BuddysMom

[quote name='Michele']I respect your view on this BM..i really do.....but if you want "sound" pits...isnt this the way to do it???[/quote] Many pit bull advocates who are much more knowledgable then me say there are other ways. Why don't you pose this question to Jason Mann (author of the article I posted above?) at pitbulllovers.com ...

[quote name='Michele']ok..BM.....here's my final thought........I"m totally against BSL....what i'm trying to say is this:...you want to let your voice be heard....well, your focus must not be the breed...it must be the humans who MADE the breed the way they are ...I've always been against dog fighting...i can see the difference between matching and fighting....i dont applaud matching..BUT i see there's a big difference...[/quote] OK, good final word. Now *I* am going to have a smoke. :wink:

[quote name='__crazy_canine__']BM, honestly youre right, there are a lot of people who fit the discription in that article. A lot of dogmen are into drugs and I do believe theyre more in the sport for the money and pride of winning a match. I do also think the game is getting more about breeding for more mouth and ability in a dog instead of gameness and it pisses me off to no end. BUT you need to understand that there are a few good, and even great, dogmen/women who are doing things right. I believe Hmmmm is one of those people. [quote]Dog fighter's can talk until they are blue in the face but they can never give you a useful reason for dog fighting. Not one single reason exists. Never did! [/quote] :roll: Its stuff like this that really makes me want to smack someone... Matching dogs is testing whether that dog will cur out and if it does, its not worth breeding because thats what the breed is all about: gameness. IMO, matching also can give you a better idea of whether or not that dog will bite a human, in which case, you dont breed the dog. theyre doing society a favor by doing this... unlike the idiots who fight for entertainment, pride, and money.[/quote] I know that you and Hmmmm and probably many others here do sincerely believe this, and I understand the logic and respect your opinion, but I absolutely 100 percent disagree with it. This is the split amongst dog lovers that I am talking about.

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[quote name='Michele'][quote]If you love these dogs is it worth promoting their "responsible breeding" just so more af them can suffer and be tortured? Would it be not more humane to let them phase out into the pages of history? Can we keep ignoring the legions of pit bull BYBs and torturers? [/quote] did you say this?....do you honestly think it would be more humane to phase them out?[/quote] I said it, I said it was out of emotion and intended to spark discussion, I said I regretted it.

Michele when you said you needed a smoke earlier ... just WHAT did you go and smoke? Maybe I should have some too because you are confusing the hell out of me right now! :lol:

I still don't get the question. If there was a ban on fighting? There is, isn't there? And there shouldn't be in your opinion? I'm seriously confused! Did you disagree with the article? Because I agree with every word. I love that whole site in fact.

[quote name='Michele'][quote name='BuddysMom'][quote name='Michele']BM: I'm not picking a fight with you, ok?..I"m debating you... :D ..You had said earlier in this thread you want to write letters......Understand, please, that any breed of dog that is trained to fight, will fight. WE made them like that. This is what you must focus on if you are serious about letting people know HOW and WHY dogs end up like this.....[/quote] I'm not picking a fight with you either. (Why would I want to fight with The Marshall? :lol: ) But there obviously is a split within the whole dog loving community, not just DOGO, about whether matching is fighting, whether it is necessary for the continuation of the breed; whether, as an important part of the breed's history it should be given a nod or condemned. I am with the crowd that says matching is fighting, it is despicable and unnecessary and a very lamentable part of the breed's history; that the breed has wonderful purpose beyond it's original reson for being, like many other breeds. I have to find this link that expresses just how I feel, and I will post it.[/quote] Why would you want to wipe out a breed because of human selfishness and greed?[/quote] OH now I see where you got this idea. Correction to "But there obviously is a split within the whole dog loving community, not just DOGO, about whether matching is fighting, whether it is necessary for the continuation of the breed;" ... I meant whether "fighting / matching" is necessary for the continuation of the breed.

I don't get the question Michele. How does that post say I want to wipe out the breed? Here is the link I like: [url]http://www.pitbulllovers.com/pitbull-articles/fighting-pit-bull-dog-fighting.html[/url] Fighting Pit Bull - Dog Fighting and the American Pit Bull Terrier By Jason Mann While some people run like they just saw Godzilla stomping down main street when they are confronted with the past of their dogs it is true the American Pit Bull Terrier was (and still is) bred for dog fighting. It's also true they were fighting animals like: Bears Boar Badgers Donkeys Lions Tigers ...long before they were fought with other Pit Bulls One common mistake most historians make when talking about the history of these dogs is they assume dog fighting started after Bull baiting was banned. This is not the case. Dog fighting was around while Bull baiting was in it's hay day. Another fact that is rarely mentioned is when Bull baiting was outlawed the act of dog fighting was also illegal but authorities didn't enforce the laws that often. Dog Fights were Easier to Operate for the Poor Hosting a Bull baiting took money, time and resources poor people in England didn't have. Dog fighting was easier for them to operate and profit from. Probably because the police were profiting from the dog fights as well. That is not a known fact but since they were allowed to operate something must have been going on under the table. Poor folks learned quickly that dog fighting could put some extra bread on their tables. Not to mention some pretty coins for their pockets. Irish and English dog fighters of the early 19th century held great pride in producing top quality bulldogs that not only took down the Bulls, but dispatched their kin with equal violence. Dog Fighting is Useless When I get into debates with "dog men" and "dog women" they always say, "This is what they are bred for, if you don't do it, you are ruining the breed!" To this feeble argument I say, "Wake up!" There have been countless other breeds that were bred for a specific task that did so well at another task they started breeding them for that purpose instead. German Shepherds are a perfect example of this trend. Most people do not even realize that German Shepherds are herding dogs that showed signs of good protection dogs. Now German Shepherds are known more for their ability to work as Police dogs than herding. You see the argument that Pit Bulls were bred for fighting and anything less is ruining the breed is their pathetic way of holding on to a barbaric act that time has long needed to forget but these people cling to it like a baby to their bottle when they are hungry for their mothers milk. Why? Dog Fighters NEED Violence to Boost their Pride and Wallets I know I'm going to take a lot of heat from the dog fighting community for that comment. I don't really give two shakes and a penny. What other reason is there to fight dogs? Dog fighter's can talk until they are blue in the face but they can never give you a useful reason for dog fighting. Not one single reason exists. Never did! I have no doubt some Pit Bulls love to fight. I mean, after all, I don't disagree it is what they were bred to do. However, simply because back when our country was new and forming people fought dogs, doesn't make it right. Didn't make it right then and sure doesn't now. Fighting Pit Bulls for money, pride, ego, or game testing them has no place in our society anymore. Pit Bulls are Great Dogs and Greatness should be rewarded with Love, Praise and Compassion. Not Death, Scars, Pain and Blood. I admire Pit Bulls that fight. I won't lie to you. I do. Why? Because these dogs have shown they can take the abuse people place on them and still lick your face when it's all said and done. I don't admire the fighting. I admire their soundness, courage, and undying loyalty. Even to if that loyalty is not returned in kind. On that same token, I do not support fighting, care for fighting, and if I had my way those who participate in dog fighting would be forced to suffer the exact same fate their dogs do. To put it lightly, I hate dog fighting. Pit Bulls and Dog Fighting Summary As you might have noticed I'm a bit passionate about this subject. :o) Writing this article took forever because I had to keep going back and editing where I went a bit nutty. We can stop it. We have to make our voices heard and convince law makers to make dog fighting laws even tougher. Stiff jail times would be a nice start. Write you local government, get out there and talk with representives in your area, and talk with Law Enforcement and get their views on the subject. In short, make some noise!

[quote name='Michele']BM: I'm not picking a fight with you, ok?..I"m debating you... :D ..You had said earlier in this thread you want to write letters......Understand, please, that any breed of dog that is trained to fight, will fight. WE made them like that. This is what you must focus on if you are serious about letting people know HOW and WHY dogs end up like this.....[/quote] I'm not picking a fight with you either. (Why would I want to fight with The Marshall? :lol: ) But there obviously is a split within the whole dog loving community, not just DOGO, about whether matching is fighting, whether it is necessary for the continuation of the breed; whether, as an important part of the breed's history it should be given a nod or condemned. I am with the crowd that says matching is fighting, it is despicable and unnecessary and a very lamentable part of the breed's history; that the breed has wonderful purpose beyond it's original reson for being, like many other breeds. I have to find this link that expresses just how I feel, and I will post it.

[quote name='Michele'][quote]It's weird but I bet there would be people here lamenting that they couldn't buy a puppy from Hmmmm if laws against fighting were enforced 100 percent. [/quote] I wouldnt be lamenting over it, because it doesnt apply to Hmmmm.[/quote] Oh these "matches" are within current law? Not being sarcastic, I'm just very surprised if that's the case. Can I find them on ESPN 3 or something? (OK maybe I'm being a little sarcastic). Edited to add: I'm not saying her pups aren't super fine. They are! But it's beside the point.

Some of us believe that, some of us do not believe that. Around and around, don't want to go there again. To me you can call a pile of shit a rose all you want but in the end it's still a pile of shit.

[quote name='Michele'][quote name='BuddysMom']If you think about it aren't the laws against dog fighting BSL? Because what percentage of all the dogs fought are not pit bulls? I know there are some but I bet it's less than 1 percent. It's weird but I bet there would be people here lamenting that they couldn't buy a puppy from Hmmmm if laws against fighting were enforced 100 percent.[/quote] BM: Hmmmm DOESNT FIGHT HER DOGS......I need a smoke[/quote] What? Where've you been?

If you think about it aren't the laws against dog fighting BSL? Because what percentage of all the dogs fought are not pit bulls? I know there are some but I bet it's less than 1 percent. It's weird but I bet there would be people here lamenting that they couldn't buy a puppy from Hmmmm if laws against fighting were enforced 100 percent.

Good discussion! Like I said earlier, i love the term "Owner Specific Legislation," now that is an concept that may work.

Well I do agree with all that gooeydog ... I wonder if Yahoo news doesn't tend a little more toward the sensational than most national news outlets. I routinely check in on CNN, Fox, and MSNBC every day, as well as two local papers and the Denver Post including their national news sections and never saw it.

[quote name='__crazy_canine__']I'd like to know why you think people here dont think this is a big deal? Please show me where anyone has said this situation isnt horrible. Id like to see where you got that idea. :-?[/quote] OP referring to the incident as a "dog bite".

To answer your questions Michele, Yes all breeds are over the top if you look at the number of purebreds in rescue. It does appear to be especially true of pit bulls right now as one of the "dogs de jour" ... people think they are cool so they buy a puppy for the wrong reasons (i.e. as a status symbol) and then have no idea how to take care of it, and it ends up in a shelter or worse. (YES Hmmmm I know this would never happen to one of your pups) If BSL would "work" would I go for it? If it stopped all of the dog fighting and torture, baiting, unwanted pit bulls in shelters, took the breed entirely out of the hands of irresponsible, stupid, and/or cruel people, while still allowing responsible owners to have them as pets... then would you support it? But that is just a dream; it never could work. I know that it just increases these problems while punishing the animals and the innocent responsible people.

Yep Cairn is right.

[quote name='Hmmmm']But its not the responsible breeders doing it. If we stop the breed would be phased out. The only pit bulls would be the curs bred by bybs and the mutts considered pit bulls.[/quote] I said people who are producing litters AT THIS TIME. Meaning that I may support a temporary moratorium, such as 1 year, as suggested by others.

[quote name='BuddysMom']If you love these dogs is it worth promoting their "responsible breeding" just so more af them can suffer and be tortured? Would it be not more humane to let them phase out into the pages of history? Can we keep ignoring the legions of pit bull BYBs and torturers?[/quote] This is what I said. A hypothetical, even rhtorical question thrown out there in the throes of emotion. Not proud of it, but it's not the way you portray it. The breed as a whole is overbred. It is my opinion that any breeding at this time contributes to the overall problem. That's my opinion. It is not an attack on you personally. You can continue to be pissed off and pretend I have attacked you, but it is just not the case. Why don't you allow me to have my opinion, and I'll allow you the same courtesy.

I feel the same way Hmmmm, that you turn things I say around. Like, I never said YOU overbreed, and you turned it around as if I had. And IMO I never "attacked" "your breed" but obviously you think so and I'm not going to change your mind about it. And it is you who keeps portraying me as a BSL supporter. The "matching" issue we have been around and around on, no one will ever change the other's mind about this either.

[quote name='Michele']the picture of the black pit doesnt even look like it's all pit........sorry to say, but it looks like part laborador......[/quote] CS, great post. Michele, one of the three was reported to be 1/2 chow. That's what I think the black one is.

I want to clarify on my original post. I regret the "phase out" comment. My dismay and frustration with the Denver incident was amplified because it was a situation with one unnuetered male and one unspayed female in heat. Not that the child should have been allowed alone with them anyway, but if all of the dogs had been fixed it very well may not have happened. Then it got me thinking about all the horrors this particular breed goes through (just ONE of these being BSL) ... and how this incident would only accelerate the spread of BSL throughout my state. Yes it could have happened with any breed, but because these idiots were BYB-ers, not only might their son die, but they have just made life more miserable for countless more pit bulls and their owners.

I am NOT for BSL even though Hmmmm seems to think that I am... I think BSL is a huge part of the problem! And it is in itself a terrible abuse. I never meant to start a debate about what breeds are likely to bite or not, and I have said that is NOT the issue, I was just being stupid and defensive as I thought Hmmmm was picking on MY dog on page 1. I do wish some of you would quit protraying me as a BSL supporter. I think BSL is hideous. I am singling out pit bulls in this discussion because pit bulls, and their owners, are the victims... 1. victims of BSL 2. victims of media hype 3. victims of overbreeding ("responsible" or not) 4. victims of fighting/matching/whatever you want to call it 5. victims of a thug culture where they are often treated as accessories. Hmmmm, I know, will take exception to numbers 3 and 4. This is the road we don't need to go down again. I am just saying it is a crisis situation specifically in regards to pit bulls and looking for ideas on what can be done about it. I do not claim to know. I appreciate all of the ideas so far.