Horsefeathers!

Oh, Lordy! Our southern bred frogs are poisonous?! Eeeek! One of my dogs mauls them all the time. Our property is overrun with frogs (I'm not a frog-ologist and have no idea what all kinds we have except tree frogs) and my Penny, though I don't think she actually consumes them, does maul them and toss them around. YUCK! Thanks for nothing, guest! You should know by now that any time I read of some other type of danger, the laws of nature demand that it befall my household. Therefore, I expect my Penny to become horribly ill any day from "frog-o-toxo-lick-em-osis" and it will all be YOUR fault! You have cursed me. Cursed, I say!:evil:

Now I'm curious, having read your other post elsewhere and noticing your ummm passion, for lack of another word. What percentage of a dog's total diet do you feel should consist of protein and red meat vs white meat? 100%? 50%? What percentage of carbs and what percentage of beta carotenes? I'm thinking this may be where the agreement ends...

Wow, Gunsmoke, we share some of the initial same views! I agree 100% with what you've stated so far. Even with higher priced foods, it's still buyer beware. I have eight dogs in my household and did have one of them (allergy dog) on the raw (BARF) diet for a while and she is one that did not do so well on it. My dogs now all get OMH Wellness supplemented with a cooked diet (not that it needs to be supplemented.... it just makes [b][u]me[/u][/b] feel better). My next choice is Three Dog Bakery. Also, I've found out that "human grade" claims are not always all they're cracked up to be. Nutro, for example, pulled their human grade claim after being confronted about the actual contents. Add to that the number of foods tested by the FDA found to contain sodium pentobarbital (the drug commonly used to euthanize animals)... ya just never know... :-?

Maybe [u]your[/u] dogs haven't had any problems from pigs' ears, but I've known, personally, of too many dogs who did get sick from them. According to the vet, it was salmonella. I was skeptical at first, but apparently, it's not at all uncommon. I've heard that you have to be careful of who you buy them from, but I've got too many dogs in my household to take the chance on one out of the whole bunch getting sick. Of course, I've been accused of being entirely too cautious about these things, but, as I've said before, any time I am made aware of some new (to me) illness, it occurs within my household. Always, every single stinkin' time :roll: . I give mine natural treats, or Kongs filled with something enticing. 8) As far as letting dogs be dogs... if I'd let mine, they'd just as soon eat week old road kill! :P

Gizmo, I hate to disagree, and this isn't aimed at Reality, personally, or a direct response to the auctioning, but if dogs weren't mass produced in mills and backyards, there would be no need to find them homes. :(

One reason I will never get into conformation showing is because it is way too political. At one time, I was considering showing Lhasa Apsos, so I started doing the appropriate homework and talked to what few show people I could get to give me the time of day. I saw some dogs that didn't do so well when handled by the owner that actually won when handled by a professional (popular) handler. I'm sure a lot of it is in the handling, but I just saw too many things that I decided are certainly not for me. Most of the show people I've dealt with are rude snobs (sorry to the show people here who are not). It's too "clique-ish" for me and, in many cases, unfair. I've seen mediocre dogs win over good ones depending on who was on the other end of the lead. While I understand that it's certainly more than a beauty contest and there are many factors to be judged upon, the best dog does not always win. I groom pet dogs (way different than show grooming most breeds) and when I approached handlers for tips, or just wanted to watch, I was often snubbed. No, I didn't ask them as they were entering the ring. Anyway, more power to you if you can put up with the conformation BS. I couldn't do it. Instead, we are doing therapy work and I will probably eventually get into obedience and agility where you are actually judged on performance and there's a lot more fairness involved in the judging.

DANG! I just found out that I can't post multiple pictures! Let me see if I can make sense... I added a picture on another post of my Yorkie. Then I put a picture on another post of my Toy Poodle. Then I went and changed my profile and put this picture of one of my Lhasas on it. When I did that, ALL the pictures I've posted are now of my Lhasa. Even on old posts where I never had a picture before. Did I make this clear as mud? So if you change the picture in your profile, it changes ALL your pictures, past and present. Oh, well... I learned something new, so when you see me talking about Yorkies and Poodles, but don't see anything even remotely resembling such, I'm not crazy. Honest. Well, ok, THAT doesn't make me crazy. :o Told you my posts always come in groups... :oops:

I just realized how out of place I am. Everyone else is posting pictures of big ol' dogs. In the midst of all these big, strong breeds, I'm posting pictures of my Yorkie and Toy Poodle. LOL, I'm as out of place as can be! :roll: I've got some other more serious looking dogs that I'll post pictures of so I won't be SO out of place. *blush* :P

Gizmo, re safflower oil... it's an edible drying oil that is low in saturated fatty acids, is obtained from the seeds of the safflower, and is often used in diets low in cholesterol. In other words, it has what you'd want from an oil in regard to skin care and yadda without so much of the bad stuff you think of when you think oils. It's usually available in most of the larger grocery stores. Re raisins... I'm still learning about this, but apparently dogs have died from ingesting too many raisins/grapes. I guess the term "too many" grapes would depend a lot on individual dogs, so since I have a lot of tiny dogs around, I just don't give them any at all. See, the way my luck runs is.... once I've heard of some newfangled ailment du jour, it usually strikes one of my critters. Like within a week of the very first time I ever heard anything about urinary blockages in cats, one of my cats blocked. Soooooo... when I read of a substantiated danger, I tend to drive myself entirely nuts trying to avoid it. :roll:

Oh, Lordy... I really hate to do this... Basically, all you are saying is that if people are going to get animals from [b]somewhere[/b], they might as well get them by way of you. You are saying it's not unethical because there are other venues that are are similar in nature to yours (classified ads, etc.). Also, you state effectively that it's not YOUR (collectively, in reference to anyone selling animals) responsibility to worry about what happens to the animals sold... it's a "buyer beware" market. While I agree that a person buying a pet through these venues bears some responsibility, it's still not ethical to take advantage of ignorant people. If one is going to take advantage of ignorance, at least don't profit from the sales of live animals. Sell cars, or something... ANYTHING else. I guess I differentiate between "legal" and "ethical." Just because something is legal doesn't make it ethical. By the same token, just because something is illegal, I don't believe it is automatically unethical. I, too, am a "thief" (and proudly so) when it comes to animal welfare (not animal rights which is a whole totally different can of worms) and will and HAVE taken a dog from an irresponsible owner. Yes, I sleep just fine at night with that knowledge. Illegal? Certainly. Unethical? I guess it depends on your definition, but, to me, legal and ethical are two entirely different things. But I digress... Anyway, I am always willing to educate myself about things I don't know much about, so I was hoping you were going to be shedding some insight as to why it's not as bad as one might perceive about animal auctions. That's why I didn't respond immediately. I was thinking perhaps I would learn something. Basically, all I've learned is that it's legal and other people do it and people are going to buy live animals, ANYWAY, so [b]you[/b] might as well capitalize on it, too. How disappointing!

[quote name='Anonymous']Jigger If they want one for a pet, then that is great. It has been my experience though, that anything with a boxy head is called a pit. We seldom see a purebred pit.[/quote] Heck, around here, it can boxy heads, snipey faces, long floppy ears, erect ears, 25 lbs, 100+ lbs... if it's not any other type of discernible breed, it's automatically a "pit bull." Of course, if it has ANY more than just a slick coat, it's automatically a "chow." :-?

Ok, I'll answer the question as was asked. How many dogs I've known, personally, that died with testicular cancer... the answer is none. I don't know of a single one, personally. However, I don't know anyone, personally, who ever died while running with scissors, playing Russian Roulette, choking on a hotdog, or being eaten by an alligator, but it could happen... *wink* :smile: Really, I'm just being silly and not trying to influence your decision one way or another. I just don't think it's really a fair question or a good way to base your decision to ask who knows of a dog, personally, that died with such.

On the subject of commercial dog food, here is some info on the government studies of foods containing pentobarbital. Check it out and see if the brand you're feeding made the list. Keep in mind that not every single brand is represented and that even some of the brands that did not appear to contain pentobarbital still provide less than adequate nutrition, but that's a different ball game. As far as the government is concerned, if you want to know if your dog food company is STILL using pentobarb, you'll just have to call the company and ask them. Isn't that nice? Reckon they'd be honest enough to admit it?[url]http://www.krdotv.com/displaystory.asp?id=3986[/url] Copy and paste that address into your browser and then click on the links to the right of the page for info. <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Horsefeathers! on 2002-05-20 18:49 ]</font>

Another Standard Poodle fan here, though at one time I thought they were mutant lawn ornaments. Highly intelligent, very athletic and agile, excellent temperament. I've never met a St Poo I didn't like. They don't shed, but they have a lot of hair to maintain. You'll never find Poodle hair (or shouldn't) embedded in carpets, furniture, clothes... :smile: Not likely to be your choice, I wouldn't imagine, but was surprised to see some other Standard Poodle fans weigh in. I can't wait to get one!

>>>Would you ever make your human friend wear a rabies tag and Id tag and a collar...<<< The law here has never required the licensing and vaccinating of human friends, but if they did, my human friends would be the first ones to get a nifty new collars and tags. :smile: Sorry... couldn't resist.

I guess I straddle the fence on it. I am not one who believes that everything walking should be spayed/neutered, BUT I feel that far too many people are not responsible enough with intact pets. If I only had one or two dogs, same sex AND could guarantee that I could secure them in such a way that no other dog could dig/chew/fight their way to them to breed, I probably wouldn't bother. It seems females have a higher risk of problems from being intact and not bred than males... ok, well, in MY experience, at least. Two of my females had problems with pyometra (sp?) and I had no choice but to spay them, anyway. However, I have eight dogs living in my household plus lots of neighborhood loose roaming dogs. All of mine are spayed and neutered. My opinion (since you asked)? It all depends on how diligent a person is. If you can keep them from roaming loose, fighting to get to females and breeding, then you are probably responsible enough to handle intact dogs if that's what you choose. <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Horsefeathers! on 2002-05-19 13:55 ]</font>

Medically necessary? Well i guess we do need to cut them for every litter since the breeders have mutated these dogs for pure cosmetic reasons, or you think this is how the breed started? ^^^Don't know how I missed that. Hmmm... you sound intelligent enough. I thought you would have understood that I meant potentially medically necessary. As in if it were deemed necessary (doo doo happens). Not that I think it needs to be done for every litter. Sorry. I thought that would be obvious. Besides, it was really more of a rhetorical question that had nothing to do with the subject at hand. I was just sort of thinking out loud, so to speak. I'll try to be more articulate in my postings. My boo boo. :smile: <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Horsefeathers! on 2002-05-19 13:36 ]</font>

In other words, BARF is NOT totally safe. Guess what? I didn't skip any of the aforementioned steps. I was diligent beyond belief. Nope, nothing wrong in my execution of the diet as per the "experts." Doo doo happens, I suppose, but RAW doo doo won't be happening to MY dog again. The only thing I could have done differently is raise my own chickens and cows and handle them from birth to slaughter to dinner table, but that's about as likely to happen as a Lawrence Welk spot in the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame. If other folks are able to do that, then go for it. I don't live on a farm. Anyone in the market for some "all natural" dog books? I've got a stack of 'em and have read 'em all and BLAH!

Just to present the other side.... I had one of my allergy dogs on the BARF diet. Bought the books and joined the lists. She did well on it for months. Her coat, skin and teeth never looked better. However, she became ill with salmonella. From eating the same meat we eat (of course, we don't eat it raw) as per our vet and lab reports. The people on the lists insisted that I must have done something wrong. Yeah, right, how many ways are there to feed raw meat to a dog? I followed all the "experts'" advice. I've long since found out that my dog's illness wasn't an isolated incident. Your dog may not get sick, the gazillions of dogs whose owners are on these lists may not get sick, but MY dog got sick and so have many others whose people I have talked to. Enough for me to never try it again. Just to present the side that says that it is not without risk, no matter how well you research it. I feed a holistic diet supplemented with cooked food as per a published canine nutritionist I am working with. I'm having much better luck so far. <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Horsefeathers! on 2002-05-18 12:44 ]</font>

Are you seriously comparing a medically necessary procedure that could mean the difference between life and death for a mom and her pups to a purely cosmetic procedure, the only similarity being the anesthesia?

*Deep breath* I have an old Yorkie named Goober guesstimated to be in his mid teens, two Lhasa Apsos aged four and five years named Missy and Fred (hate cutesy names, but Missy is short for Misdemeanor), a Bully/Boxer mix named Penny who is three years old, a six year old (estimated) black Lab named Tucker, a six year old (estimated) Mini Schnauzer named Simon, a five year old Chihuahua named Chico, and a three year old Toy Poodle named Peanut (girl). <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Horsefeathers! on 2002-05-16 17:03 ]</font>

I, too, feed Wellness and supplement with a cooked diet. Canine nutrition has become a major interest to me.

That's great! I'd feel much better about that decision, too. My own Mini Schnauzer came to me as a stray at about the age of 5-6 years old. He's a wonderful dog. Some things to know... Schnauzers do tend to be vocal dogs. Just thought you'd like to know. I work with LOTS of Schnauzers and most of them are very "talkative." Another thing to consider... before actually making the purchase, be sure to contact your area groomers for grooming rates to be sure you can commit to it. Many people have bought high maintenance dogs and THEN decided they couldn't afford the maintenance. Schnauzers typically should be groomed at least every 6 weeks or so. Be shopping around for a groomer you can be comfortable with. Another thing... Schnauzers require LOTS of positive reinforcement, but you have to assert your position as top dog. They do tend to like to challenge authority, if given the opportunity (it's the terrier in them!). However, TOO firm a hand often results in them becoming fearful and reclusive. You have to be assertive without being too aggressive if that makes sense. Ask the breeder (here's hoping she's an honest one) about any skin problems in the parents. Schnauzers are prone to skin problems. Gosh, I'm rambling, but I'm really excited for you and Schnauzers are one of my favorite breeds. Good luck!

By buying pet store puppies, people are only filling the demand to create more. You (figuratively) might "save" that one. However, you've created a demand to replace that one. Now multiply that by the gazillions of other folks creating that demand and it's easy to see how puppy mills stay in business. I feel as sorry as anyone could for puppies in pet stores, but buying them is NOT saving them. It's simply creating a demand for more puppies. Pet store puppies are generally not temperament tested, or health tested any more so than shelter dogs, so you take the same risks re temperament and health either way. It just makes people feel better to be able to justify purchasing pet store puppies by thinking they "rescued" them. There is no reason to think that buying a puppy from a pet store ensures that it will be healthier and more stable tempered than one who is adopted. How I know this? I "rescued" a cute little 10 week old Lhasa Apso puppy from a pet store. A fresh start with a new life. She has been in every kind of social environment, obedience trained and never mistreated in any way. Out of 7 other rescue dogs in my household (coming from shelters, strays, etc.), this dog is now a 4 year old allergy prone menace. Horrible disposition (believe it or not, temperament is inherited and so are allergies), dog aggressive, snappy to strangers and allergic to everything under the sun. I paid $600 to "rescue" her, not to mention the mega $$ I've spent on allergy treatments/special diets, testing and formal training. She was "rescued" from a high profile store that offers "health guarantees" (yeah, right). Just a heads up. Don't be fooled into thinking a pet store "purebred" is any healthier than any other dog whether it be in a shelter, a rescue organization, or a stray from the streets. You'll take your chances either way. I just wish people would at least be honest enough to admit that when they buy these pet store puppies, they bought them because they just flat out wanted them and stop trying to justify it as a "rescue." If there wasn't a demand (by YOU, the consumer) to fill the pet stores with puppies, there would be no need to "rescue" them.

The statement that dogs don't get salmonella and such is false. They can and do. Perhaps not with the frequency as people might, but it's not at all uncommon.