imported_Matty

pyrless, I guess what Im trying to say is that if they wanted to post pictures of mongrels (which are the forefathers of purebreds) or mixed breeds or crosses what you could do is to have subcatagories like. Northern dogs spitz breeds livestock guardian breeds herding breeds sled type dogs mastiff type breeds retrievers draft dogs Guarding type dogs For example I have Husky mixes, I would put them under the catagory of Northern breed. :wink: A freind of mine has a shepherdy looking looking dog she could put that under guarding type dog. etc etc. Meant to add that this is what they would have done before Purebred dogs were created :wink:

[quote]I agree...a mixed breed database would be cool, but how would you go about categorizing it??? A large percentage of mixed breed owners have no clue about the parentage of their dogs....although some (like the designer mixes) can be quite easy to figure out , but what about the true mongrels that are a mix of several breeds[/quote] From what I read here on dogo purebreds are fairly new and come from mixed breeds which come from mixed types/races or mongrels. So each race would be catagorized by norhtern breeds, herding, retrievers, hunting dogs, pointers, spitz type breeds, bull breeds, mastiff type breeds, toy/companion type dogs, terriers and so on. Some of these types of dogs have specific behaviors known only to their specific type. So basically mongrels or races of dogs are true breeds where purebred dogs are just mixes of those purebred mongrels. Each catagory would be a type of mongrel dog. The only thing that makes a purebred different or look more true to their breed is they are so inbred that they all have the same conformation etc. do you understand what Im trying to say cause Im just trying to disifer what I have learned reading posts by Cassie. :wink: :D It totally makes sense when you really think about it. first came Mongrels/races then came mixed races then came purebreds then you can have mixed breeds from purebreds or crossbreeds which is just two purebreds then you can still have the orginal mongrels left which man has not touched. So it would be easy to catagorize mixed breeds or mongrels to type or group based on behavior and some simular looks. :wink: Mongrels were here long before purebreds were even a thought in some person's head :lol: Also mongrels from certain areas kinda assumed basically the same size, shape and behavioral patterns. Thats how we got so many different purebreds we had a large stock of mongrels to choose from to develop our purebreds. I just have to ask, do people really think that any dog that isnt a purebred is a mixture of purebreds? :o

I think I will email him. It just burns me up if he is selling out.

[quote]Ummm, Im sorry Matty but I really dont get what that had to do with anything I said. Maybe I missed something here? He nor I ever said anthing about any dog being dangerous.. only mean. Any breed can be that. I agree though that the extent of damage is way worse with some breeds, but that has nothing to do with what I said[/quote] __crazy_canine__ I guess what Im trying to say is that is seems people are always saying stuff like Oh a Golden Retriever can be just as dangerous as a Rottweiler. I am trying to get across that the chances of an unsocialized guardian, dog fighting type breed to be more dangerous than a hunting breed or companian dog are really high. When people start classing all dogs in the same level of aggression or same low trigger points then they are not helping their breed very much. If I was out to buy a dog to "protect" my home, or protect my livestock or to be a dog for police work that will attack a person. I am not going to choose a Golden Retriever or a Collie. Different breeds were breed specifically for different things to class them all at the same level of aggression or trigger points is just wrong. It will be interesting what your teacher teaches you. :wink: I am not trying to be stupid :D I am just curious as to what people are trying to get across. Are they trying to say that a Golden can be just as aggressive as a Rottweiler? Are they saying that in an actual attack a Golden is going to do the same amount of damage that say an APBT is capable of? I just don't get this whole every breed is the same and can be on the same level of danger to humans? :-? I just get so many different opionions and Im getting confused.

[quote]Then the teacher goes into a discussion about "any breed can be a super breed, but any breed can also be a mean one" he went on about how its the owners fault not the dog. Im thinking, "YES! He is a good teacher after all!" Then he said, "...pit bulls can be great dogs. Ive seen them do therapy work... just loving dogs!" I was so glad he said that especially right after people were just thinking about how mean they must be to fight. [/quote] Okay, now let me get this straight. Although "some" breeds are bred to be guard dogs, attack dogs, dog fighting dogs, pest killing dogs and then there are some dogs bred to be to be a hunters helper by retrieving but to not bruise or damage the bird, point out prey, herd prey objects but not attack them, and then some breeds are just bred to be companions without the prey drive. So, basically all dogs are on the same level and the owner has to make them into what they want. so, all dogs are cast from the same clay and we owners mold them into guard dogs, herding dogs, hunting dogs. I think some people really kinda fluff up the whole "All breeds can be dangerous" conversation. Yes, in reality they all can bite, but, also in reality some breeds are bred to be more dangerous than others. They have not all been bred to be the same with the same level of aggression or trigger points. They all have enhanced behaviors. I would be more inclined to think a terrier (APBT) would be FAR more DANGEROUS than a Golden Retriever. Yes, a Golden will bite but they don't have the breeding to go into a full out mauling and killing where an APBT does. By the way, I was seriously attacked by a sweet loving APBT which was bred by reputable breeders. The owner was a friend and he did obedience with his APBT and had gotten his CGC to do thereapy work with the dog. So, this dog could have been used to do therapy work and it seriously attacked me. It was an unprovoked attack and would not have been as serious by many other breeds of dogs. I am just curious about this, I am not trying to start any thing. But, isnt this what we discussed here before about how the most dangerous owner is the one who doesnt do the proper research. A dangerous owner is some one who takes a particular breed and tries to mold the dog into some thing else just to "prove" to other people what they can do. A dangerous owner is the ones who take dog aggressive dogs and think they should be allowed in all dog parks etc and should be treated just like any other dog. And a dangerous owner is the one who gets peeved because a person tries to avoid their certain breed. I know myself, I will cross the road when I see certain guardian type dogs and some terriers and Rottweilers. I don't take chances of myself or my dogs to get attacked.

Dogpaddle Im right there with you. If the soldiers are eating why can't they share their left overs with the dogs :evil: Sounds kinda stupid to me. What do people think dogs ate before kibble was invented??? my grandparents had working dogs that worked in the feilds with the cows and livestock those dogs ate table scraps and did really well. One of his collies died at the age of 21 by getting hit by a yard vehicle. The dogs were really healthy and my grandparents by no means were wealthy people. They think its quite ridiculous with the pet food industry this day and age. I think those soldiers should be giving leftovers to the dogs.

Dogpaddle, Dr Weil has been an advocate of feeding raw foods for his dogs for years. On his site he has loads of information on proper feeding for dogs even telling only to feed free range animals & organic veggies....he also recommends the proper fishes and never to purchase farmed fish or Atlantic fish because of pollution. He made a joke once about how he was at the grocery store and had a cart full of red meats for his dogs. A lady recognized him and was quite apalled as Dr Weil is totally against we humans eating red meats due to high cholestral and other things. She kinda thought he was not practicing what he preaches... :lol: he had to explain the raw meat was for his dogs. This is why Im really surprised that he would stand behind this product. :(

I liked the Dogue de Bordeaux off Turner & Hooch.

Im kinda disspointed that this isnt a good quality or top quality. Its backed up by Dr. Andrew Weil the leader in holistic health. I would have ordered it just on his recommendation :-?

HOld your dog, and blow in its nose, when it is still in shock of the blowing in the nose stick the syringe in the side of the dogs mouth and get the med down the dogs throat. Just short blows in the nose, it works for nail trimming too. Make sure you don't make every thing into such a big ordeal for your dog. We can make our dogs dislike tasks that we have to perform. I rescued a Husky which was really bad for doing nails and giving med's after working with him for a little while he is now great for these tasks. He is so good that when he got a little too friendly with a porcupine he sat with his mouth open while I got the quills out of his tongue and between his teeth.

[quote]Well... I could see that for Akitas, which were at one point used for pit fighting, but I think the term should then be "pit dogs" not "pit bulls," [b]because many of the dogs listed don't have the "bull" in them.[/b][/quote] [b]Mutts4Me wrote[/b] I didn't think any dog had bull in them :o that would really be crossbreeding different species. :lol:

Thanks TDG, my Vet seems to be really supportive (and a litte worried) about Kavik. I am going to get the book dr. lonsdale's "raw meaty bones promte health". that you recommend. I think I am really concerned about feeding properly, I am so afraid of bloat and flipping. ONe of my friends said that Im going to come home some day to a dead dog. I thought that was really unthoughtful of her :evil: The vet thinks stapling at this time is premature cause of my dogs body type. Thanks every one, Ill keep y'all updated an his new diet and style of life. I was able to make it home the other day to let him out on lunch. My boss seems to be really understanding, this I find scary :o I really appreciate the book reference. I didn't want to go out spending a small fortune on books. I also want to make sure I find one easy to follow cause I have a hard enough time as it is.

OK, so I think I get it. Mongrels are natural and probably not too many orginal mongrels left in the world except maybe 3rd world countries. So, a Mongrel would be the most healthy. So, a mixed breed is a mix of a few artificial purebreds so the possibiliy of a mixed breed getting a genetic disease is higher because it has purebred in its genetic make up. Because a purebred had to be inbred to set a standard they have a higher likelyhood of having a manmade genetic disease like HD. So, if you have HD in a purebred and it mates with a mixed breed then they can carry the gene on to the mixed breeds. Same with a purebred mongrel, if they mixed with a purebred man made dog the chance they would become genetically unhealthy is much greater. Crossbreeding can make for a bigger gene pool but you would have to have good healthy dogs to start from. Even reputable purebred breeders can't keep genetic disease out of their lines cause they are breeding from inbred stock. All purebreds have been inbred and the gene pools are really small. I think I get it now :D So basically there really arnt many purebred mongrels left in the world and some times if you see lots of stray dogs in a country like Mexico or Asia or Africa they could be purebred mongrels that have been for thousands of years and never ever belonged to humans. They just evolved to be scavengers like rats..and you see all kinds of rats running around that humans never bred :o :lol: That reminds me, rats that are purebred are known to have a lot of genetic defects too. I thought that was kinda odd. I also was reading a website where they are now crossbreeding cattle to avoid genetic disease. Pretty interesting stuff :wink:

Horsefeathers, I feel so bad for you about Rocco :( I don't blame you for being paranoid. Your right Horsefeathers, it must be that he is getting upset and running back and forth barking. If not barking (my dogs arnt the biggest barkers) then he is still getting upset. What I was doing (my routine) was come home, bring in the dogs, feed them, let them settle for about an hour or two, then take them for a walk. The vet told me to come home, take dogs for walk, then settle, then feed a smallish raw meal. He said change my routine and he STRONGLY advised I don't leave Kavik out during the day. I don't know what to do, every one in my house works a 8 hour day and some times it can be up to 10 hours cause I like some times to stop and pick things up after work. I don't know any one who does dog walking, plus I don't think Id trust some one to take Kavik out. Hes a rescue Husky and is kinda distrustful of most people. If he ever got off lead with a stranger he would take off and never come back :( a dog walker would probably have a really hard time getting him out of the house...he would go to my bed and not move. I know this cause even members of my family can't get him out of my room when Im not at home. My sister has tried to take him out with my other dogs for a pee when Im not there and he won't budge unless Im there. I can't even get home on lunch to feed him a mini meal. My work only gives a half hour lunch and I live almost an hour away from work. I thought about a doggy day care, but he hates going to a strange kennel. He likes the kennel I have for him and my other dogs. He doesnt really care for other people and dogs. I know that wouldn't work at all, hes just not that type of dog. My other Husky's would make out fine. I think Kavik is a highly emotional dog that kept things bottled up inside cause I never knew he was stressed. Any how, Ill find a way to work this out I just have to stop over analizing every thing. The stuff the vet gave me for gas works great, he also mentioned that you can stick a tube down a bloating dogs throat to get rid of excess gas :o he told me that its really hard to mistakenly get it down the lung because the dog will swallow and get it down the right passage. He said the only danger is the dog biting the tube in half. Thanks for listening. Any suggestions for feeding raw diet I am all ears. And any book suggestions I would love to hear them. :wink:

:o :o I havent a clue how to go about this. My Vet gave me some recipes from his copy of Dr pitcern and Dr billinghurst. He said that Billinghurst is long term and pitcern is for getting started. :( He said I could continue with kibble, but my dog has bloated twice again this week back on his normal kibble :( I really thought it was the Turkey in the Innova. My Vet (and TDG) told me that no its really not the Turkey. My Vet said that the only reason my dogs belly is not flipping is because of the shape of his body :o He said some thing like dogs with shorter bodies and wide chests don't flip as easily as say a Great Dane or Standard Poodle. But, he said where he has bloated so many times that his chances of flipping is really getting high. The Vet really wants me to feed raw and feed 3 meals a day. One meal he wants low glemidex carbs and raw meat, mid meal he want only raw meaty bones and supper meat muscle, organ meat and carbs and every thing else like veggies, fruit, garlic (he said I should give a clove a day). He gave me tons of suggestions and he seems really concerned about Kavik. He said to save money I can feed the Kibble but make sure its fed at a time when there will be no stress for my dog. Any how, found out that there has been a neighbors dog coming around the kennel during the day when Im gone. I just found the tracks when we had a snow storm. I asked the vet and he said this may have been the stress factor that broke the camels back. Its sad that this had to happen and its baffling how a dog wandering my property could cause my Kavik to have such stress. I know that this is what it is cause no one lets there dogs run, these people just moved here and let their dog run. Kavik never started bloating til these people moved here. Ironic. I never in a million years could imagine that stress could cause a dog to bloat. The vet tried to explain that it doesnt just happen like that that there is an underlaying reason as well like yeast and stuff. Oh yea, I have to feed Kavik yogurt every day without added fruit for some reason only ground wheat germ or flax seed. Any way just had to share that I was mouthing off about Innova for no reason. I am very sorry :oops:

[quote]The mature, sedate Great Pyrenees which you have seen did not just materialize suddenly. It grew from a cuddly, lovable ball of fluff which at 8-12 weeks of age is most captivating. From puppyhood to adulthood is a great distance and a considerable time. As a breed they are remarkably healthy and long lived. They have few major genetic problems and usually live to be 10-12 years old. Pyrs combine a great intelligence with a deep devotion to family and home, and a natural-born instinct to guard and protect. While trustworthy, affectionate, gentle and tractable, they can become, when and if the need arises, protective guardians of their family and their territory. Thus, they command respect as watch dogs as well as admiration as pets. Adult Pyrs are placid by nature and calm in the house, enjoying quiet periods in which to rest and sleep. But they are a large breed and as such are not always suited to life in a small apartment or urban setting with little yard space and lots of activity around. They want their life to be consistent and predictable. The addition of a dog to your family is a major decision and deserves a great deal of time and thought. A Great Pyrenees is placid by nature, so despite their size, they are excellent house dogs. Yes, an adult Pyr is a beautiful, calm dog, but there are other considerations-have you thought of these? Considerations Are you physically able to handle a very large dog? Basically gentle, they are strong, and during the phases of puppyhood can be a real challenge. Does dog hair around the house bother you? If so, forget the Pyrenees. While with routine grooming they are not much different than any other breed, they do shed and there are white hairs in Pyr homes and on Pyr people. A Pyr needs love and attention on a daily basis. Are you and your family able to provide this? A lonesome Pyr is a bored dog, and a bored dog can become destructive. Great Pyrenees are at heart guard dogs and members of the great family of livestock guardian dogs. As such, they share with them certain strong characteristics. Pyrs were bred to be left alone with the sheep up in the mountain valleys. They are a guard dog by instinct, not by training. Their basic personality is different from most breeds, since most breeds were bred to take commands from people, while Pyrs were bred to work on their own. A Great Pyrenees is an intelligent, sometimes willful animal. They have minds of their own and are not easily obedience trained. Things that you consider important may not be the same things your Pyrenees considers important. Many are almost cat-like, in their independence. If you require a dog who will be a great "off-leash" companion for your outdoor activities, if you want a dog who will follow your every command, or if you want a competition obedience dog, the Pyrenees is probably not for you. Do you have room for a Pyr? They are large and must be confined in a well fenced area, or they will exercise their powerful instinct to establish and patrol a large territory. When out of the fence they must be kept on lead at all times. Like all livestock guardian breeds, Great Pyrenees are barkers, especially at night. The amount of barking varies from individual to individual, but the instinct is there and in some cases can cause major problems. Most Great Pyrenees in urban or suburban settings must be kept indoors at night. The Great Pyrenees is a guard dog and as such cannot be expected to welcome uninvited intrusions onto your property. They will accept anyone whom you invite into your home. They are not "attack" dogs, but can be very intimidating to the surprised visitor. It is an owner's obligation to maintain a Great Pyrenees so that his guarding instincts can be exercised in a responsible way.[/quote]

Its cuter than most pugs Ive seen. Now thats a funny looking dog breed :lol:

[url]http://www.petpromiseinc.com/[/url]

My dog can't tolerate the Turkey in it. He bloated up and got really gassy from it. I had to take him off and put him back on wellness, that was I think about a week ago and no more gas. I heard its a great product (reason I tried it), but of course not for every dog.

I would never own an APBT, I just find that they can be really sweet. But, when they attack, they really go for it not just a bite like most other breeds. Believe me, Ive been on the receiving end and was attacked by a CGC, temperment tested and high scored APBT from excellent lines. I also don't like the fact that they are for the most part dog aggressive. I have met way too many Pits I wouldn't trust too much and most have wonderful owners. I don't really like any of the bull breeds, Ill stick to my husky's. I don't think I would ever own any sight hounds ever either. But, come to rescue and mixed breed, most times they can have some of their working abilities watered down a tad bit. I would probably still rescue any kind of mix. My personal fav's are the German Shepherd/Husky mixes, they are the easiest to train and nice dispostion. At least all of the ones I met and we have tons of these mixes in my neck of the woods. :wink:

Without even seeing your dog I know what kind of dog you must have. A "nice" dog. :lol:

Here is some interesting info on bloat. [quote]What causes gastric dilatation and volvulus? There is not one particular activity that leads to the development of GDV. It appears that it occurs as a combination of events. Studies of the stomach gas that occurs in dilatation have shown that it is similar to the composition of normal room air suggesting that the dilatation occurs as a result of swallowing air. All dogs, and people for that matter, swallow air, but normally we eructate (burp) and release this air and it is not a problem. For some reason that scientists have not yet determined, these dogs that develop bloat do not release this swallowed gas. There is currently several studies looking into what happens physiologically in these dogs that develop GDV. Through previous studies, there are several different factors that increase the likelihood of developing the disease. They are: being a male, being underweight, eating only one meal a day, eating at a faster rate, and being a fearful or nervous dog. What are the symptoms? The symptoms include restlessness, pacing, rapid onset of abdominal distension, rapid shallow breathing, and nonproductive vomiting and retching. Profuse salivation may indicate severe pain. If the dog's condition continues to deteriorate, especially if volvulus has occurred, the dog may go into shock and become pale, have a weak pulse, and a rapid heart rate. A dog with gastric dilatation without volvulus can show all of these symptoms, but the more severe symptoms are likely to occur in dogs with both dilatation and volvulus. How is gastric dilatation and volvulus treated? Even with treatment, as many as 25-30% of dogs with GDV die. When the dog is presented to the hospital his condition is assessed and depending on the severity of the condition, one of a number of different treatment protocols are instituted. Usually intravenous catheters are placed and fluids are administered. Then the stomach is decompressed either by passing a stomach tube or inserting a large needle into the stomach and releasing the gas. After the animal is stabilized, x-rays are taken to determine whether or not a volvulus is present. If a volvulus is present, then surgery is performed to correct the volvulus. The stomach is permanently stitched to the abdominal wall to prevent reoccurrence and then the animal is monitored and treated, as needed, based upon the symptoms. Animals that develop just dilatation are at a much greater risk of developing dilatation and volvulus in the future, and many times the surgery to attach the stomach permanently is performed to prevent this from happening. Because this surgery is difficult and invariably happens at night, many veterinarians will decompress the stomach and treat the patient supportingly and refer them to a specialty practice, or wait until morning when adequate help is available to assist with the surgery. Dogs with gastric dilatation and volvulus can develop severe complications including bleeding disorders, heart arrhythmias, and peritonitis. How is gastric dilatation and volvulus prevented? Despite adopting all of the recommendations listed below, a dog may still develop GDV. Because of the genetic link involved with this disease, prospective pet owners should question if there is a history of GDV in the lineage of any puppy that is from a breed listed as high risk. In addition, the following recommendations should be followed: Large dogs should be fed two or three times daily, rather than once a day. Owners of susceptible breeds should be aware of the early symptoms of bloat. Owners of susceptible breeds should develop a good working relationship with a local veterinarian in case emergency care is needed. Water should be available at all times, but should be limited immediately after feeding. Vigorous exercise, excitement, and stress should be avoided one hour before and two hours after meals. Some veterinarians recommend the use of elevated feeders for dogs susceptible to bloat. Diet changes should be made gradually over a period of three to five days. Susceptible dogs should be fed individually and, if possible in a quiet location. Dogs that have survived bloat are at an increased risk for future episodes; therefore prophylaxis in the form of preventive surgery or medical management should be discussed with the veterinarian. Summary Bloat is a life threatening condition that most commonly affects large-breed, deep-chested dogs over two years of age. Owners of susceptible breeds should be knowledgeable about the symptoms of the disease, since early and prompt treatment can greatly improve the outcome. By following the preventive measures recommended, pet owners can further reduce the likelihood of their pet developing this devastating problem.[/quote] I have a Husky that didn't flip its belly when he bloated, but he did get excess gas which could have flipped his belly. The Vet gave me these great pills to give to my dog if he shows any signs of getting gassy. I can tell when he is starting to bloat he starts drooling and licks his lips excessively and is restless. I give him these gas pills and it takes the gas right away. My dog bloated on a high superior qualtiy food called innova. The first ingredient is Turkey, from what I have read Turkey is really really gassy and can cause bloat in some bloat prone dogs. I put him back in Wellness and hes doing great and hasnt gotten gassy since. The Vet also told me not to feed any gassy foods like broccoli, brussel sprouts, cualiflower and some other veggies which can be gassy. Another thing large breeds are really prone to is bone cancer. So be really careful with the diet and make sure there are quality ingredients with no additives and preservatives. Feed foods like omega 3 and vitamin E and other antioxidants to take care of free radical. Its the free radicals that most times cause the start of cancer. Good luck and you are wonderful rescueing an adult dog. :wink:

I think what makes me most mad is that this pet store used to sell and display pups from the local shelter. It was really nice when they did that. They had kittens and pups and adult dogs and cats (the adults roamed the store). Then new mangement took over and they brought in these purebred pups from puppy mills. I know the puppy mill they come from, the local animal control can't shut them down cause they just keep an inch above the animal housing laws. They do give their old dogs that can't breed any more to the local animal control when they can't use them any more. Kinda an unspoken agreement between them. And Roo, I know there is really nothing we can do. Its just so maddening to see a once wonderful pet store go commerical and sell the purebreds instead of helping local shelter animals. That another thing I wished I would have said. Its a vicous cycle that an ordinary person like me can't stop. But, heck I can protest in the meanwhile :lol: [quote]The general public really think they are SAVING these poor babies but it its a viscious circle as we all know, where do they go? what happens to them? are they fed correctly? are they loved, wormed, vaccicnated? But what can we do? What happens to the pups? Is buying them wrong?[/quote] And Roo that makes total sense. What does happen to the pups if they don't sell them? are they put to sleep, taken back to the puppy mill for breeding? are these people actually saving the pups from death? I didnt have enoug information before getting on my soapbox. Im so embarressed, I know Im probably not allowed in there again. Any way, thanks every one for supporting me in my standing on the soapbox in the pet store. I just wish there was really some thing I could do.

Thanks Courtnek, what a great idea. So, tammy youve been kicked out from a petstore to. Maybe we could start a support group :lol:

Yep, your right Allamericanpup. She did seem more concerned about the sale than the pups well being. They try to act like they care all fussing over the puppy. But, I know that maybe they do care about the pup, maybe they don't know where the pups come from, maybe they think they do come from reputable breeders, maybe they thought I was a crazy nut just being an irrate customer. Most of the employees are just kids in high school or in University, so maybe they just don't know where the pups come from and think Im a looney toon.