Puppies! ...Now What?

[Guest Anonymous]

In case you haven't read my other post, I am fostering a pregnant dog found abandoned on the highway.

She had her puppies yesterday, there are ten cute little furballs. They seem to be doing fine but I have a few questions.

Since she is so thin, it's been suggested that I supplement her and the puppies with milk replacer made for orphan puppies. Someone else I talked to said I didn't need to. Should I or not?

She seems very nervous when I pick up a puppy. She watches me like she's afraid I'll hurt it and she doesn't want me to hold it. If I hold the puppy out to her she licks it a lot and also does this when I put the puppy back down. I'm wondering what I should do. Should I handle them at all, or wait a while? How much should I handle them? I want to make sure they are well socialized so they will be friendly and make good pets. Also they're just so cute that I want to hold them and play with them a lot. But I don't want to over do it and stress the mother out too much. What should I do?

[Guest Anonymous]

I can't answer your question about supplementing the pups, you should call a vet or local rescue/shelter who can give you more info.

You CAN help the mother by provide her with a constant supply of fresh water (adequate hydration is crucial) and plenty of top quality dog kibble. By this I do not mean a grocery store brand! They are packed with grain & cereal fillers for cheap manufacture, they are not good for any dog. Although Iams & Eukanuba are far from the best (despite what many vets have been conned into believing by sales reps & the media) they are far superior to grocery store slop. Better yet would be something like Canidae, Innova or Wysong. If there is a feed store anywhere near you they are your best bet. You can also supplement with "people food" such as plain old tuna fish, eggs (soft boiled, whites should be cooked, yolks runny) raw carrots and due to her current poor condition I would definitely provide a daily multivitamin formulated for dogs which you can buy anywhere pet supplies are sold. If the mothers nutritional status improves so will the pups.

I'm tickled to hear you are concerned about the pups socialization! It is important but for the first couple of weeks should be minimal if at all. Excessive handling will place undue stress on the mother & on the pups. When they are a few weeks old you can start interracting with them for a short period a couple of times a day. Overdoing it will actually make them fearful and prone to fear aggression. It could also endanger their lives if the mother feels they are threatened she may harm them herself. Better would be to pat & praise the mother when she nurses them (reinforces her "good mother" behavior).

I hope some of this helps. Good luck with your new babies, I'm just happy they found someone like you to care for them.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks so much for your help! I'm feeding Gypsy (the mom) Purina Puppy Chow, I hope that's good. I also gave her some liver tonight which she loved. I'll have to see about getting her vitamins.

Why are you so tickled? Is socialization something trivial that I don't need to worry about? Anyway I'll try to keep handling them to a minimum for a while like you said, and keep focusing on gaining her trust. Just a few minutes ago I was sitting with her and petting her and I petted the puppies a bit and she seemed fine with that. So I'll just take it slow so I don't stress anybody out. Thanks again for your help!

[Carolk9s]

I think you are doing a wonderful job there, I agree with Dana about backing off just a bit in picking the pups up. I think you hit on the right path by just stroking mom and then stroking the pups without actually picking them up yet. Mama dog is being very trusting considering she has only been around you for a short while. I also think Purina Puppy food is fine, supplementing with the types of things Dana mentioned will help. I am an advocate of raw treats, small amounts of fresh raw beef or chicken as well as canned tuna, salmon, or eggs-raw or cooked. SMALL amounts of cheese, lots of fat in cheese as well as protein. I supplement my dogs diets with the above, they especially like the raw stuff.
Is the shelter helping you with the cost of caring for Gypsy and her pups?

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]
On 2002-04-12 16:04, Meer wrote:
Why are you so tickled? Is socialization something trivial that I don't need to worry about? Anyway I'll try to keep handling them to a minimum for a while like you said, and keep focusing on gaining her trust. Just a few minutes ago I was sitting with her and petting her and I petted the puppies a bit and she seemed fine with that. So I'll just take it slow so I don't stress anybody out. Thanks again for your help!
[/quote]

I'm tickled because it is probably the most important factor in determining the future personality of the dog and it is the one many people completely overlook. An unsocialized pup will become an adult with major problems (fear-aggression, inability to bond with a human, etc). A socialized pup will be playful, curious & affectionate & will grow into a wonderful companion. This is important for ALL dogs but absolutely critical for a large, powerful type for obvious reasons! Breed & temperment of the parents are also indicators. From what you've said it sounds like the mother has a great temperment which is a wonderful sign for the pups.

If it is at all possible for you to keep them all together until they are about 8 weeks old please do so. This is the time they will learn important social skills from both their mother & from each other. Puppies separated from their litter too early often have problems with bite-inhibition (how to play "nice" without hurting others)later on. Also, although I would not allow this with any dog, especially if they are a large breed, do not allow them to "mouth" or play-bite people. Usually just yelling "ouch" and withdrawing from them when they do this will discourage the behaviour. What seems "cute" in a tiny puppy can be dangerous in a full grown dog. Play-biting with each other is fine, that is where they learn to have a "soft mouth" & not seriously hurt their playmates.

I probably sound a bit fanatical and I am because I have a rottweiler. The dog you have is (from what you've said) probably from a much easier to handle breed but any breed will only benefit from the same care. After all, why would anyone want to raise hostile little dogs either, right?

[Guest Anonymous]

Its not a bad idea to give both the puppies and mother a milk replacement. Feed it to the mother just like you would a bowl of water.
You really shouldnt handle the puppies too much. It puts your sent on them- which is why she licks them while you are holding them and when you put them down. Some mothers will turn pups away with a human scent on them. Sounds like she wont but its good to try to handle them as little as possible.
Something you can do to keep the cost of shots down is to go to your local "farmers store" or dog supply store and buy the shots yourself. Parvo is the most important at such a young age and its much cheaper to buy in bulk and do it yourself than to take them all to the vet. All you have to do to administer the shot is pull up the skin on the back of the neck and shoot it in slowly. Make sure there is no air in the needle!
Good luck with your pups!

[Guest Anonymous]

Parvo should not be given until the pups are at least 6 weeks old. If the shelter is not helping with the cost of these pups, please visit imom.org and see if you might qualify for some assistance. Unless you know what you are doing, administering vaccines would best be left to professionals. You could also speak with your vet ahead of time and request that he/she consider the situation when it comes to payment.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thank you everyone who has replied!

Dana, I'm glad you said 8 weeks is how long they should stay together because that's exactly what the shelter said. I'm glad you feel socialization is important. I feel it's important for any animal living with humans, and it's something I really enjoy doing! Sorry I misunderstood your meaning a bit there.

They said they will provide wormers when the pups are ready, I'll ask them about shots and other vet care.

So far everyone's doing good. Gypsy is still very thin, but thankfully the pups are nice and plump. There are two that are a bit smaller than the others, so I'll keep an extra eye on them.

My mom is a bit concerned about giving raw meat to her. She says it will make her sick. What are the advantages/disadvantages of raw vs cooked?

[Guest Anonymous]

Serving raw meat vs. cooked meat-
cooked meat looses much of the vitamins
raw meat doesnt
It doesnt hurt to feed raw meat. Just make sure to worm them every couple weeks- week 1/2 or so.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yes, raw is absolutely better! If you are interested in "natural" pet feeding you can find a good list of resources here: [url]http://www.willowglen.com/barf.htm[/url]

I think your dogs were truly blessed to have found you.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ok, I'll try to convince my mom not to cook the meat first.

Just wondering, how long after giving birth should she be bleeding? It's not bright red, and it's kinda gooey, not a constant discharge but pretty often. Is this normal?

[Guest Anonymous]

I've always had spayed dogs so I can't help much with this one. Based on what I know of HUMAN birthing it sounds like she may have an infection. I'll see if I can find some more info on this but if not I'd refer this one to a pro...vet or the folks at the shelter should be able to tell you.

I have seen cats birthed & no, that would not be normal. From what I've read I think post-partum infections are pretty common & especially in an animal as weak as this one was. If it is that she will need treatment and the sooner the better.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]
On 2002-04-11 19:29, Meer wrote:
snipShe had her puppies yesterday, there are ten cute little furballs. They seem to be doing fine but I have a few questions.

Since she is so thin, it's been suggested that I supplement her and the puppies with milk replacer made for orphan puppies. snip

As she is so thin I suggest you supplement her with goats milk along with the puppy food you are using. Canned or dry or fresh goats milk helps make the mother's milk come down and helps her give more nutritious milk. You can wean the pups on it too.
Ten pups is way too many for a poorly nourished dog to handle without some help in the nutrition end.
Normal dogs are nervous about pups being handled - the fact that you a relative stranger are not being attacked full out by her is an excellent testament to her super temperament! To help her with her post natal nerves I suggest adding in 500mg of vitamin c to her diet. I originally got the idea for this calming nervous moms from The Dog Owners Home Veterinary Handbook by Carlsen and Giffin (you should own a copy of this great book!)and tried it out and it worked great.
DO handle the pups but do not let them get chilled the first week as this could be fatal for them. Their first few days they cannot regulate their own temperature and rely on mom or the environment as a heat source. So handle gently for a short time each pup and put them right back with mom and tell her what an excellent girl she is :smile: Early stimulation and socilization is excellent for making pups grow up smart and friendly.
Plan on worming the pups and mom with a safe wormer something like Nemex starting at about 2 weeks old for the pups - no sense in feeding worms and its likely they all have them.
Start conniving for newspaper now as you are going to need lots really soon!

[Guest Anonymous]

Help me I don't know what to do! The humane society won't give my wormers until 6 weeks. I know they have worms, I've seen them (yuck). They also won't give them any shots or anything until I hand them over at 8 weeks. They also said that I don't need to supplement her and the pups.

My mom refuses to believe anybody but the shelter so she won't help me out at all. There is no way I can afford to take them to a vet. I thought the shelter would provide me with everything I needed for them but it seems not. I can afford to buy some milk replacer or goat's milk at least. How much are wormers? I'd really like to get rid of the worms as soon as posable but are you sure 2 weeks is safe? The humane society said not till 6 and my mom swears by that. I don't know who to believe!

[Guest Anonymous]

the safety of the wormer is dependent on the type you use
In my healthy pups I worm them at 2, 6 and 8-9 weeks with Nemex or Evict liquid wormer measured to the pup's exact weight to break the cycle of worm infestation - read the bottle of either of these products at your local pet supply. IMO Those worms are robbing mom and pups of vital nutrients they need and there is no sense feeding them your nice puppy food or letting them mature and encyst in the pups for later resurgence during times of stress. Mom needs to be wormed too as she is reinfecting herself each time she cleans the pups which reduces the nutrition she can provide the pups.
One of the problems with shelter staff is they usually only know how to deal with dumped off animals not litter raising. I do both so I feel I know what works to make the healthiest pups.
The goats milk is better than the artificial dog milk made of ingredients pups/dogs have a hard time digesting (like soy etc) I've used both and had pups that were dying on the replacer immediately rally when given goats milk instead.
Most pups will survive worm infestation so its not a disaster if you cannot worm them but worms are not the best thing for pups in terms of growth and even learning and brainpower.
its too early for shots to be any good much before 8 weeks as mom is nursing them but Suggest that the shelter do the shots and then give the pups a week to work up immunities before exposing them to the shelter environment. 8 weeks is aproximately a time for a fear period in pups so 9 weeks would not be a bad time to let the shelter have them.


[quote]
On 2002-04-16 17:34, Meer wrote:
Help me I don't know what to do! The humane society won't give my wormers until 6 weeks. I know they have worms, I've seen them (yuck). They also won't give them any shots or anything until I hand them over at 8 weeks. They also said that I don't need to supplement her and the pups.

My mom refuses to believe anybody but the shelter so she won't help me out at all. There is no way I can afford to take them to a vet. I thought the shelter would provide me with everything I needed for them but it seems not. I can afford to buy some milk replacer or goat's milk at least. How much are wormers? I'd really like to get rid of the worms as soon as posable but are you sure 2 weeks is safe? The humane society said not till 6 and my mom swears by that. I don't know who to believe!
[/quote]

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't know how I'm going to find their exact weight, all we have is an ordinary bathroom scale that's not that great.

I'm going to show my mom this post and see if I can convince her and the shelter about the shots at 8 weeks then waiting till 9 weeks.

Aside from these concerns, my little family seems to be going good. Gypsy seems to be getting more comfortable having me around the pups, I'm hoping soon I'll be able to hold them without her worrying. She's eating good, although still very skinny.

[Guest Anonymous]

you can get some vitamins an dont suppliment moms milk. she would be thin after having puppies because they took all the neutrients from her. Dont be afraid to pick up pups. the handling is neccessary. shell get used to it.