ArtfulDodger

I was adopting a cat from a cat shelter and had chosen a nice big ginger Tom with a great attitude. As I was talking to the lady at the shelter I said to her that I needed a cat that got along with dogs because I had 2 at home. She said, "yeah, this cat loves dogs, what sort of dogs do you have?" As soon as I said "pitbulls" she told me she couldn't give me the cat. I asked why not and she said because the pitbulls would kill it. I said "Well, the 6 year old cat I have at home is still very much alive even though he's been around pitbulls since he was a kitten". I told her that I could show photos of my cat asleep on the couch in between my two dogs and she still didn't want to hear it. She had the audacity to tell me that some people get cats to use to warm their dogs up before a fight. I told her that I have never fought my dogs and that if I was after a cat just to get my dogs to kill it I sure as hell wouldn't come to a cat shelter and pay $70 for one when I could get any number of stray cats or kittens for free from out of the newspaper. I told her that just because someone might have a couple of bottles of beer in their fridge at home it doesn't necessarily follow that that person is an alcoholic, just like because I have a couple of apbt's at home doesn't mean I use them to fight. :x I ended up demanding to speak to her superiors and, after a couple of hours of indignant outrage on my part and alot of apologies on their part, I took the cat home where my dogs promptly killed him. :o I'm kidding, he's been with us now for 1 year and my dogs love him, the only aggression he copped at my house was from my original cat who got jealous of the love my dogs would show him. They get along well now.

I totally agree with you Ilovelabs, a dog's main job in current times is to act as a family pet. To be as comfortable lounging on the sofa as he is sniffing other dog's butts in the park. This makes every dog as happy as the proverbial pig in ... mud. My point is that these things do not have to come at the expense of a dog's ability to work or do what it was originally bred to do. A dog that will herd well or fight well, hunt well, retrieve or point/set well can be just as smoochy as the fattest, most spoilt, most people orientated cavalier K C spaniel. My dogs are prime examples of that. You see them on a pig (feral, environmental vandals in australia) and you are in awe; they are concentrated, silent, and determined when they have a hold of a pig. The speed and agility needed is absolutely amazing, it's like a BIG black hairball and 2 or 3 smaller, white hairballs joined together and buffetted around by a tornado. Anyway, my point is that these same dogs become silly, smoochy, clownish family pets the moment they get home. They chill with me on the couch watching tv, they come up for a pat every 10 minutes or so, they chase the ball and go mental when you spray the hosepipe, they wag their whole bodies wearing their happiest grins when they see you, even after just one hour. I have a friend with huntbred German shorthaired pointers and her dogs are great in the field but they're also big smoochy suckers at home. Another friend has an Australian Cattle Dog, he is well capable of herding cattle (although he rarely gets a chance to show it) but he's also a family boy. Another mate has a jack russell terrier who can kill a rat in one shake but can be on your lap snoring 10 minutes later. A fellow hunter's rescued greyhound was a fulltime track dog, is now a fulltime roodog and also reclines like Cleopatra with her beautiful head in his lap. I love greyhounds, I'm going to rescue one one day, they are LOVELY dogs in every way. I think you can still have your family pet but the dog should be able and happy to do what it was originally bred to do. There are plenty of designer dogs out there which were "built" around original breeds and have become breeds in their own right. But, I think it is important to keep the breeds we have now that can still perform their jobs well and be as functional as possible. This inevitably produces a rather different looking dog to its show counterparts. The pitbull comes in all shapes, sizes and colours. You can get the tiny little ones with small heads and tight lips, the stockily built ones with huge heads and muscles on their muscles or ones with a rangey, houndlike build and loose lips and jowls. They look so different because they have been bred more for fighting than for show, thus the breeders don't give a hoot about standards as long as the dog can hold it's own in a fight and not give up. The average working border collie is a skinny rake of a thing with boundless energy who looks like a mongrel compared to a show border collie who is stockier, fluffier and more "pure" looking. Put the two in with a flock of sheep tho and it becomes obvious pretty soon which one is the real/original border collie. The show collie will be interested in the sheep and start herding in a haphazard kinda way but the workbred dog will have the whole thing sorted and have the sheep in a tight bunch before you can say "white a nice mob of sheep" Obviously there are exceptions to every rule but people who are after a new sheepdog for their property will usually buy from a known breeder who has proven working dogs. I just want to add that in no way am I criticising anybody out there who does not use their dogs for work or fulltime hobby, my dog's main function is to be my best friends and family and when they retire from pigging I don't lose any affection or respect for them. They live out the rest of their days as spoilt old codgers. One day when I'm an old codger I will still have dogs but I won't be taking them out on pigs anymore.

If I had the acreage I would try to breed a line of pitbulls specifically for gameness in hunting and a good pack instinct (although I hear the dogo de'argentina has those traits??). I would be doing my bit for the anti dogfighting cause but the reality is that gameness is gameness; whether it's gameness going in after a pig twice your size, even though experience has told you that you've really got your work cut out for you, or gameness fighting another dog and copping a real beating for a couple of hours and still be ready to fight on. Pig hunting doesn't take anywhere near as much toll on a dog as a fight would, unless you were an idiot and went for a big pig with just one dog. I have never lost a dog to a pig, there have been a few bruised and bloody dogs come home but they LOVE it. I can say that with 100% certainty, they LOVE to hunt. When we're getting ready to go to the bush the dogs know well before hand and become almost manic. When they see the protective leather chest plates and leads they become positively orgasmic. Once on the ground, and the find dogs are rooting out the pigs, the catch dogs switch into professional mode and are the picure of concentration. Most dogs love hunting, from a shitzu to a st bernard, and I personally believe that a dog develops a real maturity once it has done what it is designed to do by nature, hunt, kill and eat something in a pack environment. Why do we human's insist on anthropormorphising dogs?? ( ie giving them our attributes rather than accepting them as what they are, DOGS) Maybe if hunting really took off as a sport there would be good hunting kennels from where to buy a dog, but until then you can buy from a known breeder. Some breeders just breed a certain line of dog and sell them innocently enough, it's the buyers who buy for the temprement, a line of known fight winners will soon be known to have come from a certain kennel and fighting guys will go to that kennel to buy or to start their own kennel from that bloodline. It's a never ending story. This temprement can be used in pitbulls for all sorts of things, doesn't HAVE to be focused on fighting. Weightpulling, hunting, shutzhund, agility, frisbee competitions, herding (yes, herding) and the best one of all, devoted family pet and protector.

Maybe we should use Peruvian commandoes as live, unprotected targets for attack dog training. If they want to prove their manhood wouldn't it be more appropriate to see how much punishment they could take from a well trained and efficient attack dog?? I despair about humans sometimes!!!! :(

Very nicely put bk blue. I didn't know about Don Burke's puppy factory rumour?? Hasn't he got enough cash already to not have to do that?? He's into breeding and selling Lowline cattle, painted horses, finches, vege strains etc etc etc, looks like he might have expanded into pugs now?? He's always on about buying from reputable breeders too. Even if its not true it's a real corker and I'm going to spread it. Let's see if its on the news in the next few days. 8) Speaking of prominant figures and pets. Did you see on Dr Harry when he interviewed Cathy Freeman? She's got cats and she was talking to Dr harry in a really proud manner about what great hunters her cats were and how many animals they have killed. Dr Harry was encouraging her and I'm sitting in my loungeroom shouting at the tv saying "Idiots, a cat must not be allowed out at all unless it is contained to the property somehow." A fine role model she is, NOT!! My cats have a large enclosed area where they can get out and enjoy the sun and do their business, it's connected to the house by a catflap. They never bring animals home.

This whole pitbull phobia has gotten way out of control hasn't it?? I'd like to know for certain how many of these attacks actually were committed by pure pitbulls and not some cross breed. Are we to trust the breed recognition skills of every small town journalist or eye witness to these attacks? I had an English Bull Terrier X Yellow Labrador who got in a fight with a border collie down at the beach once. She worked him over pretty good before I could get her off him and it made the front page of the local newspaper the next day. The headline read [b]PITBULL MAULS PET AT BEACH. [/b] :o That dog doesn't have a drop of pitbull in her, she looks like a big, muscular cream coloured lab with shorter fur and slightly squinty eyes yet this incident has added to the urban myth of the pitbull as being untrustworthy and vicious. My other dog was there at the time, he's a pure pitbull and he didn't get involved in the fight at all. The problem with increasing fines and penalties for people whose dogs roam is that the average Joe, who doesn't let his pits roam, may be too scared of finacial ruin or worse to come and claim his dog if it got out by mistake. This would end up with the dog being put down if a home couldn't be found for him. Where I live there is strict regulation in place now. I have to have a warning sign on every entrance to my property. My dogs are required to wear loudly coloured fluoro collars signifying they are a dangerous breed and they must wear a muzzle and lead at all times in public. I ask you, what if I am obeying these rules and a loose dog, eg labrador, aussie cattle dog, german shep, etc attacks my dog. My dog couldn't effectively protect himself and if he were injured where would those laws be then?? Another knee jerk reaction by a public/govt that needs a dragon to slay!! :mad:

BK blue, Dr Harry should have been prosecuted years ago for [b]human cruelty[/b]. :D I find him incredibly presumptious, arrogant and patronising. I don't know the man personally but I wouldn't put anything past him. :wink:

bullygirl, I love the test for bull breeds. I conducted it on my dogs and they passed it with flying colours. I think they may have been the dogs the author had in mind when he/she wrote the test steps. There is another test just to be sure. Tell dog to be evaluated to sit on his bed and proceed to the couch to watch some television. After 2 minutes a bull breed will begin to slink imperceptively towards the couch stopping and looking innocently around every time the evaluator looks its way. Before long a true bullbreed will magically appear sitting upright, leaning hard and wearing its saddest face just milimetres from evaluators nose. If evaluated dog is a true bullbreed he will sit patiently this way until evaluator pats his head whereupon he will attempt couch and lap privilages or sink contentedly to the floor beside the couch.

Working Koolie, I agree that some herd dogs are still faithful to their roots Koolies too I believe. The main reason I don't get my dogs from other hunters is because hunters usually mix the pitbulls with other things, eg greyhounds, whippets, pointers, beagles etc. Or they, like me, buy pitbulls and the like as catch/grab dogs rather than breed them themselves. I think it might be because there are enough fighting lines out there to be able to have a good chance at finding a good catch dog when you buy from such a breeder. The main problem with buying from a fighting type of breeder is that sometimes they are so inbred they can suffer personality defects but the guy I buy from now has a very healthy and robust line, he keeps the blood topped up with new dogs. I must stress that this guy's good reputation is just a rumour, I can't say with any certainty that he fights his dogs. I can say with great certainty however that they all have made great pigdogs. I must stress again that I do not fight my dogs, they get enough fun out of hunting pigs, it's a great fun thing for the whole family. 8) It seems like every hunter has a certain mix of dog that they will swear black and blue is the greatest pig finder this side of the black stump. But, for a catch/grab dog they always seem to have a pitbull, staff, english bull terrier and even boxer or ridgeback on hand to add some muscle. I like the pure pitbull, you can rely on it 100% in a crisis with a big, angry pig.

Remember, we humans are the pack leaders. If a dog attacks you HAVE to fight back and reassert your dominance or you could be seriously injured or killed. If backing away isn't working and he attacks, you have to defend yourself at any cost. I would have no hesitation in picking a dog up by his back legs and swinging him against a wall if he came at me with a real intention of injuring me. If the dog was too big or quick to get hold of his back legs just kick, punch, choke, bite, scream and hold the bugger till he gives up, gets scared or is dead. At this stage I'm sure even the staunchest dog lover would have no problems inflicting pain on a dog if they were in fear of their life. A kelpie nipped at my nose at a party once, I only just managed to get out of the way before he would have had a hold of my face. I had been doing nothing, he had just arrived and taken a dislike to me for some reason. I grabbed him by the cheeks, walked him over to the bathtub full of beer and ice and held his head under to cool him off. Later he wouldn't leave my side and he has been devoted to me ever since. No bears in australia so I can't comment. Plenty of sharks but not many people tend to live to tell the tale of their encounters with sharks.

My dogs live outside 60% of the time and they seem to like it that way. They are aware of the rules of my pack because the rules are simple. No fighting, no chewing of plants/shoes and human belongings, no digging and no peeing in the house. If they follow these simple rules the pack leader (me) is a loving and benevolant one, if the rules are broken the pack leader asserts his dominance. I do this by voice and posture and if that doesn't work a sharp slap on the muzzle usually get's their attention. Dogs are definitely happier being dogs, the ones that are really spoilt and treated like humans are sometimes hopeless when in the company of other dogs, they don't really know how the pack structure works. Merry Xmas from Reggie, Nancy Cleo and Me.

The dogs of yesteryear are VERY different to the dogs of today, in alot if not most cases. The exceptions to the rule are predominantly the hunting dogs, pointers, spaniels, foxhounds, blueticks, lurchers, greyhounds etc and the fighting and guard dogs, pitbulls, tosa,staffordshire bulls, rottwiellers, german sheps etc. I believe a good pitbull today would be very similar to a half decent pitbull 200 years ago. I also believe that the reason this is so is because there is a thriving underworld dogfighting subculture that is still breeding for gameness, thus keeping the dog as similar as is possible in temperement to it's ancestors. I buy my dogs from a breeder with a " good" reputation, I buy from him because although I don't EVER fight my dogs, I do take them pig hunting and a dog NEEDS to be game and up for it if he's going to have a crack at a big boar. I could buy my dogs from a nice family but it would be cruel to the dog to take him out on pigs if he's not up to it and I couldn't be confident that the nice family that had bred the dog I am buying, had bred for gameness or looks. My dogs, from the guy with the good rep, will attack a big boar and hold him without any fear. They wag their tails the whole time and absolutely love the whole thing no matter how much the boar throws them around, they won't quit until I physically remove them, even then they are straining to get back to the dead boar. I've had other pits over the years from newspaper breeders and, although lovely dogs, they sometimes lost their bottle when they came across a larger than usual pig and wouldn't be keen to get in there and grab it. If you're thinking I am sitting in a car somewhere watching the action by remote I can assure you I too am in considerable danger from an angry pig and in order to not get killed myself I must be able to count on my grab dogs. I despatch the pig by a long knife straight into the heart, very quick death, the pig immediately collapses. As you can imagine this would be an extremely difficult thing to do if the pig wasn't being held by dogs. These dogs are not snarling, slobbering whirlwinds chained to a post near a 45 gallon drum kennel. I can see Reggie now, he's my new boy, he's nearly 2. He's on his back snoring on the couch with one of my cats curled up near his head. Cleo, my 12 year old retired matron is, as usual, sitting at my feet licking my toes and Nancy, my 4 year old brindle fool is staring at the television, she doesn't usually like the music channel, she prefers animal documentaries. They all get along very well, the pecking order has been well sorted from the start, with me firmly in place as alpha dog. Cleo has retired as alpha female and nancy has taken over. reggie is second in line for top position and he will get it from nancy without a fight, he's a gentleman but he knows how to intimidate her. I have focused the dog's gameness on hunting and have socialised them all with other dogs as pups, they show no real interest in fighting and love people. I think it would be a shame for the breed as a whole if dogfighting was totally stamped out because the pitbull would eventually just become another dog that looks a bit like the old dog of fame and history. This would, in turn, eventually affect the dog's whole attitude and charisma and we would have a watered down version of a dog that is terrific right now. Sorry I have ranted again

The dogs of yesteryear are VERY different to the dogs of today, in alot if not most cases. The exceptions to the rule are predominantly the hunting dogs, pointers, spaniels, foxhounds, blueticks, lurchers, greyhounds etc and the fighting and guard dogs, pitbulls, tosa,staffordshire bulls, rottwiellers, german sheps etc. I believe a good pitbull today would be very similar to a half decent pitbull 200 years ago. I also believe that the reason this is so is because there is a thriving underworld dogfighting subculture that is still breeding for gameness, thus keeping the dog as similar as is possible in temperement to it's ancestors. I buy my dogs from a breeder with a " good" reputation, I buy from him because although I don't EVER fight my dogs, I do take them pig hunting and a dog NEEDS to be game and up for it if he's going to have a crack at a big boar. I could buy my dogs from a nice family but it would be cruel to the dog to take him out on pigs if he's not up to it and I couldn't be confident that the nice family that had bred the dog I am buying, had bred for gameness or looks. My dogs, from the guy with the good rep, will attack a big boar and hold him without any fear. They wag their tails the whole time and absolutely love the whole thing no matter how much the boar throws them around, they won't quit until I physically remove them, even then they are straining to get back to the dead boar. I've had other pits over the years from newspaper breeders and, although lovely dogs, they sometimes lost their bottle when they came across a larger than usual pig and wouldn't be keen to get in there and grab it. If you're thinking I am sitting in a car somewhere watching the action by remote I can assure you I too am in considerable danger from an angry pig and in order to not get killed myself I must be able to count on my grab dogs. I despatch the pig by a long knife straight into the heart, very quick death, the pig immediately collapses. As you can imagine this would be an extremely difficult thing to do if the pig wasn't being held by dogs. These dogs are not snarling, slobbering whirlwinds chained to a post near a 45 gallon drum kennel. I can see Reggie now, he's my new boy, he's nearly 2. He's on his back snoring on the couch with one of my cats curled up near his head. Cleo, my 12 year old retired matron is, as usual, sitting at my feet licking my toes and Nancy, my 4 year old brindle fool is staring at the television, she doesn't usually like the music channel, she prefers animal documentaries. They all get along very well, the pecking order has been well sorted from the start, with me firmly in place as alpha dog. Cleo has retired as alpha female and nancy has taken over. reggie is second in line for top position and he will get it from nancy without a fight, he's a gentleman but he knows how to intimidate her. I have focused the dog's gameness on hunting and have socialised them all with other dogs as pups, they show no real interest in fighting and love people. I think it would be a shame for the breed as a whole if dogfighting was totally stamped out because the pitbull would eventually just become another dog that looks a bit like the old dog of fame and history. This would, in turn, eventually affect the dog's whole attitude and charisma and we would have a watered down version of a dog that is terrific right now.

[quote name='deepseasnake'][quote]One thing we must never forget, if it weren't for the pitbull's fighting ancestry we all wouldn't have the great dogs we have today. It's the fighting ancestry that makes a pit the best dog on the planet. I stress I have never fought my dogs and don't consort with people who do but the dog's attitude, strength, ambition, drive and humour are all due to its ancestry, good or bad.[/quote] what exactly is your point?[/quote] My point is that although people are vociferous in their outrage over dogfighting, and rightly so, the fact remains that the pitbull is the magnificent animal it is [b]because[/b] it's been bred for hundreds of years to be indomitable, hardy, athletic, powerful, never say quit, yet man friendly. There is no doubt that these "fighting breeds" are different from other breeds in many ways. These differences are what attract us to them in the first place. We like their spirit and drive, it's youthful and refreshing to be around a pitbull. My point is that if it weren't for the fighting and bullbaiting history shared by pit bulls and (and other breeds, eg staffy, tosa, etc) we would never have seen this special spirit in the first place. We have to acknowledge that fighting over hundreds of years has produced the dog we have today. Even the most showbred pitbull is game for a scrap or a hunt, it's in his nature and he is well aware that he is physically capable to do the job. His confidence in himself is wonderful. I take my pits out on wild pigs and you can still see that history when they're on a 75 kilogram boar. This hunting does nothing detrimental to their socialisation, they still love my cats and don't ever start a fight with another dog (although if one were picked they would defend themselves with great joy) I'm sure this admission of mine that I take my dogs hunting dangerous animals might ruffle afew feathers but I assure you the dogs LOVE it. The pigs on the other hand are usually rather annoyed, but I'm a greenie and they are feral animals in my country that do untold damage to the environment so I'm not too fussed. Not only that but a 75 kilo boar can feed a pair of dogs for a long time. As for my point, I thought I had expressed it eloquently enough the first time but I thank you for the chance to reiterate.

Hi Kiwimum dogs eating stones is quite common I believe. My old piut bull used to eat stones, usually small pebbles but occasionally a squash ball sized rock or two as well. My vet said some dogs eat stones because they are missing some minerals in their diet, or they need help witht their digestion (kinda like chooks eating grit) and because they are just plain nuts. I think my old pitbull was just plain nuts and that's the reason he ate them. He lived for 15 years and never had a problem with it but apparently some dogs can have complications. Hope it helped a bit??

Guest, I can't say I've ever trained a dog to be a guard but from my experience I have found that the best dogs for alerting you to someone's presence are the toy breeds and small terriers. They always seem to be extra vigilant. They wouldn't be much use if it came to fistycuffs but by God they'd give it their best. I own pit bulls and I wouldn't recomend them as guards, the chances are they would hold the door open for the burglar and help him take the video and tv to his van. :lol: Can anybody tell me where the link is so I can put a pic of my dogs up on my replies??? I've searched high and low and can't seem to find one and I see al your dogs up there and I get jealous :D ..