Nancy B

Aw shucks...thanks Marble! Sounds like you and Dresden are doing very well with the clicker! I just love it when the dogs understand that they need to start offering various behaviors to earn that click/treat! It makes them such very willing workers and training sessions are so much fun!

[quote name='Rowie-the-Pooh'][quote name='Nancy B']http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=5351[/quote] Thanks Nancy! That helped alot! :D[/quote] You're very welcome Rowie! :D

[quote name='Girlfriend']I agree with you Lisa .......... actually I'm thinking of joining ..... I'm not being nosey....... my name is here for all to see! :D Judy Hoffman Sourire Belgian Sheepdogs USA[/quote] Hey Judy, come on over! The more the merrier. :D

[url]http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=5351[/url]

It sounds like Cosmic is taking to clicker training like a duck to water! :D Amazing isn't it? Once your dog knows what the clicker means, they really do turn themselves "inside out" to earn that click/treat. A wonderful and powerful tool! Doing multiple short training sessions each day is best. You don't have to do 10 minutes so, don't worry about it. Sometimes when I'm polishing a particular behavior I may only do a few minutes at each session....but I may do ten sessions a day! :) Congrats on your success and I wish you many years of happy training with Cosmic!

[quote name='Rowie-the-Pooh'] NancyB, I went to your breeders site about a week ago(I was bored and loved your beautiful dogs) and on thier website it said that one of the Dobe's won something (I forgot what) and it was the record for the breed, that the Dobe was the youngest ever... :D I was really impressed! :D :D :D I love both of your dogs! TOO beautiful! :D :D :D[/quote] Thnks so much!!! :D That dog would be Banner, Ch Kaliber's Flagship. Banner won winners dog at the Dobe National one year. the youngest dog to ever do that. The Dobe national is a very big deal....10 solid days of showing, agility obedience and all kinds of stuff. There are hundreds of Dobes in competiton! Whit's breeder is getting set to do a major revision of her website. I've given her a bunch of new photos for Mason.....stuff that I don't have on my site. She she also needs to update titles...all the dogs have many more titles than the website shows!

[quote name='primabella'][color=indigo]Thanks for sharing your stories everyone. Nancy B, is that your Dobe in your avatar? What a beauty! :o [/color][/quote] Thank you! Yes, that's my girl Whitney. :D [img]http://www.whitneyandmason.com/images/Home%20Pics/WhitAzalea2Q5.jpg[/img] Here's my boy, Mason. [img]http://www.whitneyandmason.com/MasonAzelea2Q5.jpg[/img]

Both of my Dobes are from breeders who are members of the Doberman Pinscher Club of America. Both breeders have produced multiple champions as well as dogs who have done well in performance events. Both breeders health test and both have lines known for excellent temperament and longevity. Whitney's breeder has become a close personal friend since it just happens that she lives nearby. I have left both of my kids with her on the rare occasions when I've gone out of town to somewhere that I can't bring dogs to. I've also kept the occaisonal dog for her. Mason's breeder lives in Texas so, I don't get to see her very often. Although Mason's breeder is in Texas, Whitney's breeder's stud dog was Mason's sire so Whitney's breeder has a vested interest in him too. Not to say that Mason's breeder doesn't! :)

Yes, I think they're both excellent! I put them under "breeding" on my health links page hoping that they may help educate anyone who is considering breeding but, hasn't really thought it through.

[quote name='Bubblezzz']:o :lol: whoo-hoo... I guess we moved to a toughie BEFORE really learning about HOW dogs learn... :P We got lucky with several other commands, teaching him stuff like SIT, DOWN, PAW (he places his paw wherever we indicate), STAY, HIGH-FIVE etc. :) I will lay off NOSE for a while, until he understands the clicker fully! Oh, Nancy, for the commands he already knows, is it good to command, click and treat? I haven't been clicking (command, treat) since he already responds to the command cue. But I was wondering if it might be good to use the clicker with commands he already knows to reinforce what the click means? We started last night with me just clicking and treating. I think he couldn't believe his luck!! :P He is learning to associate the click with a treat, looking up at me when he heard it even when bf was playing with him! :) But when I tried clicking this morning, it didn't really work. :-? Guess it would take us a few days. We'll keep at it (he's definitely having fun) and hopefully can report a new learned trick soon!! :D[/quote] Well, the reason the trick is hard is simply because a dog touching it's nose with it's paw isn't really a natural behavior. Yes, occasionally a dog will bow down and sorta "rub" it's muzzle with one or two paws but, they don't usually just lift a paw up and touch their nose. If you wanted to clicker train your dog to touch his paw with his nose, it would be much easier! :D Any behavior a dog naturally does (sit, down, bow, shake, whatever) is easier to train than an "unnatural" behavior. It wouldn't be a bad idea to go back and reinforce commands that he already knows using your clicker. It would serve a dual purpose....help reinforce the use of a clicker and also reinforce the behavior (sit, down, etc). One behavior that I train very early is "touch". To my kids, touch means touch their nose to either my hand, a target stick (if I'm holding one) or whatever I'm indicating. "Touch", as a command by itself, isn't really that useful but, you can incorporate it into many other behaviors later on. Whitney learned heeling by keeping her nose in the "touch" position on a target stick. Agility contacts were easy to train once I taught them they needed to "touch" the target with theri noses. Touch also comes in handy for getting a dog to offer behavior. I was playing around one day with the clicker and a basket. I wanted to see how long it would take Whit to "understand" that I wanted her to pick up the basket. At first I clicked/treated if she just looked in the general direction of the basket. Then, after a while, I didn't reward a general look, she had to look AT the basket. We did that for a while. Then I stopped clicking for that and waited. Whit got very wound up. She knew that I still had the clicker and treats and she was beside herself trying to figure out what I wanted. She offered sits, downs, bows....all kinds of stuff, just about every behavior she knew. Finally she tried "touching"the basket. Click and JACKPOT! (A jackpot is an extra special treat or a larger amount of treats.) She offered a "touch" because she'd alread been trained to "touch" stuff. She understood immediatly that she needed to touch the basket. OK, she started off touching on the side and I did reward for that for a while but, when I ceased rewarding that behavior, she started to "touch" the basket all over the place. Eventually she "touched" the handle and earned a c/t. I rewarded touching the handle quite a bit and then stopped again. Once again she was beside herself trying to earn a treat. Yes, eventually she did grab the handle and earned another jackpot. I reinforced that heavily and finally attached a command, "get it". Start to finish it took less than an hour for Whit to learn to pick up the basket. BUT, don't expect that speed from your dog. Whit's been working with a clicker for years and understands quite well that when the click/treat stops I'm looking for a slightly different behavior and she's very creative about offering it. You have to work with a clicker for quite a while (or with a very young pup) in order for the dog to understand that, when the clicks stop, they need to start offering behavior. Oh yeah, the "get it" is actually a very practical command. I can point to anything that I think Whit is physically able to pick up and say "get it" and she will. At this point, I've also trained a retrieve to go with the "get it" so, she gets whatever I point at and brings it to me! Retrieveing her dumbell in obedience is a "get it" and so is being sent into the backyard to get a towel I forgot! :D

[quote name='Bubblezzz'] I'm so excited about this, hopefully Cosmic will catch on and then we'll have so much fun!! :D :D I've been trying to teach him 'nose' (touch your nose) for AGES :o just by using the word, showing him (moving his paw to touch his nose) and treating... but he doesn't get it on his own. :o He'd look at me quizzically and offer a sit or a down or anything else that might get him a treat!! :lol: :roll: [/b][/quote] Wow, you've picked a very hard trick to train! OK, with clicker training you don't manipulate the dog's body at all. I've never trained my kids to touch their nose with their paw but, if I were to do so, here's how I think you'd do it with a clicker. Using a clicker, you "shape" behavior. Once you've "loaded the clicker" or in other words, just gone through a couple of dozen click/treats, the dog should understand that when it hears a click it will get a treat. To shape paw touching nose you need to shape the dog moving it's paw. Sit down on the floor near the dog, get comfortable and wait. If the dog sees the clicker, chances are that it's gonna start offering behavior in order to earn a treat. (If your dog does not know enough about clickers in order to start offering behavior, clicking/treating for a few simple things like "sit" and "down" may help it get the idea.) Pay close attention and click when some movement moves a paw closer to your hand or you could use a target stick. Keep clicking and treating behavior that moves a paw near your hand or target stick. when it's gotten the hang of that, raise the level so that you're clicking /treating for a paw touching the hand/target stick. Start to shape the paw on nose by putting your hand or target stick on the dogs nose and click/treat if the dog moves it's paw up toward your hand/iits nose. When it's consistently doint that, raise the level to requiring a touch to your hand/target stick. When the dog is solid on that try to place your hand on the side of the dog's muzzle opposite the side of the paw the dog is using....so that it's still on the muzzle but, when the dog goes to touch it with his paw, it will either miss it or not hit much of your hand....mostly hit it's own nose. Do that a lot and reinforce heavily. Gradually move your hand a bit farther so that the dog is never touching your hand, only it's own muzzle/nose. Reinforce this behavior heavily with clicks/treats. At this point you can attach the command "nose" to the behavior you've shaped. Keep reinforcing and over time, once your dog is solid, you may switch to a variable reinforcement. IOW, say "nose" and when your dog does it tell him good boy but, don't click/treat. Maybe require him to do two "nose" commands to earn a click/treat. Gradually you may require three "nose" commands to earn that click/treat and so on. Now, you have to be careful about the variable reinforcement. Don't give two commands right after each other or you will start training the dog to touch it's nose twice in a row in order to earn a click/treat. When you switch to variable it's best to require the command, praise the dog if it does it and move away a bit to a different position before asking for another "nose". As I said, paw touching nose is a tough one. Training a dog to touch its nose to its paw would be much easier!!!! If i ever trained that I might wind up breaking it down even more.

[quote name='Rowie-the-Pooh']There has been alot of talk about breeding these days on the forum, so I'll post this AMAZING website, it just shows you the cost of breeding. :wink: I LOVE it! :D [url]http://www.bluegrace.com/virtualbreeding.html[/url] Enjoy! :D[/quote] Hey! I've got a link to that website on the "health links" page on my kids website. Here's another one for you. [url]http://www.bluegrace.com/vb_2.html[/url] :D

[quote name='Bubblezzz'][quote] Nancy B, I can't find clickers for sale ANYWHERE :o , so I'll be using a cheap party noise maker that makes a loud click. That should do right? Plus they're really cheap, so getting lots to leave around the house won't cost us much at all. :D Haven't found "Clicker training for obedience" yet! [/quote][/quote] Sure, the party noise maker will work just fine! If those don't hold up and you want a "real" clicker, I ususally buy my clickers from J and J but, I've bought from all three of theses sites. [url]http://www.jjdog.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=1CATCLICKERTRAINING[/url] [url]http://store.yahoo.com/clickerpets/traininggear.html[/url] [url]https://secure.dv1.net/clicker/[/url] "Clicker Training for Obedience" is at Dogwise here: [url]http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB606[/url] I've ordered dozens of books from Dogwise and never had a problem. Amazon also has it at [url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962401781/qid=1055124996/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-4744458-8392635?v=glance&s=books&n=507846[/url] Karen Pryor has also written several very good books on clicker training. If you can get a hold of one good clicker book, it should make your training go much easier. Clicker training really is a lot of fun for you and your dog! Go to the clicker links on my kid's obedience page. some of those links offer free online subscriptions to clicker training articles. They can be a big help when you're starting out. Good luck and have fun!

Well I have Dobermans and they are my favorites. As far as "wish for" goes......someday when I so old that I can't handle a Dobe anymore, I'd like a Papillon. :)

[quote name='courtnek']I have always trained with praise and play, EXCEPT for recall, which is too important. And she still wont recall consistently, so maybe I did it wrong..... :oops:[/quote] I don't understand. A recall is very important so, why would you choose to train it without treats? I'm not at all saying that it can't be done but, what you're shooting for is a dog that, when called, turns and drives back to you as quickly as possible. To get that speed and desire to return, it's a natural to use either treats or a toy in training for motivational reasons. I'm only talking the training phase. I do not believe in having to "bribe" a dog to command a behavior once the training and proofing is done!

[quote name='Marble']I do have a question though, what clicker do you think is best? I saw the redi-clicker with the finger loop which sounded like the one you recommended......... Anyway, thank you so much.[/quote] Any clicker will work just fine. I do prefer the ones with loops just because with everything a trainer has to juggle, it's a big plus not to have to worry about holding onto the clicker. I have clickers without loops, a clicker on a key chain and a clicker on a retractable "string" that clips to your pants at the waist. They all work just fine but the looped ones are my favorite. I have a LOT of clickers. I leave cllickers and large containers of "charlie bear" treats in different locations around the house. Near the computer, in the bedroom, kitchen, family room.....Ilike to have impromptu training sessions whenever i feel like it. :) I've gottta say that Whit perfected her "stays" while I was brushing my teeth in the morning and evening. Started off doing it with her in the same room and she "graduated" to out of sight stays in the bedroom. I do lots of training like that!

[quote name='Bubblezzz']Thanks Nancy B! ... but I have one more question... :oops: :oops: Does this mean we will still be dependent on treats anyway? I've tried reinforcing using praise, or play, but I can tell Cosmic still expects a treat and isn't happy when he doesn't get one!! This means that he sometimes won't perform tricks, unless he sees me holding the treat, or standing near food. :P I will look up the book you recommended and browse around the dog training section at our bookstores. :)[/quote] No, you shouldn't be dependent on treats past the training stage. Once your dog is trained and proofed, he should perform consistently. Of course, even if he does it's not a bad idea to treat very occasionally to reinforce a well known behavior. I will sometimes treat Whit or Mason for very simple behaviors....sit, down, stuff like that. They have no idea a treat may be coming, I've concealed it in my pocket ahead of time. (Sometimes many hours ahead of time!) I know that they would still do the behavior I ask but, since they know that sometimes a treat may be offered, they perform the requested behavior very quickly and with enthuasim. When you start off clicker training you click/treat for all correct behaviors. After the dog is solid on that you'll switch to a variable reinforcement schedule. After you've been in this stage for a while you'll need to do the proofing that I mentioned in a previous post. when your dog is solid with proofing you don't need to use treats at all anymore if you don't wish to. I personally continue to use them sparingly and on no schedule just so that I maintain the dog's enthuasim at a high level.

Given your situation, I really don't think a Border Collie would be a good idea. BC's are very intelligent and very active. If you don't "occupy" them with a job, they'll find something to do and chances are you won't like it. I've admired BC's running in agility but, much as I admire them, I can admit to myself that I could not keep one mentally and physically engaged. I do not work, have a fenced yard and am quite used to doing multiple training sessions a day with my Dobes. In my opinion, a BC needs more than that. I like them but, I will never own one. Wouldn't be fair to the dog.

I'm gonna answer several posts at once. :) Ive read several very good books on clicker training but, if you were to buy only one book, I'd recommend "Clicker Training For Obedience" by Morgan Spector. You can get it at Dogwise, here [url]http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB606[/url] It's one of the first books I bought and I still use that book all the time! That book does go into some of the fundamentals of operant conditioning but, what's really helpful to a novice clicker trainer is that it also breaks all the formal obedience exercises into tiny portions and tells you exactly how to train them. There are a few clicker classes in my area now. When I started with the clicker there were none. I taught myself using books and later on was able to go to some seminars. It's not difficult to teach yourself clicker training from books, you just need to be very careful of the timing of the click. The click "marks" the desired behavior and most folks tend to click far too late. One exercise to help you learn to click at the correct time is the tennis ball one. Get a friend to help you. The friend tosses a tennis ball straight up in the air for 8 feet or so. You have to click when the tennis ball has reach the apex. If you click when it's just starting to come down, you're too late. If you click when it's still going up, you're too ealry. The friend will be able to tell you how your click was timed. I've seen this done with a whole calss of new clicker trainers. Sounds very funny. They start out and you hear clicks all over the place. After a while you start hearing all the clicks happening at the same point and that's what you're after! Some of the classes I've attended allow clickers in the class even though they are not clicker classes, some don't. Usually the ones that do allow clickers in class are run by folks who are a bit knowledgable about clickers and understand that dogs will quickly understand that only their owner's click will get them a treat. The classes that don't allow clickers usually don't for two reasons. Either they insist on you training your dog "their way" or, because they don't really understand clicker training, they fear you clicking may be a problem with other dogs. If you want to use a clicker in a non-clicker class you need to check with the instructors before class to see if it's OK. Quite honesly, I don't usually take a clicker to class even when it's allowed. I teach the behavior at home before we're ever in a class and while it may not be "solid" enought for me to discontinue using teh clicker at home, I regard class as sorta a "match" atmosphere. You can't take a clicker into a ring with you so, not using it in class is good practice for the dog.....as long as you are doing the training at home! As far as the dog not performing if you cease to use the clicker, then the dog was not entirely trained and proofed on the behaviors. The clicker is for training! It makes it very clear to the dog what behavior will be rewarded. Once that is clear you need to do proofing...set up circumstances where you will be asking for a certain behavior that is contratry to the dog's natural tendancies. For example, my dogs are incredibly food driven. When i'm proofing a down I may put my dog in a down and then proceed to drop treats in a circle all around him/her. Now, theyr'e gonna want those treats very badly but, at that point, they also know that mom has told them to down and that they'd better stay where they are or there will be consequences. (Some folks do physical corrections at that point if/when the dog breaks, I don't. My "consequences" are for the dog to get a reproachful look with an Uh Oh, and have to do the exercise again.) If you are sure that your dog knows the required behavior, proof it. If your dog doesn't hold during proofing, go back and reinforce the desired behavior. If you've done that and your dog is still breaking you may have to "raise" the level of consequences above what I do. Dogs are usually very willing to please and, once they understand without a doubt what behavior you're looking for, will turn themselves inside out to do it.

[quote name='Anonymous']to my post, when i bought my clicker that what it says to do in the information leaflet.. i woulod be following their guidline. and as to treating with a treat all the time, becomes to over eating and a fat dog you can reward a dog in more other ways. affection for one.and a dog knows hes done well[/quote] Sure, you can follow the advise on your "leaflet" if you wish. I was trying to give the benefit of experience I've had with the clicker. I've read over a half dozen BOOKS on clicker training, attended seminars and put over 20 titles on my dogs using a clicker. As to treats making a dog fat, I would assume that folks would use some common sense. Treats don't need to be big, I use tiny ones! (At home when we don't have the distraction of other dogs around I use "lower value" treats....commonly cheerios!) I also sometimes use a portion of their meals as training treats....just cut back the meal in the same proportion. My dogs would not be competing at the excellent level in agility if they were fat!

[quote name='Marble'] Why would such an unusual dog be at the pound ?????????[/quote] You'd be amazed at the number of Dobes in shelters, at rescue and just wandering around homeless. Too many folks who don't know and don't care are producing Dobermans of all colors.

[quote name='Marble'] Do you know what their temperments are like? I heard or read that the differnt colors of Great Danes are almost different breeds in terms of temperments........ Why would such an unusual dog be at the pound ?????????[/quote] A Dobe is a Dobe....no difference in temperament tied to the different colors. Blue and fawn Dobes are dilutes of black and red. Dilution is not a coveted thing and breeders generally try to avoid producing it. While it's possible to have a dilute with a good coat, many dilutes have extreme coat problems. Some wind up virtually bald. This link explains the common skin/coat problem in dliutes [url]http://www.italiangreyhound.org/cda.html[/url]

Oops, forgot to log in. That was me above!

BTW, clicker training doesn't mean that you have to carry a clicker around for the rest of your life. The clicker is for TRAINING. Once a behavior (sit, down, shake or whatever) is trained and proofed, you don't need to use the clicker anymore. Yeah, you may occasionally want to do a short "brush up" session to keep response to behaviors sharp but, you don't need to keep using the clicker once the behaviors are solid and proofed.

[quote name='tishtash']ive bought one of them clicker things, and i started using it for him sitting and giving his paw i would then click and give a bikki. and then wean off the bikki and just click.... i keep forgetting to use (though i havent felt the need to use it) he does everything i ask. when theyve done the task asked you click and reward a treat so they get to know once that they heard the click they know theyve been good,..... i suppose if you go in for real serious training it could be more worth while[/quote] You should never click without treating! From a previous post: In a nutshell, clicker training is operant conditioning. You condition your dog to know that when it hears a click, it will get a treat. A clicker savy dog will offer different behaviors in order to earn a click and thus, a treat. If you ever click and do not treat you are simply making the meaning of the click confusing to the dog. Eventually, a click will be meaningless. The most powerful "tool" of a clicker trainer is that the dog knows without any doubt that if they earn a click a treat will follow it. Some folks mistakenly think that they are switching to a variable reinforcement by clicking and not treating. Not so, they're simply undermining their dog's understanding of the clicker. Once a behavior is learned and you wish to move on to partial or variable reinforcement, you may require more than one correct behavior for the dog to earn it's click and treat. You may also require it to hold the correct behavior for longer to earn it's click and treat. Just remember, if you click you must treat. [url]http://www.clickertrain.com/index.html[/url] [url]http://www.dontshootthedog.com/home/?salesitem=default_s[/url] [url]http://www.clickerlessons.com/[/url] [url]http://www.clickersolutions.com/[/url] [url]http://www.clickandtreat.com/[/url]