Lokipups Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 I'll jump into the fray for a moment, and I have to go with Jeff on this one :wink: . I've met Cesar on several occasions, years before he ever went "public", and his understanding of canine/pack mentality is more comprehensive than just about every other trainer out there. And yes, the method won't always work on every dog and every disorder they can suffer from, but with certainty I can say it does have a very high success rate. Obedience training and behavior modification are two things that are entirely different, and should be addressed as such. I've seen dogs that could perform on a dime in predictable environments, but can't seem to do the same outside of those parameters, and I've seen dogs who haven't had a lick of training, but are so "owner-centric" that they almost didn't need any. Bottom line, it's not "one size fits dog" when it comes to dogs, you use whatever will work with the animal that's in front of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Kat Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 Angie, let me pose this question then. What is the sense in doing something to a dog if the dog isn't going to learn something by the process? The dog must learn so that he acknowledges that acertain behaviour is/isn't tolerated and when its acceptable to show that behaviour. Its like Jan throwing Kes straight out the door the other day because she was whining. she avoided the situation and didn't teach the dog anything but instead used assertive dominance which did not resolve the situation in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESSlover Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 [quote name='abker17']I read the other thread and in defense of Dr. J I never got the impression that he was being "holier than thou", ESS. I too think he deserves an apology. [/quote] I know. I'm sorry, Jeff. I guess I just know that R2's training methods *do* work, and the way he was putting them down was just pissing me off. She doesnt know all she learned from a book, she has hands on experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 The situation with you and Jan is irrelevant, Jan didnt want to train you or Kes, she just wanted Kes to shut up. :lol: Ok, well the dog is learning but I think whats more important is the owners learning too. With the choke chain Ceasar corrects a dog thats showing bad behaviour. :wink: So the dog is learning whats acceptable and what isnt. A quick jerk and release when the dog isnt focusing on anything other than the task at hand, be it walking, sitting, whatever. With dog-aggressive dogs, he corrects the dog when any aggression is shown. Eventually he can walk the dogs together. Ive done the same thing with a pit bull who was showing aggression towards Duke, the crazy boxer. I brought her to him put her in s it and corrected her with the choke chain when ever she showed signs of aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abker17 Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 [quote name='ESSlover'][quote name='abker17']I read the other thread and in defense of Dr. J I never got the impression that he was being "holier than thou", ESS. I too think he deserves an apology. [/quote] I know. I'm sorry, Jeff.[/quote] Oh ESS, I meant I thought that R2's personal attacks were uncalled for and that deserved an apology from her. That's between them though, just my opinion. :) [quote]I guess I just know that R2's training methods *do* work, and the way he was putting them down was just pissing me off. She doesnt know all she learned from a book, she has hands on experience.[/quote] I understand your frustration, were I in your position I would probably feel the same way. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Kat Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 I'm going to leave this thread now because its too contraversial for my liking, and just say as a final word that I see that trainers have different methods of training. I prefer to use compromise based training that isn't based on force with choke chains or have a heavy hand. To me thats old school training and I'm glad that I was brought up in a dog club that banned choke chains. peace out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjeffrock Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 [quote name='Kat']I'm going to leave this thread now because its too contraversial for my liking, and just say as a final word that I see that trainers have different methods of training. I prefer to use compromise based training that isn't based on force with choke chains or have a heavy hand. To me thats old school training and I'm glad that I was brought up in a dog club that banned choke chains. peace out![/quote] Thats cool, no hard feelings. I dont feel that choke chains would be necessary when training Border Collies either. And I am NOT putting down BC's, cause they are the bomb-diggity. Peace out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 Just a few things I want to toss in here, then I'll be returning to my "under rock" home :) First, I've noticed that several of Cesar's dogs at his compound have on e-collars. Granted, they could be bark collars, but the fact that a dozen other dogs are also barking makes that seem unlikely. The issue I have isn't even with him using the collars for control if that's what he's doing, but that it's never mentioned, and if that is something he's doing, novice pet owners won't even notice. They'll be thinking that with enough assertivness, they can run packs of aggressive dogs, and we all know what that can lead to. Second, I haven't even seen many of the shows, but I've seen at least two occasions where one of his personal dogs got nailed by a dog he was training. During one, he was walking both dogs on lead... who walks a dog aggressive dog with another dog you know they don't like? And why would you risk your own dog being attacked to do so? One more thing... [quote]Ive done the same thing with a pit bull who was showing aggression towards Duke, the crazy boxer. I brought her to him put her in s it and corrected her with the choke chain when ever she showed signs of aggression.[/quote] The problem with doing this is that you're only correcting the signs of aggression, and with a smart dog, they'll just forego those next time and skip right into beating the snot out of the other dog. By the time the dog is showing aggression, you've already missed the best time to correct, and you'll have to correct twice as hard to get their attention, if you can get it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 Kat, I dont see how a choke chain is any different than pinching a dogs ear... but alright. Goo, good post, but e-collars? Ive never noticed. If he does use those, Im def. not happy with that. Can you provide more information about where you got that from? I would walk a dog-aggressive dog next to another dog... unless it was a gamebred APBT. :o :wink: If both dogs are on lead it wouldnt be too hard too keep them apart. I wouldnt call it risking his dog, he knows the situation well enough to know that nothing too bad can happen. I have done the same thing, but not walked them both myself. I wouldnt dare do that on my own. Even if she had lunged to attack, I had her under control... all I had to do was pull her back. It happened before. Once she got over trying, she just ignored him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 You can see the collars on some of his dogs in the show. The eps I saw were between 17 and 22, and I noticed the collars on several different dogs on different eps (even replayed it to be sure). The walking a dog aggressive dog thing, he knew that the dog he was working (I think a rotty?) with hated his GSD, and was walking the two of them together, both on short leads so that they were right next to each other. The dog aggro dog just turned around and snagged the other, nothing he could do to prevent it, and all it takes is one good bite and shake to cause serious tissue damage. It's different when you have one dog and someone else has another, but he was walking both himself. That'd be like me walking Haley and Casey together, and surely if Haley turned around and grabbed Casey, I'd be getting a good lecture about what an idiot I was for trying to walk two dogs that don't get along by myself. Dumb is dumb, no matter who you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotten_two Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 [quote name='ESSlover']I know. I'm sorry, Jeff. I guess I just know that R2's training methods *do* work, and the way he was putting them down was just pissing me off. She doesnt know all she learned from a book, she has hands on experience.[/quote] you are a silly girl ess and thanks for the vote of confidence :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 [quote name='Kat']From what I've wtached of Caesar on National Geographic, I see that he uses pack dynamics which I disagree with as many dogs aren't kept in large enough groups to create a pack. He uses dominant force and fear-based training so that the dog is forced into doing something, with no actual learning along the way. Personally I think hes over-rated.[/quote] I only have two dogs, and I use pack dynamics for training and always have. you have to include the people in the house as pack members too, all of who should rank higher than the dog(s). Pack dynamics using force is wrong in and of itself, because its not truly pack rules. in a real pack, the alpha doesnt punish unless its absolutely necessary. that is generally left to the beta's. the alpha rewards, punishes if necessary, but mostly just leads by example. people who watch wolf documenteries always get impressed by the"fight scenes" that get shown in every one. those fights rarely happen in a well organized pack, and when they do, is mostly just posture. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotten_two Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 ok gonna be sarcastic here again -- fair warning avert your eyes if you are highly sensitive to such . . . so if we use court's explanation then i say drj and i were jockeying for position today. get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abker17 Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 [quote]If both dogs are on lead it wouldnt be too hard too keep them apart.[/quote] :o Are you sure about that? Even dogs that aren't all muscle can show some amazing hidden strength when they want to get to another dog. Abby is (now) passive dog aggressive and I would still never, ever attempt to walk her next to another dog she didn't know, even if they were both on short leads. It's just way too risky. Even if you're using a choke collar or prong, with both hands being utilized to control the dogs it's hard to use those tools correctly and effeciantly. I just really can't fathom anyone being able to do that safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 [quote name='rotten_two']ok gonna be sarcastic here again -- fair warning avert your eyes if you are highly sensitive to such . . . so if we use court's explanation then i say drj and i were jockeying for position today. get it?[/quote] and if you were, the stonger of the two would win. would there be a fight? among equals, possibly. if unequal, the lower in pack ranking would back off, or be punished. however, if both were lower in the pack than alpha and beta, the fight would barely get past posturing before higher ranking members would step in and punish BOTH. not one, BOTH..for having started an unnecessary squabble in the first place. realize that these animals HAVE to get along, they have no choice. if they fight amongst themselves the pack structure will fail and they will ALL die...and they ALL know that. the pack structure, of mutual cooperation, nurturing, and obedience to the pack lead,and the needs of the pack, has kept these creatures alive for millenia. this is why I use pack rules to train my dogs. I dont have to fight with them, they know who's boss, and if they piss me off, all it takes is one stomp and one harsh word, and they go to opposite corners. peace is maintained because I will accept no less. same as a wolf alpha. get over it, or deal with me... I have spoiled my hound. I never had a fearful dog before, and I felt sorry for her. without realizing it, I elevated her above where she should be. the last week she has PO'd me to no end by stealing stuff off the counters, and trashing garbage. I tried to be calm. today, I lost it. there was trash littered all over the house from her ripping up garbage, when I got home. I picked it up, put it in an easily approached bag on the floor, and left the room. therefore catching her in the act, and I let her have it. picked up a big piece of it, and YELLED NO!!!!!! **BAD DOG**** she backed off. I kept yelling, waving the cup in her face. BAD DOG! VERY BAD DOG! until she left the room, and laid down elsewhere. I dont think I ever yelled at her before, and she didnt know how to handle it. I left the garbage there, and watched her. she left it completely alone. avoided walking by it in fact. is she cured? only time, and possibly reinforcement will tell. right now the trash is still in its place. she's laying on the floor by my feet. we will see what tomorrow brings, and if necessary, yes, I will set her up again, until she gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 In reply to Goo anbd Abs, I guess what I was imagining was one dog on each side, not right next to each other. In that case, I agree it wouldnt be too safe for the person or the dogs, but on each side, I could and have handled. As long as the dog gives up after being corrected then I can handle it, but severe aggression *shakes head* I wouldnt put the dogs or myself in that situation, beause like you said Goo, dumb is dumb. When I walk two dogs together like that, (if they happen to catch me off guard) its easier, and safer, to grab them if they have a harness on in addition to the choke chain or prong. Since Straydog has so many dog aggressive dogs, Ive had to learn this technique to make things a bit easier. Although Id prefer to have another person with me when trying to walk (and teach tolerance of other animals to) these dogs, its not always an option. I know I probably have an unpopular opinion with certain methods, but I rely on experience. I know whats worked and what hasnt... which does usually depend on the dog. I do put myself into the dogs place, think like them. I swear I was a wolf in another life. :lol: I believe pack structure is key, like Court has said. Im sure as my experience grows, Ill change my views a bit. I love learning, especially about dogs and their behaviour. At Doggie Kamp, its so easy to observe pack behaviour. I absolutely LOVE watching the dogs interact... challenging each other, showing affection among themselves, etc. It can be hard watching the Omegas get beat on but its part of the pack life. The Alphas dont do much... like Court stated, its mostly the Betas. The Alphas are respected and dont usually start trouble but definitely dont back down when challenged, if they even accept it, which they usually dont. Which is why I believe when a problem arises you ignore it or address it, Ceasar has stated this before also. If you choose to address the issue you cannot let the dog win. Anyhoo, enough talk from me. :oops: :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 I only have to say that I disagree with some of his harsher methods, via choke or physical punishment. I dont find it necessary, and in fact I feel it is not helping. I have broken many a dominant dog, thru pack rules without physical punishment, by simpler things. no beds. I eat first. dogs dont go thru doorways ahead of me. all of these fall into pack ruls without punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjeffrock Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 [quote name='Michele'] I think it is unacceptable to put down RottenTwo (and to hijack Mei-Mei's thread; you know who you are) as to how she trains her dogs or the advice she gives out to others on training issues. It shows a lack of respect and that is not a nice thing.[/quote] Come on out and say my name Michele, there is no need to tip-toe around the tulips. I stand by everything I said. Only thing I said wrong was about R2's training methods AFTER she started dissing Cesar's methods (without going into detail as to why she didnt like him, as well as sarcastically putting me down for having pics of him on my pc.) If R2 was my trainer, and xyz person on forum abc was calling her a boil on the ass of _____, i would stand up and defend her just as quickly as I would Cesar. Then, I merely pointed out that I have personally seen many success stories and that I would stand by his side in the future. Where the fuck do I deserve to be called an egotistical starfucker who throws money at people to know them? I already apologized for knocking her methods, but I NEVER said anything about her personally. I have already said everything I am going to say on that subject, its just a pity when you find out someone's true nature. The best reply R2 could come up with explaining why he is a bad trainer was that flooding 'could' end up making a dog more agressive and teaches it learned helplesness. Yea, and I 'could" get hit by an 18 wheeler everytime I step out of my apartment. As said before, I am over this. I think I did a fine job of bringing up my points, and the only response was "Fine, go throw money at him and try to get closer to Jada and Will Smith." Seems like a pretty weak argument why I shouldnt go to him. If anyone else wants to cry to me about crapping on Mei-Meis thread or R2's training methods, do me a favor and save the whine and cheese for a picnic, or a pm addressed to me. I apologized to Mei-Mei, and as far as R2 is concerned, I apologized for dissin' her methods, and thats it. I cannot believe that any sane person would feel that I was not personally attacked (with sarcasm or not.) I have mentioned celebritiess in certain stories in the past, but to say I have a huge ego and try to get closer to celebs cause thats the kind of person I am is pretty darn rude, no!?!?!? C'mon now, thats pretty wack to jump to a generalization like that. Its no different than me saying R2 hides behind her computer, and has such little self-esteem that she cant even post a picture of herself. Maybe if she had some of my massive ego she would have a tad more self-confidence. Oh, and thats just my brand of sarcasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 Michele, R2 was hijacking the thread just as much as anyone else was. About the personal attacks, I didnt really see any from DrJ... but at least he has the balls to apologize. Its one thing to disagree but quite another to bring in comments about celebrities money etc. and name-call. I respect everyone heres opinion but, sorry, I personally feel that R2 was taking things a bit too serious. I dunno, maybe you just dont understand when you have to draw the line at being sarcastic. I know thats a part of your personality, but I find it rude in these kind of situations. I dont hold a grudge with anyone here... Ive gotten over doing that because its just a waste of time and energy. However, I do loose some respect for a person when they cant even apologize for hurting someones feelings. I love you guys here at Dogo, but geez, so much drama... :roll: :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotten_two Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 [quote] I love you guys here at Dogo, but geez, so much drama...[/quote] cc: for someone who :roll: & :D about the drama you sure are right in the thick of things, huh? moving on . . . this will be my last post in this particular thread as well - feel free keep the fire burning tho. as to the reasons i don't agree with ceasar's training methods well there are many so i will give you my #1 -- his blatant use of aversives. make no mistake aversives usually work and most times they work quickly and that's what i find a lot of people are looking for -- a quick fix. i see what ceasar does as a 'patch' whereas i see what positive trainers try to do as a 'fix.' nobody is without fault. any type of training can go very wrong quickly and yes i certainly agree that each dog, situation, handler, and trainer is different. i do try to adapt my protocol according to the dog/handler/situation but the one thing i will not do is use something aversive to the dog and call it training. i don't wish my dog to be uncomfortable at any time -- always fun i think it should be -- again fun is subjective by dog. he is your pet and your friend hell mine are family why on earth would i jeopardize that relationship? is everyone clear on why r2 does not like the milan method? geez that was a good 10 senctences without sarcasm -- my brain hurts! [quote]as well as sarcastically putting me down for having pics of him on my pc.[/quote] i don't understand why this particular sarcastic 'put down' bugs you when so many that have come before did not?! why so sensitive about this? i know good and damn right well that i am not the only person who finds it peculiar that you have pics of your dog trainer on your pc - but hey to each his own. i don't think i ever called you an egotistical starfucker -- only because until you said it in the other thread i had never heard the term starfucker! i do think i like it and will add it to my vocabulary. quite honestly i do not require your apology for knocking my or any other training methods. i have a little thicker skin than that -- it's not like i am gonna toss my method just cause drj got huffy. all jokes aside i find it sad that a grown assed man could get his delicate feelings hurt on an internet forum. whatever happened to sticks and stones, dude? as for the comments or starfucker (yes i do like this word) implications i made -- me thinks thou doth protest too much. the issue of why i have not posted a pic for your viewing pleasure -- think what you will. i don't really understand your intense interest and frankly it kinda scares me. if you must know my dear, my day job strictly prohibits my talking about the specifics of what i do [b]and[/b] posting pics of myself willy nilly on internet forums (maybe if i did it nilly willy it would be alright?). are you quite satisfied? would you like to talk with my boss -- i am sure he would take it very serious if i walk in and tell him drj needs me to post my picture on the dogo board! hey i understand. you are just too busy living your non-egotistical LA life to consider other possibilities. as for your theory that i am some low self-esteem hermit -- well ess knows me and i believe she might agree i lack a lot of things but self-esteem is not one of them! i am comfortable with who i am and what i believe and i sleep very well at night. oh one last thing off topic -- for someone who is the star AP english student/self-proclaimed grammar guru -- your posts are littered with mistakes. you might freshen up those skills! :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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