__crazy_canine__

Good point, DP, and I completely agree.

Yeah there were plenty of man-biters that were bred. Not acceptable. A lot of the greats in the APBT bred dogs with human aggressive which is awful but they did produce some of the finest Ch and/or ROM dogs that supply the bloodlines for most of the dogs today. Anyway, dogmen have different standards for their dogs and for their practices in the pit. Some of them are idiots when it comes to matches. Some of them are idiots when it comes to breeding. While others have much higher standards and wont breed man-biters and will pick up their dog (in the pit) when they fear for their health. One of those people would be Hmmmm. I think a more correct statement would be that "Gamebred APBTs[i], that are bred correctly, usually[/i] dont have problems with human aggression. :wink:

Woohoo I have a dog now so I can finally add to the list. :lol: Adding my mutt. 1 Akita 3 Alaskan Malamute 2 American Cocker Spaniels 1 American Eskimo 3 Australian Shepherd 8 1/2 American Pit Bull Terriers 4 American Staffordshire Terriers 1 Anatolian Shepherd Dog 1 Basset Hound 1 Beagle 1 Belgian Sheepdog 5 Border Collie 2 British Bulldogs 1 Boston Terrier 3 Bull Terriers 1 Boxer 1 Cairn Terrier 1 Cardigan Welsh Corgi 5 Chihuahuas 2 Chinese Cresteds 1 Cane Corso 2 Doberman Pinscher 1 English Setter 3 English Springer Spaniels 1 Flatcoated Retriver 7 German Shepherd 1 Golden Retriever 2 Great Dane 2 Hungarian Vizslas 1 Irish Wolfhound 1 Irish Setter 2 Jack Russell Terriers 2 Labrador Retriever 3 Lhasa Apsos 1 Maltese 39 Mixed breed dogs 4 Newfoundlands 2 Pembroke Welsh Corgis 1 Pomeranian 1 Rat Terrier 1 Rough Collie 8 Rottweilers 4 Saint Bernards 1 Samoyed 3 Shar-pei 1 Sheltie 2 Shiba Inus 2 Staffordshire Bull Terriers 2 Standard Poodles 3 Toy Poodle 1 West Highland Terrier

Aw Mouse, Im so sorry. :cry: I wish you and Gladis to have the best time while youre still together.

Ummm, seems to me youve been here long enough to know youre going to be interrogated about your breeding practices. :wink: Dont get so defensive. So what happened that some pups dont have any homes lined up?

Heh, I [i]just[/i] got this in an email. Love it.

So sorry about your animals Tammy. :cry: Youre strong to make it through all this chaos. You did the right thing. *hugs*

Id just like to say that, I think, LC's point was she doesnt agree with changing a breed just to suit people at this time. Just like a fad. I agree. Certain traits in a dog make it what it is, and I dont think we should change that, IMO. BM did make a valid point though.

I agree! Go Ravyn!

DP, we kind of already did that. The American Staffordshire Terrier, remember? :wink: I like AmStaffs but right now its sad what breeding has done to them! :x Some of them are STILL dog-aggressive, they arent anywhere NEAR as agile as theyre supposed to be, etc. etc. I dont mind them and would love to have one if I were leaning towards more of a bulldog, but Im not. Besides, AmStaffs have WAY more health problems than APBTs. Im sure in the future we will be able to have the game APBT without fighting them. My guess is science will help us with that. Lets hope!

Thank you! :D

Oh no, K is reading this! :scared:

Well, all that matters is you think my post was articulate! :lol: I could care less if people disagree with me. I expect it so whatever. :P

No, youre more than just a ho, Jess, youre a ho-bag. Thats much more important! :wink:

:roflt:

Really nothing against either of them.... *thinks* Oh Jess, I forgot to tell you Kiwi spread a rumor about you having a dick and Hmmmm told all of your lovers. :P :lol: Ok, now you have a reason to fight!

:lol: Its not that bad, is it? Were just debating... (no flaming anymore :P ) although I hate how everything always turns into something about dog fighting. :x

I love it! :lol:

Thanks Michele! :) [quote name='DogPaddle'][quote] I think if someone cant see the difference between those ways, that person is being ignorant. [/quote] In what way do you mean ignorant? It has always really pissed me off when people decide that because I don't agree with them I am either: a) too stupid to get it b) don't know what I'm talking about c) trying to be difficult I have read all of Hmmmm's explanations. I have done plenty of independent research including sources that are not anti dog fighting. I am an intelligent and compassionate person and I didn't come to the same conclusion as you - so that makes me ignorant? [b]Is the way Hmmmm fights her dogs different from the way other people do - yes;[/b] does that make it a different thing altogether - no. And it doesn't make it right just because its different, its still dog fighting and in my own opinion, that isn't cool. edited to be bit more diplomatic :lol:[/quote] Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I bolded what I meant people are ignorant for not realizing. There is a big difference between what she and other professionals do and all those "gangsters" do. I wouldnt call someone ignorant for disagreeing with what Hmmmm does. Im not [i]that[/i] closed-minded! :lol: I really am very open-minded. Being here, you have to be. :wink: [quote name='bk_blue'] am sure this has been asked before, but anyway...why do we need "game" dogs? What is their purpose? Before you start rabbiting on about how there are lots of other dog breeds that have no particular purpose or are so far removed from their original purpose that it may as well not count, why do you need a dog-aggressive dog that you can't even keep legally in most parts of the world, or if you can keep them, are subject to so many restrictions it's not worth the effort? That if said dog makes one false move that may not be considered so bad in a different dog breed, it's curtains for that dog? That you have to keep separated from your other dogs, if you have them, most of the time? Why do you need a dog, if it is to be kept so true to the original intentions of the founders of the breed, needs to be *fought* to be considered worthy? Where is the allure in that? I will reiterate that dog fighting, no matter how much you try to pretty it up and say, "awww, it's done as humanely as possible etc etc etc", is still dog fighting and it's still illegal. Just like rape. Rape is rape, no matter if it's because you're drunk or tired and can't be bothered fighting your boyfriend off or if some knife-wielding maniac grabs you down a dark alley.[/quote] I think its worth it to have game dogs despite all the BS(L) and bad publicity pits are getting. Besides its not the properly bred APBTs doing the biting and really its usually not even APBTs at all. Just mixes and other dogs being mislabeled. Game APBTs make great working dogs and companions. Not all of them are dog-aggressive either. Hmmmm stated before that there are dogs that know when to fight and when not to. Its definitely a disaster in the wrong hands but so are a lot of breeds. In the right hands you wouldnt have to worry about them making "one false move" because a responsible person wouldnt allow it to happen. As Ive stated before, rolling a dog isnt as bad as you would think. Yes it is illegal and yes it is almost always looked down upon, but in order to keep the REAL APBT alive, it must be done. Now I have no problem with allowing the breed to die-out or only breed gamebred dogs, but not prove gameness, because I have never met an [i]actual[/i] APBT. Ive met what, I figure, is close to the real thing, but considering he lost a fight, Im assuming hes not game. If I ever do meet the real thing, Im afraid there wont be any going back! :lol: I cried at the pics of Tage Hmmmm posted so I cant even imagine how much I would cry when I actually witness all their amazing personality. I understand that you all have an image of your head of fighting and its disturbing, I know, but thats not what rolling is like. In matches, sure dogs can get injured, or even killed, but I know Hmmmm would pull her dog if she thought her dog was going to die. From reading, I know not all dogmen are like that but I trust what she has said about what she does. Maybe I shouldnt, but I respect that shes trying to keep the real Pit Bull alive and thriving. Not too long ago I thought the same thing as the rest of you but after talking with her, things changed.

Ok, see now, was that so hard??? :lol: It makes a lot more sense that you bred her earlier after your experience with Kobi. I understand you were worried. Im still not saying I think you did the right thing but Im not going to comment on that because I dont really know for sure about BTs and breeding. Thank you for telling the whole story.

No, I just hinted at for no reason at all :roll: 8)

And yet you still dont say why you came to the decision to breed Nala... :-?

I dont think the thread should be locked personally. Let people say what they have to on the subject, or it will be brought up again Im sure. Lets just keep away from the name-calling alright? In response to AAP: Youre right, dogfighting is dogfighting. Youre right that some people think there are good and bad ways to go about it. I am one of those people. I think if someone cant see the difference between those ways, that person is being ignorant. There are people who claim to be doing it the "right" way too but arent. A lot of the old, famous fighters werent doing what they were supposed to as far as bettering the breed but I believe Hmmmm is. She doesnt allow man-biters to be bred and sincerely cares about her dogs' wellbeing. If she knew her dog was going to die, she would pull it out of the match. Although in most cases, things happen so quickly its hard to make the right judgement. People dont realize that rolling a dog isnt as bad as you would think. If done correctly, both dogs can come out of it just as they were before the fight. To me, a Pit Bull being game is its definition. Without it, its not an APBT. There are plenty of mixes, rescues, and BYB pits out there who make good pets. All of them are "game", but not anywhere near enough to be considered game by dogmen. See, lots of terriers and bulldogs are game but not to the extent that APBTs are being bred for. Thats what makes them so special. I think its important to preserve that trait as long as possible, and I respect the people who do it correctly. Now, there are people who are doing so without fighting rolling their dogs. I respect that even more. IMO, there is a certain level of gameness, one that I suspect all dogmen want in their dogs, that can only be testing through fighting but I think a dog can be labeled as "game" through other ways also. I agree with your last 2 paragraphs. :D :wink: To Kiwi: You are being secretive! Breeding a bitch under 2 years will open a HUGE can of worms anyway so what difference does it make if you tell us the whole story? Maybe everyone will understand after you explain it to us... then again, maybe not. I stand by my beliefs. You arent being singled out. Its just that most of the people who have posted tend to understand Hmmmm's situation more than yours. Another reason to just post the whole story. Its not ok for either of you to be calling each other names.... even if its true. Im a bitch but its not ok for you to call me it when were arguing! :lol: The thing is most people here happen to think anyone for whatever reason who breeds a bitch under 2 years is a BYB... so they arent going to argue about it if they agree. Yeah, we all know Hmmmm is a "dog-fighter" but it has a lot more meaning behind it than that, at least to me.

yes, oh mighty ModGod! :modla:

Kiwi, why do you want Hmmmm banned? Because she fights her dogs? Well, then why dont we ban you for breeding a bitch under two years of age? That is a BYB to a lot of people here so maybe you should just be banned too. You are throwing stones in a glass house as well. No one jumped on Hmmmm's calling Kiwi a BYB because (at least this is my reason) I agree! I dont want to ban any of the regulars here, and yes, that means I treat newbies differently. If youre too lazy to go and answer the questions yourself Ill answer them. Yes, Hmmmm health tests and her dogs are perfectly healthy, otherwise will not be bred. Her dogs are more healthy than yours, I can almost promise it! I dont know what specific tests, but she said she tests for everything. Gee, you say you would report her if she told you her information... and then you wonder why she wont post it? Yeah, shes doing something illegal, but shes doing it for the right reasons.