be trained the same as some breeds and some dogs just are born to be barkers!).
So what choice do you have if you are going to lose your home or your dog will be taken from you by law unless you can stop the barking *immediately*? You either dump the dog or debark it. Many a senior has their loving companion to the end because the dog doesn't bark loudly enough to disturb the neighbors. I hate seeing that chance being taken from owners who do love and care for their dogs but cannot teach the dog not to bark loudly.
Sadly our crowded world is less and less tolerant of the animal owners living in it and their pets. I'm not sure adapting to that situation really ranks as cosmetic surgery.

[Guest Anonymous]

My question or statement would be that the only thing that seems to be adapting is the dog. The owner has nothing cut or removed or scraped. So there is no adapting on their behalf. I feel that things like noise ordinances should be looked over BEFORE someone even gets a dog..if there is going to be a conflict then do not get one. That is simple to me, God gave them the ability to bark just as we have the ablility to talk so who gave us the right to take that?? Dogs bark it may not be convenient to us but that is what they do people...If you do not like it train them or get up and tell them shhhh or hush or something!! Seniors who have had a dog forever and are forced or HAVE to move I feel is different because it is out of their control but I do feel with time a dog can learn to bark quietly or be told to be quiet!! :wink: That is just my .02

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Jacsmom']My question or statement would be that the only thing that seems to be adapting is the dog. The owner has nothing cut or removed or scraped. So there is no adapting on their behalf. I feel that things like noise ordinances should be looked over BEFORE someone even gets a dog..if there is going to be a conflict then do not get one. That is simple to me, God gave them the ability to bark just as we have the ablility to talk so who gave us the right to take that?? Dogs bark it may not be convenient to us but that is what they do people...If you do not like it train them or get up and tell them shhhh or hush or something!! Seniors who have had a dog forever and are forced or HAVE to move I feel is different because it is out of their control but I do feel with time a dog can learn to bark quietly or be told to be quiet!! :wink: That is just my .02[/quote]
Well IME laws can easily change in the time between when pups get acquired and grow to be senior citizens as ten to fifteen or more years is a long time and laws as more housing gets built can change radically.
I take it you don't shush your children in public areas or rental housing? :lol: most parents do and most owners do try and control their dog's barking (when they even hear it) but not all dogs can be trained not to bark loudly.
A barking dog that is continually punished is not happy and neither is its owner. Shock collars and those horrid smelling collar sprays (possibly worse torture to a dog than the electric shocks IMO) don't work on all dogs either.
IMO, having seen debarked dogs more than once, the dog with a quieter voice is much happier as its allowed to bark as it needs to without driving owner or neighbors nuts and its no longer being punished for what it needs to do. I feel it can be a win win as the dog gets to keep vocalizing as it was born to do and the owner gets to keep the dog. Again its not instead of training but a 'just in case' if training won't work and the owner is actually dedicated enough to spend money on the dog instead of just throwing it away and getting a different one that may turn out to be naturally quieter.
PS I hope you *never* get a dog that won't/can't learn to be quiet and constantly vocalizes loudly - they can be as hard to live with as a dog that never stops moving and doing while its awake can be

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Anonymous']
PS I hope you *never* get a dog that won't/can't learn to be quiet and constantly vocalizes loudly - they can be as hard to live with as a dog that never stops moving and doing while its awake can be[/quote]


Well in answer to the PS I have one he is a 5 1/2 month old lab and he is loud and moving constantly. :P But I have no noise ordainance and I researched and knew alot on the breed having owned several they can be hyper and loud as puppies. Therefore my homework was done. Will I dump him or do surgery?? No I think not!! :D I will train and if that doesn't work I have a loud dog! When is he loud? When someone comes, when he wants to play,and when he wants something. I can live with that and neighbors are not even close. Of course their dogs bark also so should they have surgery? I am not requesting it because I feel they are dogs and that is what they do. We had a stray that 'lived' here for 1 yr and he barked constantly but if I walked out the door and told him to hush he stopped for the night. That was a stray and he was 'trainable'.
You never know what a puppy will grow to be, but if you talk to the breeder and others who have that breed you get a good idea. It is a commitment. Hard to live with or not. My pup is not hard to live with. Labs by nature will eat anything are vocal and going constantly. He is FUN. That is what I wanted because my family goes constantly also and he goes with us. If you sit around all day and cannot have noise get a stuffed animal! I completely understand the seniors though I am with you on that. I however do not see someone else, as in a young or middle aged couple or singleton, getting a dog that they know will bark and putting it in a restricted barking place. Basically do not buy one if you cannot have one or get an older already trained or quiet dog. Reputable breeders have these also... :wink:

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='"Jacsmom"'][quote name='Anonymous']
PS I hope you *never* get a dog that won't/can't learn to be quiet and constantly vocalizes loudly - they can be as hard to live with as a dog that never stops moving and doing while its awake can be[/quote]


Well in answer to the PS I have one he is a 5 1/2 month old lab and he is loud and moving constantly. :P But I have no noise ordainance and I researched and knew alot on the breed having owned several they can be hyper and loud as puppies. snip
[quote]

Well not quite the same as many pups outgrow this with time and training and exercise. So if the local law comes to your door with a summons for not complying with the noise ordinance passed by the yuppies who build homes in your neighborhood in the next few years will you keep the dog no matter what you have to do to manage that or exchange this one for a quiet older already trained dog? - this is a rhetorical question really I just want you to think about your intolerance for other people having to make hard choices because of where they live through chance or circumstance.
Not everyone can afford country living and not everyone makes a wise choice in pets - its what they can do after that choice is already made which is at issue here. Would you rather they got rid of the dog due to the problem or kept the dog by resolving the problem?
I for one am in favor of leaving options open so people can keep their pets even if they have to live where their neighbors are intolerant of their pets normal behaviors.
I don't view debarking as a 'first choice' I do view it as a reasonable last ditch decision in order to keep a family pet in its loving home.

[Guest Anonymous]

I do not live in a city limit so therefore have no noise ordainance at this time and has not been in the life of this county. The 120 acres behind and beside me consist of farm land and cattle. Which it has been for approx. 30+ yrs., if this comes available for sale, which I doubt will ever happen, we will are the first to be contacted. People hold on to land around here forever and never sale it. Everyones dog barks around here with out worry of surgery or a court date. I can hear the dogs a mile down the road bark! :) I will never exchange or have surgery on my dog for barking no in answer to your question.

My intolerance is not about where they live. My intolerance as you said is in 'their not so wise choice' of pets. I feel this is the problem. As I said there are several older trained dogs available.
IF debarking does remain an option in NJ and elsewhere I do feel that vets should make certain that all other routes have been taking to try to control this behavior before surgery. :wink:
With this subject we will have to agree to disagree in a way. I see your points and you have explained them well. This has been a good debate. Thank you guest!! :D

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Jacsmom']snip
With this subject we will have to agree to disagree in a way. I see your points and you have explained them well. This has been a good debate. Thank you guest!! :D[/quote]

I understand that you don't have to worry as yet because of where you live but I for one am experiencing unbelievable growth in my formerly rural area and I assure you unless you happen to be a multimillionaire (hey some people are I've heard :wink: ) you would not be able to *touch* that amount of land in a growing area like this one if it came up for sale.
Its hard to remember how crowded the urban areas and even the suburban ones are and how intolerant people are becoming over things like noise and pets. I bet you don't have a pooper scooper law in your neighborhood either :D
As I have seen dogs live that would have died, literally, without being debarked and live happily ever after well I will just have to disagree with you about the potential need for such a solution to a noisy pet.

[Guest Anonymous]

There is no poopy scoop law here either!! :D Except for one dating back in 1800's for horse on the Main St. in town! :P Unfortunately I am not a multimillionaire(I do dream :) ) but I do know that land is cheaper here than up north. This area does not interest yuppies. :D

As I said this debarking should be resorted to after everything else is exhausted. And then only if there is a noise ordainance in this persons area. I will give an example of misuse of this surgery: I resently looked at some pups and a breeder had a bitch who was barking. Probably because there were strangers in her yard but he said he was going to take her and get her debarked. I proceeded to ask if he had a noise ordainance in his area he replied no. He just said that the dog barked and he thought it would be cool to debark her. He even explained the surgery to me. Needless to say we left after that.
That to me is sick and uncalled for. He never had tried training or anything. He just opted for surgery. But otherwise I agree that we disagree!!!!! :D :P :D

[Guest Anonymous]

There appears to be a misunderstanding regarding New Jersey's proposed debarking law. New Jersey proposes to outlaw the removal of dogs' vocal chords rendering them unable to bark. A study performed by the state revealed that the debarking operation was commonly performed on drug dealers' dogs so that the dogs, who were guarding drugs, could sneak up on intruders. There were no cases cited that owners debarked their dogs due to noise ordinances. Perhaps there were some owners that just wanted to silence their dogs but it is primarily done by drug dealers according to the state study.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='nicki']There appears to be a misunderstanding regarding New Jersey's proposed debarking law. New Jersey proposes to outlaw the removal of dogs' vocal chords rendering them unable to bark. A study performed by the state revealed that the debarking operation was commonly performed on drug dealers' dogs so that the dogs, who were guarding drugs, could sneak up on intruders. There were no cases cited that owners debarked their dogs due to noise ordinances. Perhaps there were some owners that just wanted to silence their dogs but it is primarily done by drug dealers according to the state study.[/quote]

In other words the state has no clue about how many people do use the surgery and why they do but the cops are afraid of dogs sneaking up on them when they do a raid. So some bright politician <sarcasm folks> thinks the criminals will follow the law on this one item for some strange reason so a new pretty stupid law is needed.... Certainly NO dogs will benefit as if the vets stop doing the surgery I assure you the surgery will still be done just not humanely... :cry:

[Guest Anonymous]

I would have to agree with you guest!! I am just curious as to how they got the drug dealers to answer the study or rather who performed the study that came up with those results. I assure the NJ state officials that not many drug dealers are going to reply "Yes sir I remove my dogs vocal chords so i can scare the crap out of some law officer." :D :D Better yet I am sure that they do not go to the vets office and say "Yep I am that drug dealer down the road and I need my dogs vocal chords removed." :D This is crazy!! To think that these people are actually voted in!! :o Again like guest <sarcasm> These are drug dealers they are not going to follow laws, if they did they would not be dealing drugs. They will find alternative means by which to perform this operation. Then there will be more dogs dying from infection and dropped at shelters with God knows what wrong. I seriously think this needs to be rethought!!

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't think the reality that there will always be people who won't follow the law is a valid argument against the proposed debarking law or any other law. If one was to follow that logic then we would legalize drugs, drunk driving, rape, child molestation, murder. Let's face it, criminals don't care that its against the law...they still do those things.

The passage of the law would be taking a legal stand that debarking is wrong and any one who performs the procedure or employs someone to perform the procedure on thier dog could be criminally punished. I'm all for it.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='nicki']I don't think the reality that there will always be people who won't follow the law is a valid argument against the proposed debarking law or any other law. If one was to follow that logic then we would legalize drugs, drunk driving, rape, child molestation, murder. Let's face it, criminals don't care that its against the law...they still do those things.

The passage of the law would be taking a legal stand that debarking is wrong and any one who performs the procedure or employs someone to perform the procedure on thier dog could be criminally punished. I'm all for it.[/quote]
I think there is a difference in debarking and rape, child molestation and etc... sorry.. :wink:
My only thing is if the cannot catch them dealing the drugs how can they catch them debarking their dogs!!???
My main question is how do they know that drug dealers are the main ones that do this???? If this law is passed people will resort to taking their dog out of state to have it done so what then? Or as I said drug dealers will do it other ways... I do not agree with it as a first resort I think all other thigs should be tried first. Vets could sent them to trainers..If that does not work have the trainer sign something and return it to vet and so on.. In fact I think people should research a breed before they get it and be sure. I agree Nikki in some cases but if a senior citizen has a dog and is moved to housing and this is the only way for someone to keep a dog they have had for years I agree with it.. :D Agreeing to disagree

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='nicki']I don't think the reality that there will always be people who won't follow the law is a valid argument against the proposed debarking law or any other law. If one was to follow that logic then we would legalize drugs, drunk driving, rape, child molestation, murder. Let's face it, criminals don't care that its against the law...they still do those things.

The passage of the law would be taking a legal stand that debarking is wrong and any one who performs the procedure or employs someone to perform the procedure on thier dog could be criminally punished. I'm all for it.[/quote]
I don't equate surgery done by a veterinarian to any of the crimes you state. I do believe that the criminals won't follow the law anyway so the only purpose of the law is to give them perhaps more jail time if they happen to get caught. Not a valid purpose IMO.
There are too many legitimate needs in our crowded society for this operation for it to be outlawed simply to permit further punishment of drug dealers.
I say the surgery prevents dogs from being dumped and killed in shelters and I know this from the dogs I have met who were saved by the procedure.
I don't see how it will stop any criminal activity and I do see how it can harm dogs so I say its a bad and worse stupid law being proposed by ignorant people who don't give a darn about dogs at all.

[Guest Anonymous]

Jasmom & Guest....HELLO....the analogy applies to your LOGIC. You both said that it was useless to criminalize debarking as the criminals will still break the law and debark their dogs. So what I was saying was, just because criminals break the law is not a valid reason for not criminalizing certain acts. To apply your logic.....criminals will break the law so don't bother to criminalize an act....don't bother to make murder a crime cuz criminals will still kill anyways. That is your logic...and logic can be applied to other acts even if the acts are not the same....because the logic shown is the same.

It sppears that you both approve of debarking justifying that it would allow some dogs to stay in their home. IMO, debarking is cruel, inhumane, abusive, repugnant and unjustifiable.

[Guest Anonymous]

Nikki I can tell we are not going to agree on this, because murder and debarking do not even fit in the same category for law makers either, so it is time to move on. I see your points and agree with some of them but not all. Agreeing to disagree.... :wink: Thanks for the debate!!

[Guest Anonymous]

This is what they did to the breed originally. America is onr of the only countries that does this.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]because murder and debarking do not even fit in the same category for law makers either[/quote]

Again I'll say, I did not equate murder and debarking to be in the same category. I was referring to the logic.

I'll try another analogy. You said pointless to criminalize debarking cuz criminals will break the law and still do it. Is it pointless to have speed limits on roads cuz there will always be some people who will drive above the posted speed limit?

My comment on your logic has nothing to do with being for or against debarking.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='nicki'][quote]because murder and debarking do not even fit in the same category for law makers either[/quote]

Again I'll say, I did not equate murder and debarking to be in the same category. I was referring to the logic.

I'll try another analogy. You said pointless to criminalize debarking cuz criminals will break the law and still do it. Is it pointless to have speed limits on roads cuz there will always be some people who will drive above the posted speed limit?

My comment on your logic has nothing to do with being for or against debarking.[/quote]

Wrong analogies is what we are saying - why have a law to stop a criminal action which will not stop the criminal action *and* will do harm to the pets of people who need to do that particular surgery in order to keep their pets?
I suspect speed limit laws for example do in many cases stop people from driving the roads too fast, and as driving fast is permitted for emergency vehicles in any case and not actually needed in any other situation it does no harm only good to have such a law.
As for murder - well I happen to be in favor of humane euthanasia - and the question is would that be murder... :lol:
Making debarking illegal is IMO foolish if you comprehend the other uses it is put to besides the turning of dogs into silent weapons.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='beagle88']Well because we live in America and it is our own choice I guess. I love the croped and docked look!! :D[/quote]

I would love to see your weiner cropped and docked :o

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Anonymous'][quote name='beagle88']Well because we live in America and it is our own choice I guess. I love the croped and docked look!! :D[/quote]

I would love to see your weiner cropped and docked :o[/quote]

what is a weiner :o

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='beagle88'][quote name='Anonymous'][quote name='beagle88']Well because we live in America and it is our own choice I guess. I love the croped and docked look!! :D[/quote]

I would love to see your weiner cropped and docked :o[/quote]

what is a weiner :o[/quote]

What the above guest uses to think with? :roll: