DogPaddle

I don't think 8 weeks is too often but if they don't stink why would you? Kavik also gets mats behind his ears once in a while, I snip them out myself, no one notices and I don't have to fuss with it. Woman is probably just oversensitive due to the number of actually neglected dogs she sees in her line of work. Don't worry about it but maybe find another groomer. I have to go start a bathing thread now because you have me thinking.

You shouldn't have had to make that decision in your time of crisis. I'm deeply sad for you and know it must have been incredibly hard. I know you made the very best decision you could. Take care of yourself and let us know how you are doing.

Don't mean to contribute to a flame war, just politely discussing. If I've over stepped, let me know K and I'll delete it myself. [quote] Yeah, shes doing something illegal, but shes doing it for the right reasons.[/quote] I read Hmmmm's explanation and I still don't agree that the ends justify the means. I really wonder, does Hmmmm actually mind being called a dog fighter - she admits to fighting her dogs? I think that calling Hmmmm a dog fighter is certainly no worse than calling Kiwi a BYBer and there is the possibility that what Kiwi told us about the early breeding is true and therefor there is a possiblity she might not be a BYBer, while Hmmmm IS a dog fighter. Anyway I vote that both Hmmmm and Kiwi stay. I vote that banished be rebanned :lol: just registering again must be against the rules or something. As for the others who may all be the same person: well I have a problem voting on that as I can't tell them apart. :lol:

Well sadly, Kees aren't the most common of dogs, so you may have quite a search on your hands. It's good that you continue to check rescue groups, perhaps they will eventually get what you are looking for. I could be wrong but I don't think you will find a Kees from a breeder for much less than 800 at least that is what I'd expect around here. I can also understand not wanting to take on the heartbreak of an older dog. What about a crossbreed? Does it have to be pure Kees are will a cross in the colours you liked that looks mostly like a Kees do?

No she didn't say that. Although knowing how people post here we can assume that is what she meant - I certainly took it that way. Further, if she called the AC she must have thought there was some infraction - possibly the pens themselves as there are by-laws regarding that in certain areas. So calling the AC is reasonable. Additionally if she called and complained that the animals were penned and the AC went out then they must have been concerned too. You see if you call the AC and tell them someone dyed the poodle blue they would tell you its no big deal and not go out, they are busy, they only go out when they are concerned. As for calling the AC based on ideology - I see no problem. Some people think it is ok to keep dogs penned in wire bottomed cages all the time, some don't, some ACs will cite for it and some won't - thinking wire bottomed pens is cruel is an ideology. Some people don't think dogs need dog houses even in freezing weather, some do, almost all ACs do and will cite for it - this is also opposing ideologies. Just because people can civilly discuss their opinions and just because you might not discriminate based on these things doesn't meen that the law doesn't.

[url=http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=19916&highlight=backline]Here[/url] Is the thread you were referring to. The original poster mentions nothing of Animal Control but is personally distressed that the dogs spent their life in cages. A responder said the following although I have highlighted a key word: [quote][color=red]if[/color] the dogs are not kept in sanitary conditions, i would contact your local animal control and report him[/quote] So the responder might have inferred from the cages comment that the dogs were in a [b]possible[/b] unsanitary condition as is often the case with caged dogs, naturally something should be done [b]if[/b] this is the case. However the original poster is clear to respond with this: [quote]I did,but the pens are clean and the dogs are well fed so they didn't do anything...[/quote] So while she was concerned about the conditions the dogs were kept in (caged) the breeder had met the bare minimum conditions when the AC looked into it. Other posters indicated varying levels of distress that the law only requires that dogs have access to food and water and not be standing in their own filth in order to meet most by-laws. Perhaps you disagree. Do you think that dogs should be kept in small cages and deliver their pups on the wire floors of their pens, unattended in any sort of weather??

Nice site and dogs. Welcome.

[url=http://www.petfinder.org/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=3990461&adTarget=&SessionID=43154c5630b484b0-app1&display=&preview=1&row=0&tmpl=&stat=]Jake[/url] His coat is growing back in after a cut. [img]http://www.petfinder.org/fotos/NC106/NC106.3990461-1-pn.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.petfinder.org/fotos/NC106/NC106.3990461-3-pn.jpg[/img]

No Kees breeders here that I know of but we love doing petfinder searches. Would you consider an adoption and what are your age preferences? Would you prefer an adult dog already trained or a younger dog? Do you have cats? Do you have kids?

I'm Ontario but if I could find a way to get a critter out here I'd take one till you got back on your feet. (I've to do some fast talking to the roomies first of course.) Anyway glad to hear you're all alive. Thank you so much for checking in. Couple questions if you're up to them: Were you insured? What critters (names, sexes, breeds etc) do you need to place? Are you looking for re-homing or temporary placements for some or all?

[quote]See you all in my next incarnation.[/quote] Do you meen the one after Neom?

Mine don't but I was wondering are you asking because yours do? What kind and what do you do?

[quote]If you quote me, try to use the whole quote instead of twisting my words. Quote: I am a strong believer in the “To each its own” philosophy, so I am not quick to judge. I tend to take a more optimistic view of people and give them the benefit of the doubt when I do not know all the facts. That omitted sentence says it all. [/quote] No the omitted sentence doesn't say it all, it is merely a modifyer or a justification. You think that by not judging you are more optimistic, I think its not taking a strong moral stance. As for knowing all the facts - people asked for them and got told they were interrogating. As for how breeds were developed in the first place - yes I do know. And a great majority of them were developed or finalized by careful breeding of SHOWN and TITLED animals working and otherwise. Now of course we have genetic testing which can eliminate some but not all, of course, health problems and greatly reduce the number of unhealthy animals and greatly reduce the number of animals needed in a breeding program SO WE SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT.

Even were it not a scam, which it does seem to be, I wouldn't sell him puppies. He didn't ask the right questions and only a very experienced person would be able to train even two puppies properly but three BC's - :shock: Even were it not a scam, what does he want [b]3[/b] BC pups for - indiscriminate breeding, research facility, herding a big herd of cows or sheep without worrying about the herding skill of the parents???

As for Kiwi and Hmmmm - some people agree with each of them, some have reservations with either of them and some disagree with either of them sometimes quite strongly. The point is that they don't throw huge fits or claim we are all crackpots or dog nazis or whatever. (At least very little and mostly at each other :lol: ) So a mutual dialogue about the things we disagree about is still possible and they aren't just trolling. I myself disagree vehemently with Hmmmm's practices and we've had some rows over it but the rows were over our opinions on the practice and no ban was necassary. I still hold out hope of changing her mind, although it is a slight hope :lol: , and presumably she holds out hope that I'll see the light or doesn't care that I disagree. Either way more purpose is served by her remaining here.

[quote]You call animal control on people. It's in threads. [/quote] Yes look in the threads. We call Animal Control on people for the conditions in which they keep their dogs or mistreatment and only within the bounds of the law (of course different ACs have different mandates, laws and powers) which most of us are aware of. [quote]and just being a responsible breeder does not mean nothing bad will ever come to you. You all need on your gravestones the words "I am a responsible breeder" [/quote] Are you psychotic? What does any of this have to do with our eventual demises? Are you threatening people? Of course being a responsible breeder won't protect [b]YOU[/b] from "bad" things or death but its not about protecting [b]YOU[/b] from death its about being responsible and protecting animals from mistreatment. Sheesh, egocentric much? [quote]It is really sad when a post is getting deleted because of who posted it rather then what it said.[/quote] No it isn't sad, its part of the forum rules - you do enough to get banned then you don't get to post anymore that is what banning is all about. [quote]I am a strong believer in the “To each its own” philosophy, so I am not quick to judge.[/quote] I know people like you in the real world. The think they are of strong moral character because they "don't judge people." I think they have no values. Like a fellow I knew at work who was friends with white supremists and when asked why he said "I don't judge my friends based on their values or opinions, I don't judge people." :o [quote]I believe that the best way to improve a breed and find out about problems that may lurk in the genes is through multiple breeding of what works,...Having 12 litters a year will only speed up the process and will give you a good idea of what your line produces.[/quote] OK that must be plain old troll bait because no one could really think it would be ok to produce hundreds perhaps thousands of dogs to "find out about problems that may lurk in the genes" when genetic testing and breeding on proven, titled, correct dogs would work instead.[/b]

[quote]This board is certainly not a democracy[/quote] Democracy definition: 1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives. 2. A political or social unit that has such a government. 3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power. 4. Majority rule. 5. The principles of social equality and respect for the rights of the individual within a community. How we compare to each point: 1. K and the other mods were all elected. Anytime their modship is question any of them are willing to submit to a vote to see if they should be removed. 2 We are a social unit and we are governed in a way that matches the other sections of the definition. 3. See point 1, further ANYONE who is a member can vote on a ban or place a complaint regarding a mod to the appropriate person. 4. A vote was called for regarding banning you, K would have prefferred you banned, there was not a majority in favour of that - you are not banned - majority ruled. 5. Everyone can vote, everyone can state their opinion, everyone can state their opinion about everyone else's opinion. You stated your opinion - people were free to respond and ask questions, you were free to respond to that - that is why this thread is heated and long. I'd say we definately meet the definition of a democracy. Now if we hadn't been allowed to disagree with you and had to shut up and accept what YOU wanted us to accept THEN that wouldn't have been democratic. :wink: And yes I definately differentiate between killing someone and banning them from a board - very different things. I also differentiate between the tormenting and killing of millions based on race and disagreeing with and applying social pressure to people who I believe are making poor moral choices. Call me crazy but those things just aren't the same. Oh and the folks who are disagreeing with you aren't whinning when they disagree with you - they are disagreeing, questioning, sharing info and if they are expressing any emotion it is frustration - those things are also different. (OK well, maybe we whinned over how many Normas we get but everyone is entitled to a little exasperated whinning now and then.)

[quote]the president has been called a nazi (public newspapers and on TV. Very public)and no one tracked down those people and took them out[/quote] And no one is suggesting that you be tracked down and taken out either. Sheeesh. [quote]Come on, we all know what is meant by nazi. It does not mean one is actually a member of that political party.[/quote] So you are clear that you aren't accusing us of having a paticular political affiliation but rather would like to assure us you meant the colloquial meaning which would be a facist who uses violence and oppression to achieve their means - geee thanks for re-assuring us. [quote]I avoid games, snobs and stress. [/quote] For someone who thinks we are snobs you sure do seem to have put a lot of effort into convincing us that what you do is ok. As for games - no one here is playing. [quote]Look, some people are into the whole show thing. They love it. Good for them. I do not love it. The whole game does not appeal to me.[/quote] You still don't get it - it's not a game, it's not a preference, it's not something done for pleasure or as a recreation (although some people do enjoy it.) This isn't an egocentric, "but I don't feel like doing that" sort of issue, its's an issue of what is responsible.

[quote]Fact of the matter is that you and many others impose their values and standards on others. I think I can safely say most people do not like religious folk trying to put their values and standareds on others, trying to make laws according to their values. You want animal laws according to your values.[/quote] Just a little clarification and differentiation for you: Societies are defined as "A group of humans broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture." from dictionary.com Societies don't just happen they are built. Usually a common set of ideals and beliefs predominate. In todays societies many people feel that a single religous group should not hold sway as there is sooooo much diversity. However, most people feel that there still should be a set of rules reflecting a general morality, restricted not by any one group, but representing the best intentions of the whole in general. And in fact morals that you find in diverse religeons are reflected in the general secular morals of the broader society - such as not killing. These morals are not plucked out of the air, nor are they static, they change and grow and presumably progress towards a more fair, equitable and humane society - one that we would not be embarrassed to be part of, especially when we are one day evaluated by our succesors. Change does not occur broadly all at once, that doesn't mean it isn't good of course but almost all societal changes start small and then grow as awarness is raised. What you are railing about is based on good solid facts, a desire to improve the humane treatment of companion animals, and a desire to make owning companion animals a realistic option in our crowded world. It puts responsibility and humane principles ahead of self interest or whimsical desire. Granted not everyone shares the view but then not everyone has looked into it, visited petfinder, realized why so many pets are euthanized or dumped at shelters. It takes committed people to bring awarness to society so that society can come to an informed consensus and make positive changes. What we are asking is really not onerous but it does require people to set aside self interest in favour of humaneness and responsibility. Why then would it bother you? What about it is sooo bad or difficult? What really is the other side of the argument? That some people want to breed so they should be able to without being encouraged to meet some standard, without being pressured to do so in a humane and responsible way? Should we just say to hell with all those animals in shelters and treat animals like fashion accessories? Should we churn out a pile of unhealthy animals, or a pile of animals with bad temperments? Should the non-pet owning members of sodiety have to deal with the fallout from that? You don't agree - that's your perogative. However, don't try to tell people they are intrusive for trying to do good, trying to raise awareness.

That definately qualifies as a big grey puffball. :lol: Very cute.

Bouviers are nice dogs. You should do some research if you are interested in one. They are not all calm and docile - although adequate excercise and training go a very long way to making them so. Here is a [url=http://animal.discovery.com/guides/dogs/selector/profile.jsp?id=1080]link[/url] to start with. Of course no dogs are free, even when there is no cost to adopt them, vet bills, emergencies, food, collars, toys etc add up fast but adopting costs some less than buying from a breeder and you have the satisfaction of providing a much needed home to a dog whose temperment is already known. Check out [url=http://www.petfinder.org]Petfinder[/url]. There are no bouviers in NJ but there are a couple close. They aren't common dogs so you could just keep checking back with petfinder until a suitable one occurs within a few hours of you.

Cool

Well depends on your dog in part. Some dogs are sensitve to some protien sources but if that isn't a problem - chicken, turkey, lamb and beef are all fine. My personal first picks for dog foods are: home prepared if you have the time and do your research well Innove or Innova's Evo Canidae Wellness Chicken Soup (for dogs - its a real dog food brand) Wysong Solid Gold There are some good threads on here about foods, browse about, there are LOTS of opinions but good info too. And I agree on the time thing - puppies growing too fast is a problem - joint and muscular/skeletal problems.

Maybe you misheard them and its a Pit Bull Terrier? Post a pic here or at the least describe the dog - there are lots and lots and lots of terrier types - from Yorkies to Airdales and Wheatons to Staffordshires. :D

There are three dogs that come to mind immediately when you say Belgian Sheepdog. [url=http://animal.discovery.com/guides/dogs/selector/profile.jsp?id=1040] Belgian Malinois[/url] [url=http://animal.discovery.com/guides/dogs/selector/profile.jsp?id=1050]Belgian Sheepdog - Groenendael[/url] [url=http://animal.discovery.com/guides/dogs/selector/profile.jsp?id=1060]Belgian Tervuren [/url] Unfortunately none of them are grey and fluffy and they are only slightly larger than middles sized dogs, they are high energy and drive (not quiet) and not paticularly good with kids although they wouldn't be bad for dog savy children over say 9 years of age approximately. Anyone else have a guess. Post some pics it may help us.