MiniAussies Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 This is what I own. I have two of these little angels and they are just as good as the regular size. They are also known as the North American Shepherd. Date of origin is 1968. They live about 14 years. The name of this breed was established in 1993. This breed is an Australian Shepherd with no other breeds introduced so it does enjoy herding small animals, mainly ducks and other birds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 No offense meant but: I find it hard to believe that no other breeds were introduced to *produce these miniatures. If a breeder did produce a smaller version of the standard, it would take YEARS to produce the volume or quantity of the "Mini-Aussies" that are around today. I'm not being hateful, really. Just trying to find proof, genetic proof, that one day long ago -- one miniature pup was produced from standard sized parents and the multitude that are in existence today are all from that bloodline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerakeen Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Have to agree with Hobbit here. To produce the quantity that are around today must have involved 'other' factors. To establish any line takes a minimum of 5 generations which is equivalant to 10 or more years. The breed has only been around (according to your figures) for 35 years. That's a small amount of time in the big scheme of things. Presumeable, then, the dogs that are being bred are being registered as Australian Shepherds as they are 'pure bred'? Bec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckychaos Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 The Australian Shepherd: The history of the North American/Miniature Australian Shepherd actually begins with the history of the Australian Shepherd. Though most facts are shrouded in time, the most commonly held belief on the origins of the Aussie begin in the late 1800 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 I'm still looking for the genetic proof. Many Aussie's are being crossed with Shelties and registered with the NSDR (National Stock Dog Registry) as "Miniature" Aussies (and called fullblood Aussies). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 .......and, IF they've been around for this many years, then why didn't the AKC recognize them along with the standard sized Aussie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Mama Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Hobbit - I agree with you that I am skeptical of the "mini" aussie. Remember thought that the AKC is not the last word in breeds and is often more motivated by politics than anything else. Why did they decide to recognize the "Parson" Russell Terrier but not the Jack Russell Terrier? The only difference is the height of the leg. Sorta like 13 and 15 inch beagles. Same dog all in all. It all comes down to politics. The JRTAA got in their pocket and now the AKC goes along with whatever they want. The JRTCA on the other hand just seperates them into two seperate classes for earth dog competitions as one may have an advantage over the other, but all are accepted equally. With all the "designer" breeds it is difficult to destinguish which is real and which is not. Someone has been crossing min pins with jacks to get "mini" jacks. We all know that they are really mixes. I guess what would convince me would be pedigrees. If you can prove that there have been multiple generations of this dog breed without mixing in another breed, then I would say okay. All in all AKC acceptance doesn' t mean it is or is not a breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 [quote=Mary's Mama]Hobbit - I agree with you that I am skeptical of the "mini" aussie. Remember thought that the AKC is not the last word in breeds and is often more motivated by politics than anything else. [b][color=red]Boy you are so right! I am not a fan of the AKC because of their underhanded motives. My question was questioning the fact that the AKC saw the Aussie's were becoming a money making deal and they capitalized on them by recognizing them as a breed (like they are the ONLY power that can do this! :roll: ). BUT, they didn't recognize the *Mini-version, which by far is more the money maker than the standard size. Money and politics motives the AKC. [/color][/b] I guess what would convince me would be pedigrees. If you can prove that there have been multiple generations of this dog breed without mixing in another breed, then I would say okay. [color=darkred][b]Just because a certain sire is listed, doesn't mean that HE is the correct sire! :-? . There is a man in Kentucky that breeds Aussies. I know for a fact that he crosses his Aussie bitches with Border Collies to put the herdability BACK into the Aussie. He uses the papers from an Aussie male (living and deceased) and registers all his pups as fullblood Aussies. Complaints have been filed and proof provided, even by his own family --- nothing has ever been done about it. [/b][/color] All in all AKC acceptance doesn' t mean it is or is not a breed. [b][color=red] Right and I am very (VERY) vocal about this, being that I've got Australian Kelpies (the working kind, not the show kind). We have our own registry and refuse to allow the AKC to recognize the working Kelpie as a breed. They are a breed and don't need the blessing from AKC to say they are.[/color][/b] [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Mama Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 [quote name='Hobbit'][color=darkred][b]Just because a certain sire is listed, doesn't mean that HE is the correct sire! :-? . There is a man in Kentucky that breeds Aussies. I know for a fact that he crosses his Aussie bitches with Border Collies to put the herdability BACK into the Aussie. He uses the papers from an Aussie male (living and deceased) and registers all his pups as fullblood Aussies. Complaints have been filed and proof provided, even by his own family --- nothing has ever been done about it. [/b][/color][/quote] See that is why registering with the AKC is a load of crap! I am sure there are a lot of good, respectable, honest breeder out there that register with AKC however it only takes one bad apple to ruin the reputation of the whole. It is too bad the Club allows this to happen. I am with you. JRTCA tried for years to keep the Jack out of the AKC so they could retain their working history. That is one of the reasons I love the breed. Mine dont work, they are hunting rejects LOL!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniAussies Posted April 9, 2003 Author Share Posted April 9, 2003 You can look it up Hobbit. You don't have to believe me but I know I am correct here. The first puppies were bred from two very small purebred Austrlian Shepherds. I am also a little annoyed that you put the breeds name in ""'s. It is a real breed, not made-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Mama Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 I found this online at: [url]http://hometown.aol.com/miniaussie/Frames1.htm[/url] "Are the Miniature Australian Shepherd and Australian Shepherd separate breeds? Responsible mini Aussie breeders continue to selectively cross to ASCA, AKC and NSDR registered Australian Shepherds and the dogs which are the product of such crosses breed true to breed type and temperament. If Aussies and mini Aussies were truly separate breeds, this level of consistency would not be immediately achievable. In my opinion, the genetic pools of these two types are not differentiated enough to earn the status of separate breeds and in fact, it would greatly benefit the mini Aussie if no distinction is made. " So it seems to be to be a lot like Parson and Puddin Jacks. They have just been selectively breed for a specific characteristic within the breed. Please know that we are not trying to insult you it is just that many people try to pass dogs off as something they are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniAussies Posted April 9, 2003 Author Share Posted April 9, 2003 Well, then they are wrong trying to pass something off as something it's not. BUT... MY dogs are a true breed. I agree with you on the AKC thing. I dispise AKC. They only just recongnized the Toy Fox Terrier. The TFT is like the Mini Aussie in a way. It is like a branch from a breed. I think (?) Anyway, my dogs are a real breed. Pure Aussie Shepherd. There is always room for a healthy debate in my mind anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 How can they be a breed, if they are not crossed with something else? IF genetically they are the same, then they are the same breed and not different. This would be like me having small ACD pups and saying they are a different breed --- just because they are smaller than standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Foster Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 Hobbitt, Everyone once in awhile you will see ads for mini acd's... makes you want :snipersmile: someone There is no such thing as mini acd's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniAussies Posted April 10, 2003 Author Share Posted April 10, 2003 THEY ARE A BREED!!! There are TOY POODLES, and they are a breed. There are MINI SCHNAUZERS and they are a breed. MY DOGS ARE A REAL BREED!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniAussies Posted April 10, 2003 Author Share Posted April 10, 2003 [url]http://members.aol.com/MiniAussie/Frames1.htm[/url] This has History of my breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 [quote name='Foster']Hobbitt, Everyone once in awhile you will see ads for mini acd's... makes you want :snipersmile: someone There is no such thing as mini acd's[/quote] Foster --- I pm'ed you on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 [quote name='MiniAussies']THEY ARE A BREED!!! There are TOY POODLES, and they are a breed. There are MINI SCHNAUZERS and they are a breed. MY DOGS ARE A REAL BREED!!![/quote] I still stand by my first post. If they are fullblood Australian Shepherd, then they are NOT a different breed (from the Australian Shepherd). IF they are in fact a "different" breed from the Australian Shepherd, then they [b]MUST[/b] be crossed with another breed to make them a DIFFERENT BREED! This is genetics, not me just saying this. If you dont' understand genetics, then you can't understand this. I am not saying that your *Mini-Aussie's are substandard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniAussies Posted April 12, 2003 Author Share Posted April 12, 2003 And I stand by MY POSTS! Being hard-headed isn't good. They are real! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniAussies Posted April 12, 2003 Author Share Posted April 12, 2003 I have brought myself to a compromise here. I will say that Miniature Australian Shepherds are a branch of Australian Shepherds. So there! But Hobbit, I don't want to continue to debate with you, a little debate I said is alright, but a lot can hurt a friendship! Hobbit, I suggest looking into as many MAS website as you can to understand them better. They are recognized as well and that is a fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 [quote name='MiniAussies']I have brought myself to a compromise here. I will say that Miniature Australian Shepherds are a branch of Australian Shepherds. So there! But Hobbit, I don't want to continue to debate with you, a little debate I said is alright, but a lot can hurt a friendship! Hobbit, I suggest looking into as many MAS website as you can to understand them better. They are recognized as well and that is a fact.[/quote] [b]And I suggest that you read and UNDERSTAND genetics.[/b] I don't care if they are recognized or not. The volume of "Miniature Aussie's" that are in existence today, is an indication that they did not evolve from two parents --- this is genetically not possible. It's an indication that they are crossed with another breed, like the Sheltie, Corgis or other small breed dog----and THAT makes them a breed unto themselves. The lady that allegedly started breeding Aussies had "Rodeo" Aussie's. Many, MANY of those Aussies were crossed with a smaller breed dog, whether you want to believe it or not. It obvious you know nothing about genetics. I'm not saying that because they are cross bred they are substandard. When AKC recognized the Aussie, this started their demise as a herding dog. They have been continually bred for "LOOKS" and NOT their herding instinct (herding has not even been considered in many breeding programs of Aussie's). It is hard to find an Aussie today that will even look toward livestock. There are still some of the old Los Rocosa and Slash V lines around that are being bred specifically for what they were created for in the first place.......HERDING. I am very aware of the history of these dogs, as well as other herding bred dogs ---- we use MANY (herding dogs) on the ranch. I am not the only one that has this mind set about the "Mini-A's", just not everyone is willing to speak up. Again, I am not calling YOUR dogs substandard, I would never, ever, say that about ANY dog --- no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 [quote name='MiniAussies']And I stand by MY POSTS! Being hard-headed isn't good. [color=red][b]Being hard-headed has NOTHING to do with it. Genetics has EVERYTHING to do with it. [/b][/color] They are real![/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniAussies Posted April 15, 2003 Author Share Posted April 15, 2003 Hobbit, I said this before and I'll say it again. I don't want to fight with you. This simple post has turned into a huge fight! That's not what I intended. I just wanted to get it out to anyone who had the wrong idea that I didn't go out and breed these dogs myself. I just wanted people to know I am just a dog owner. Please, can we just stop this nonsnse? :puppydogeyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 I have no idea what nonsense you are talking about. This isn't a hugh fight, you are the only one that preceives it as a confortation. I don't care either way if you are breeding Aussies. What you are saying is that that Mini-Aussie's are a DIFFERENT breed, a breed unto themselves --- HOW? A breeder breeds two standard Aussies and some of the offspring are small --- so they call it a "Mini" and say it's another breed. Genetically, this is NOT a new breed. It's just a smaller dog. Do you see why many people roll their eyes when someone says, "Oh, I have a Mini-Aussie, it's a new breed"?? Now, IF (which, is what makes more sense happened) Aussies breeders decided they wanted to try to make some money ---- they crossed their Aussie with a Corgis, Jack Russell, Sheltie, etc... then took that cross and crossed back onto the Aussie (crossed back and forth to achieve the height wanted) and sold all the standard sized and only kept the small ones ----- from there started a breeding program. The Mini history even says thru "intensive inbreeding" --- I would be really careful buying a dog that comes from intense inbreeding. Several breeders now don't bother to cross back to an Aussie. If it looks like an Aussie --- they sell it as a "Miniature". Another example: The names have been kept secret to avoid any slanderous remarks. A person, well versed in genetics, an ethical breeder --- bred for a litter of Australian Cattle Dogs. The resulting litter was 6 pups. Every puppy in the litter was smaller than normal, I mean REAL small (dwarf's actually). NOW --- do you think the small pups are another breed? NO, they are just small pups! The are MINIATURE in size, but NOT a different breed. Now, another lady (not ethical, but that's a different story) --- breed her ACD bitch to a Chihuahua and says the pups are MINIATURE HEELERS. They have the phenotype of the Heeler and the size of the Chihuahua. Maybe in a 100 years of perfection, she can call it a "NEW BREED". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniAussies Posted April 15, 2003 Author Share Posted April 15, 2003 WELL I AM TIRED OF HEARING WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY BECASUE IT'S WRONG. AGAIN, THIS THREAD IS OVER! :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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