Stupid Question....

[Mary's Mama]

I hope this does not turn into an arguement and I sincerely hope you all will refrain at my request.

What does it mean for an APBT to be game? I only hear this term used by APBT folks. And Hmmm I hope you dont mind me quoting you but you said "I will NEVER breed for color OR conformation. Breeders doing that should leave the APBT alone and breed Am Staffs or something else." in another topic. Does that mean you only breed for gameness (or function) and structure (or form) is secondary?

Is gameness their tendency or ability to fight? If so, and you dont fight your dogs, then why breed for that?

I really am just trying to learn, I would like to understand much better than I do.

PLEASE DONT LET THIS TURN INTO AN ARGUEMENT ABOUT FIGHTING DOGS.

[Guest roo]

Mary's Momma :lol: No questions are stupid here :lol:

I am SURE they will be able to tell you without arguements.
it is actually a very very good question :D

[Guest Anonymous]

Let me give this a stab--
you are right as far your guess goes. the tenacity and never give up attitude is the quality called gameness. A game bred dog, it is as if it has no thought in its head that it can't do something. it will die before quitting anything not just fighting. weightpull, catch dogs, protection, shutzhund, agility, flyball, whatever the activity a game bred dog will give its all literally. hang time contests something that i have only seen at bull breed events, the dogs bite down on a stick/rope/log, what have you and are hoisted a few inches off the ground so they are basically hanging, its is not uncommon to see dogs hang for 45 mins to an hour. Springpoles a favorite for these dogs you actually have to stop them from playing with it because they wont stop on thier own, they will play to the point of of them getting sick. they are superior atheletes, unsurpassed.

In the ring a game dog will continue the fight through broken limbs, loss of blood, and constannt domination, no matter how badly they are losing they will want to continue the fight. In life a game dog is the ultimate family protector and a treasure to have around the family. It was the consistant game breeding that made the breed the icon that is has been for so long. it was just recently that popularity did what it did to these dogs. dont you think it strange that the dog was developed for fighting, thrived at the sport but was still a favorite of Americans and a symbol of our country at times of war at the same time? It is people with a splayed view of what gameness is got involved. they think that out and out aggression be it human or dog is a sign of a tough dog.

I dont have nor want a gamebred dog however i have much respect to them and the breeders for what they do for the breed, not to be confused with the actual fighting.

:black:

[courtnek]

Thank you Rott - I wanted to know this too

however,

what is a "shutzhund"?

:oops:

[Guest Anonymous]

Shutzhund is a german word meaning protection dog. The main focuses of the sport are tracking, OB, and bite work. There is however a difference betweeen shutzhund and protection training. Shutzhund is a formal sport with rules and a specific excersices that a dog must complete in order to attain a title.

there are three possible titles in the sport:
1. for the first the dog must be at least 18 months of age. and must pass a temperment test by a judge. a few thigns that must be done heel off -lead, a walking sit and down, as well as the stay and the send out. the dog must be able to retrieve over a hurdle and then must follow a track laid out 20 minutes prior(by the owner so its a easier scent to follow), as well as the protection test.

2. the dog must be at least 19 months for phase two ans already have a the first title, and pass all of the previvous test although now they are harder requiring more control, edurance and agility, then they have to follow a traclaid 30 mintues prior and this one is laid by a stranger( a scent they wont know well)

3. The dog must be at least 20 months and have both previous titles now the tests are truely difficult there are distractions and only the very best dogs earn this title. all exercises are off lead. there is a walking and running stand(that is hard to train)the tracking part is great to se, the track is laid by a stranger 1 hour prior, has four turns compared to two with the previous titles, and the dog must find three objects as opposed to two.

Most people that get involved with shutzhund are spending literally all of thier time conditioning and training it is very hard work, but being able to add that to your dog pedigree is a great honor and an excellent show of hard work and an awesome bond btween man and dog.

:black:

[Guest Anonymous]

Wow, thankts Rott! I've been wondering a bit about the Gameness myself, I figured it was something along those lines, but that was a really good explanation for it! Thanks!! :D
Also about the Shutzhund, I've always been interested in it, prob would never do it, I'm more into agility :wink: but thanks for the info! :D

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks guys Thats what i was aiming for. Glad to see i did well

[Guest Anonymous]

YES, I breed for gameness first, ability second. Gameness has nothing to do with the ability to fight. You can have a dog with no ability to fight but still be very game. One thing people dont understand is that you MUST at least roll your dog if you are breeding for gameness. (A roll is a short go with another dog) Anyone saying they breed for gameness but dont roll or match their dogs are not breeding for gameness.
IME and many other dog men/womens, people breeding for conformation are ruining the breed. APBTs not bred for gameness will not be as stable as those that are. Gameness is what sets the APBT apart from other breeds. It can bring tears to a grown mans eyes, send shivers up your spine to see how devoted and game some of these dogs are. It is a completely amazing trait that is probably the hardest word/trait to explain.

[quote]A game bred dog, it is as if it has no thought in its head that it can't do something. it will die before quitting... [/quote]

This is pretty much right on but there is so much more to it. More than what can be put into words.
I think gameness helps in weight pulling and everything rott'n'pit mentioned BUT I think the only way to determine a truely game dog is in the pit. Example... I had a male I used to walk everyday for anywhere from an hour to two hours. After the walk he would hang from a tree for another 2 hours, sometimes more, of his own accord. When it was finally his turn to roll, he went for about 20 minutes then just quit in the corner. I thought he would be "dead game" because of all the long walks followed by hanging in the tree. I was wrong. You cant measure gameness by the dogs willingness to do anything but fight.

[Mary's Mama]

Alright I thought I understood after RnP but then Hmmm posts got me all confusticated again. Hmmm, can you speak in nonAPBT language? I dont understand the jargon you use.

I guess I do understand that the main characteristic the breed was developed for was their "drive". Please tell me if this is correct.

Okay lets forget about ability to fight for minute. My breed, Jack Russells, should be breed to hunt. That is the first desireable characteristic, however, it is important that the conformation of the dog be correct as that makes a huge impact on the dogs ability to do its job (go to ground). Also, there are genetic diseases such as luxating patella that should be avoided. So if the best hunter you have does not fit standard and carries an ailment, he would or should not be breed. Does this correlate to your breed? If you have a dog with the desired amount of drive, but his confirmation is horrible and he carries a disease, doyou still breed him?

So there is no other way to test for drive other than a fight or roll, not a weight pull or the other activites they are used for today, because we all know there is no fighting of pits anymore, right? :o

I am curious what the future of this breed holds. Once it's "purpose" has been made illegal, what direction does breeding take. Why is it considered "wrong" to accentuate their other wonderful qualities to help preserve their breed and possibly improve their reputation and acceptance in society. Again in my breed, there are breedings that strive for comfirmation, soundness (the right "attitude"), but also companionship because very few hunters use terriers any more. I know some but as far as society is concerned it is not the popular "sport" it once was. I see this as a good thing. The hunters work to preserve their lines and abilities, but those that love the breed dont hunt can still enjoy them without the pitfalls of having a strong hunter. I think that as the sport continues to die, we will still preserve the breed and it's best characteristics.

One last question, can a dog have drive or be game and not be aggressive (dog not human, I know :D )?

[Mary's Mama]

[quote name='Hmmmm']
You can have a dog with no ability to fight but still be very game.

You cant measure gameness by the dogs willingness to do anything but fight.[/quote]

I'm sorry but these two statements seem extremely contradictory to me, I hope I am wrong. Can you explain that?

[Guest Anonymous]

Lets get it to the basics, the reason that the only way to game test a dog is basically because no other activity is as consistantly taxing then to be matched against another game dog. most other activities require intense devotion and concentration but only for a short time where gameness is concerned the dog should be in for the long haul.

hmmmm i hear you and agree a game dog is an awesome sight. the intensity is astounding, its like the driving life force of these dogs to not only compete but to win. As far as i have learned game ness is the ultimate quality dogs that have great ability but are not game enought to continue against a weaker opponent arent bred. a game dog tat gets beat for 2 hours straight, never has the upper hand but still tries to continue may have lost the match but is still considered a game dog and is bred. The activit itself isnt the factor, its more on the line that nothing test the limits of an APBT like an APBT.

I hate it but its true. As far as genetics and disease, anything that is determined to be hereditary isnt bred on that i have heard. im sure there might be some less than caring breeders that will. but ideally the conformation is out the window, most APBTs that are game bred are thing and tall Rangier subjects, these big 100 lbs APBTs are so far from the standard its just silly.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote]I guess I do understand that the main characteristic the breed was developed for was their "drive". Please tell me if this is correct.
[/quote]
I dont consider gameness and drive to be the same thing. I feel "drive" is more the willingness to fight while gameness is the heart to never quit.

Conformation is not important when breeding APBTs but you do not, like any other breed, want to breed a dog, with say too much of an underbite or too bowed of legs (physical defects). APBTs, like with other breeds should not be bred if they have a disease and most are culled (usually put down but can also mean spaying/neutering...). APBTs come in almost every shape and size. Now, if someone tells you they have a 100lb APBT, they are lying. Their usual weight is between 30-65lb (65 still being big). They dont get that big unless crossed with another breed. Some of them are short and stubby, some tall and leggy. Some have huge heads, some have little pinheads. The temperment of the dog is VERY important. You want a dog that will not bite while being handled and can also be worked on after a match with no worry of getting bit.
[quote]So there is no other way to test for drive other than a fight or roll, not a weight pull or the other activites they are used for today, because we all know there is no fighting of pits anymore, right?
[/quote]
Nope, unfortunately no other way. Read my example under my first post on this thread. And you are right, there is no more fighting of pits.
[quote]Why is it considered "wrong" to accentuate their other wonderful qualities to help preserve their breed and possibly improve their reputation and acceptance in society. [/quote]
Its not wron to accentuate the other wonderful qualities if you breed for the most important quality first, gameness. And this has already been done. The American Staffordshire Terrier IS the conformation APBT. Do you think they are accapted more than the APBT? No, they arent. If you take the gameness out of the APBT he will not be an APBT. He would be more likely to be aggressive towards people and would just not be as stable all around.
[quote]One last question, can a dog have drive or be game and not be aggressive (dog not human, I know )?[/quote]
That depends on what you mean. Do you mean wont fight or will fight but knows the only time to go is in the pit?
My first champion was a little male. I could let him outside to use "the bathroom", before my six foot high fence was up. He would just go mark his territory, do his business and come right home. There were a couple of rotties on the hill across the way and he never bothered them. He also lived in the house with a couple of cats. But when it was time for him to do his job in the pit, he was on it. Also had a female champion I could let run around the other dogs. She would stay far enough away from the chain areas and the kennels fences so as not to cause a problem. i could let her run around the other dogs during feeding time! But again, once it was time for her to work, she got it done. The male lost his 5th but never quit scratching.

[Prairie_Gurl]

I'm stayin outta this one...

Damn! Already in it.

So much for sayin I'm a "smart" blonde. lol.