TLCPETS

[quote name='JudyHoffman']I may misunderstand, so please be patient. <<<Are you saying that you would breed a litter and keep all the puppies (not sell them) and then breed those puppies back to each other to improve your bloodlines?>>>> No this is not what I am saying. <<<Wouldn't this be considered inbreeding or linebreeding and if so, wouldn't that cause severe genetic problems with any offspring eventually?>>>> Not neccesarily. Inbreeding/linebreeding doesnt create problems. It merely brings hidden problems to the forefront (ie) recessive to recessive genes. <<<I think over time you would be causing more harm to your bloodlines than good and not it's not very ethical IMVHO. I heard of a Belgian Sheepdog breeder who did this very same thing with 4 littermates. Her goal was to have a 10 generation pedigree just off of the original 4 dogs ...... I believe the results were so disastrous health wise, she never bred or had another dog again.>>> I think this lady should have done her homework on genetics. <<<If this is true then the breeder is somewhat responsible for what happens to the pup. It is up to the breeder to conduct a thorough screening and reference checking before placing a pup, whether free or not.[/QUOTE]>>> True, but people do lie.

How ethical would it be for a breeder to breed only to improve thier bloodline? No puppies would be outed to the public. All puppies not kept by breeder for breeding/show purposes would be euthanized. I am so tired of all the breeder titles that comes with selling puppies, and if you give them away......it's worse. 9 times out of 10 a free dog/puppy is a mistreated dog/puppy. Would this be responsible, ethical or what? Edit: Why not spay/neuter? Because I dont breed to furnish no one with puppies but myself. I dont need to sell puppies to support my hobby.

[quote name='TLCPETS']You can call me anything that makes you or anyone else happy. Here is an email I have received twice. <<<<Dear Tomtom, We have no papers, But she is full blooded Chihuahua. We live in TX. She's a fawn color [beige, and off white] with white socks, and a white mark on her forehead. Her mother Prissy, is the same color. Short haired and short legged. Father was tan with white markings, short haired, and tall. Both parents are also full blooded. We're not interested in selling any of the puppy's if we breed her. Lil Bit is like one of my kids, actually she is better then my kids. If I can't find a male, then I've decided to get her fixed. If you can't help me, do you know anyone who might be able to? >>>> My reply was: <<<<< It sounds like you really love your dog.In my opinion you should just buy another puppy.In all reality your girl could require a c-section to get the puppies and you could very well lose her in the process, and the puppies.You will still have to pay vet cost.I dont think I am interested.>>>>> I hope I was not rude but got my point across.[/quote] Last email: tom tom Thank you very much,I'm going to do just that. I have my first grandbaby on the way. I want lil bit to be here for along time. You have a nice weekend..

[quote name='roo']:WTF:[/quote] :niewiem:

You can call me anything that makes you or anyone else happy. Here is an email I have received twice. <<<<Dear Tomtom, We have no papers, But she is full blooded Chihuahua. We live in TX. She's a fawn color [beige, and off white] with white socks, and a white mark on her forehead. Her mother Prissy, is the same color. Short haired and short legged. Father was tan with white markings, short haired, and tall. Both parents are also full blooded. We're not interested in selling any of the puppy's if we breed her. Lil Bit is like one of my kids, actually she is better then my kids. If I can't find a male, then I've decided to get her fixed. If you can't help me, do you know anyone who might be able to? >>>> My reply was: <<<<< It sounds like you really love your dog.In my opinion you should just buy another puppy.In all reality your girl could require a c-section to get the puppies and you could very well lose her in the process, and the puppies.You will still have to pay vet cost.I dont think I am interested.>>>>> I hope I was not rude but got my point across.

[quote]Out Crossing is often done in a breeding program to bring in somthing that is lacking.[/quote] And should be done with caution since you can also bring in flaws that your original line does not have.JMO. :)

[quote name='Prairie_Gurl']LOL. So, out crossing means to breed your dog to a dog that isn't closely related to your own dog, but staying in the same breed. In Breeding is when you breed your dog to one of his/her sisters, brothers, mother, or father. And Line Breeding is when you breed your dog to another dog pretty closely related (grandparent, uncle,etc.) but not part of it's immidiate family like in breeding. But you totally lost me there on that whole 8th generation thing. Jez, this stuff is pretty complicated LOL.[/quote]] <<<But you totally lost me there on that whole 8th generation thing.>>. Ok up to 8 geneations they are line bred.After 8 generations it is "out crossed' since the inbreeding co-efficient would mean they were no longer as closely related . :)

Out crossing means breeding from a line far removed so as unrelated to your own line.But you do stay in the same breed. Line breeding is using dogs with a close inbreeding co-efficient uncle niece,aunt nephew, cousins,grandparents. In breeding is sire daughter,mother son,brother sister. I am going 1 step further(at my expense)With in a 7 generation pedigree it would be called line breeding as outlined above.After 7 generations even though related in the 8th generation it would be called an out cross. I hope I did not make any mistakes.LOL They love to correct me so now you will get your info. :fadein: :fadein:

[quote name='DogPaddle']I viewed a few sites before I joined this one. Reasons I chose this board: [color=green][size=6]1) People are freindly and knowledable.[/size][/color] 2) There were few flamers or trolls. 3) People expressed there opinions well. 3) The site was well organized and covered a variety of topics. People here answered my questions, helped me, didn't flame me, asked questions if I didn't explain myself fully. They didn't become my bestest freinds and flock to me for guidance just because I joined this forum. K is a valuable member of this site, almost everyone here knows that, nothing else to say on that topic. Anywho I think we should all have cookies an milk now, who's turn is it too read the storey?[/quote] Mine: puppy kisses are GREAT and dog licks are bettter.LOL If a puppy/dog can not make it better IT IS a lost situation.

[quote name='Poofy']Yes, your right, true "blue" is dilution of color..the trick though would be trying to help some one understand the difference so that the genetics could be worked out...[/quote] Yes but 2 blues and a black in a litter from a blue and a brown sable makes it hard.And then three blues from a blk/wht female and a blue male all the puppies are from light to dark blue makes it harder.You can tell by looking at littermates the darker the blue is the better the hair coat.

GOSH

[quote name='Hobbit']Not all dogs that are being shown are worthy of being bred. There are many dogs that are being shown that should be spayed or neutered, but aren't.[/quote] Hobbit I agree. I think the future holds all dogs shown will have to have all health testing done before they are allowed in the show ring.I wonder which registry will require it first or if a new registry who only shows proven healthy dogs within the breed standard to be shown.With the changes in the last 5 years or so.Imagine 5 years from now.

[quote name='Jacsmom'][url]http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/1495/disorders.html[/url] Here are disorders in Chi's There is a page 2.[/quote] Thanks Jacsmom.There are lots of places on the net with good info.I have lots of them bookmarked and read alot.I still get links I have never found.

New year new priorities, I really know you are good with genetics.But it does take time and understanding.As you know my breed is Chihuahuas and I love blues. I have come to think the color. Alopecia is coming from the breeding of Fawn to blues and blue to blue.I think the link in blue Alopecia in Chihuahuas stems from the dilute to dilute breedings.The blues really got big after the Fawns(taco bell dog)I know you are a schnauzer breeder but know genetics pretty well.If I breed black and white and blue together can I still get my blues without having to worry years down the road about Alopecia.Ther must be a way and I do love the blue coloring.It seems like the darker the blue the better the hair coat and the lighter the blue the thinner the coat.There is a way, if No-one can find a link between fawn (dilute) and blue (dilute) being what causes Alopecia I will stick with Blk/Wht.I really want to get a healthy blue going but will not jeopardize health over color.

[quote name='TLCPETS'][quote name='Hobbit']Oh yeah, I am very much aware of USDA rules and reg's. As far as AKC .... have nothing to do with them.[/quote] Aren't they the ones who cover all the breeders USDA doesnt???? ROTFLMAO.[/quote] They can promise who the sire was, but not the dam, or the health of the sire/dam.Can They?

[quote name='Hobbit']Oh yeah, I am very much aware of USDA rules and reg's. As far as AKC .... have nothing to do with them.[/quote] Aren't they the ones who cover all the breeders USDA doesnt???? ROTFLMAO.

[quote name='Hobbit'][quote name='TLCPETS'] [ My emotions are mixed.I think if I can whelp one litter in my house then a licensed breeder should be able too also.But according to regulations your house is not good enough to whelp puppies and meet USDA requirements.[/quote] I'm reading the rules and reg's with a different opinion. Personally, I'm not worried about the USDA requirements. If I want to whelp out a litter of pups in house, then I do it.......and have done it and will continue to do it. But, then again....we do not sell to pet families. According to tax law in some Counties, our dogs are considered Agriculture and are tax exempt.[/quote] It just has had me worried for a long time.I am glad it is over?????????

[quote name='Hobbit']Yep, that would make more sense, wouldn't it? BUT, I have seen some sorry excuses of a hog and cattle operation. Some people just do not care about the animal. They are not going to take time to do things humanely or correctly. If you see how some small hog farmers treat their hogs and piglets....you'd have nightmares. Not to mention some of the Dairy farmers and their treatment of the bull calves and cows (in general).[/quote] Same with dogs but most who are really bad are not under USDA.If you think AKC has rules get a USDA handbook.AKC has a flyer, USDA has a book.

[quote name='Hobbit']Told you. TLC --- I keep getting mixed signals here. If you are worried/concerned about the humane treatment of persons selling pets from their home, then you should seek to pressure local laws and ordinance from a City, County and/or State level. Many people view animals......as JUST an animal, including a dog. Their views are such that the way a person treats an animal (dog) is their business, because it is JUST an animal --- no feelings, no emotion, not on the level of humans. These same people also treat humans in a poorly manner, also.[/quote] <<<Why are you (were you) so worried about this?>>>> This has worried me for years since it could hurt the ones who are truely dedicated to bettering the breed they love.But on the other hand it lets a lot out who do not care. <<<Were you (are you) worried that you can no longer sell pets without being regulated?>>> I was regulated with 7 dogs and proud of it until I got internet access and found out USDA breeders were considered as trash.Even though they were inspected by USDA. <<<OR, are you worried that regulation would put you out of business?>>> My USDA inspecter helped me build my whole operation and told me how,when,where.My vet told me if you start with junk you end with junk. You build your reputation either bad or good.Your choice. My emotions are mixed.I think if I can whelp one litter in my house then a licensed breeder should be able too also.But according to regulations your house is not good enough to whelp puppies and meet USDA requirements.

[url]http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs/common/opinions/200301/01-5351a.txt[/url] Now comes the battle.You were right sandyb :D But if you think these groups are going to quit. :cry: They want everybody regulated and have nothing to lose. As a matter of fact they were not trying to change the big breeders laws just the smaller breeders.They start at the bottom and work up to the top. I know they are MAD now. So they are twice as bad. :mad: So where will they go next?They will not quit the donations are still coming in.

[quote name='Hobbit'][quote name='Watchdog']Hobbit, Yes, I am speaking of farmers that quit farming hogs and crops to farm dogs. They are making more money on dogs. They make few changes, add fencing around hog houses and put a few dogs in each pen.[/quote] Maybe in Illinois --- but, there is a MILLION head swine operation in the Texas panhandle that is definately making more money with swine, than dogs. The hog houses (most of them) that I've seen are immaculant. The hogs are housed in barns (finishing, gestation, or farrowing) with concrete floors that have an automatic wash system. The feces and urine is washed into a lagoon (not a septic system --- which is against State rules and reg's in Texas). In the lagoon, the effluent vaporates or is used as irrigation on fields. It's all concrete, there are no muddy pens > because mud stresses an animal and causes weight loss, lessens rate of gain, health problems. There are minimum flies, because they have automatic fly spray systems. There are no mosquito's because they have automatic water bowls. The hogs press a bar that fills the bowl up, water doesn't usually stand in the bowls, and if it does .... it's not for long. Most barns are equipped with fans, water mist systems and the concrete stays cool in the summer. There are heat lamps for the winter for warmth. I know this wasn't a HOG issue ---- but, most hog producers (here in Texas) take pride in their program, their hogs and their housing....and are making more money off the hogs, then they would selling dogs. Like anything else, there are also bad hog producers. They usually don't stay in business very long. Depending on the number of hogs or cattle > they are regulated in Texas ---- but, that's another OFF THE TOPIC story.[/quote] I agree Hobbitt these people do not have a million dollar operation to neglect it.They are rich to begin with.With no plans to lose their investment.ANYTHING they need for the business is a tax deduction so why cut corners.The same with dogs all Testing is TAX deductible Food is Tax deductible.EVERY expense is tax deductible.Every CH is tax deductible. Thats AMERICA.

[quote name='Hobbit']I am so glad that my dogs are not registered with the AKC and never will be. The AKC has become an evil empire, large Corporation, that is forever seeking monitary ways to feed the fat monster. Backstabbing, badmouthing, clawing the way to the top, it's who-knows-who, who is sleeping with whom, well known handler (no matter that their dog really isn't the best, they win anyway for who they are), money - money and more money. Maybe it started out being "all about the dog", but has grown past that into all about reaching and achieving the "golden dog".[/quote] Whats next?I think DNA ing all females is already on the books. Then DNAing all puppies @ $40.00 each before litter registration can be issued.I think then it wiill have integrity but will be above the average pet buyers reach since the DNA and the papers can not promise quality.

What I am saying is a lot has changed in 25 years since the AWA.I am sure pet store sales are down from the negative publicity.If there are no brokers,there would be no need for breeders to fall under USDA. Times do change.There will always be USDA and AWA but without brokers there will be very few breeders under USDA.

I think in 5 years there will be very few breeders under USDA. Unlike 25 years ago when the AWA was passed and there was no internet to sell puppies most big breeders used brokers to move large numbers at a time.Now the middle man gets a cut and the pet store also makes a little. But with direct sales they get the whole thing and no USDA regulations. Lots of breeders are selling now through the (retail pet store loophole) and more are going to join.25 years changes a lot of things.1 being all puppies come from brokers which is untrue.A lot of petstores buy direct and then resell.I think they can buy 25 puppies from the same breeder without the breeder being regulated.(Hobby breeder) I think.Since pet stores do not fall under USDA(retail pet store).The (hobby breeder) saves them quite a bit. I think unless the loophole(retail pet store) is closed within 5 years brokers may not exist.Hence, bye- bye USDA and AWA. Time to rethink????

[quote name='Poofy']yeah, but if they presented to the public, the BILLIONS in tax dollars that it is gonna cost for those regulations...they would probably change their tune...mighty quick...[/quote] I disagree.It's for the good of mans best friend and cost is irrelevant.What would the cost to you and me amount to per year $1.00-$2.00 maybe? Remember this is not about breeding practices but the welfare of dogs in general.