hunterr1950 Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 I admit that the “attack” was totally all my fault!! Annie wanted outside around 3:00 a.m. I had left them both out around 11 (their normal time) but stayed up trying to get some book work finished. When I went to bed– Annie was still in the family room sound asleep – so I figured I didn’t need to go though the “hassle”. Anyway, normally I can let both dogs outside together to potty since Hunterr “hates” the cold & will get what he needs done – fast & runs back inside. Annie is a different story – sometimes she refuses to come in without a bribe of a treat. I know I’m reinforcing a “bad habit”! Last night Annie was very stubborn even when I showed her a piece of cheese from the door way. Hunterr was still in the kitchen, so decided to make Annie jealous of giving “her” treat to Hunterr. I was so $%#$ STUPID!! It was so cold outside & I was asleep on my feet & took the easy way out of getting her inside. Got Annie inside & was in the process of putting Hunterr on the other side of the gate (before feeding Annie) when Annie turned on Hunterr by grabbing him behind the neck – refusing to let go. It sounded horrible! I can’t even remember how I got her to release. I panicked! After separating both dogs, I tried to force Annie in a “down” position (one of the books I read) to make her submissive to me. It took both Missy (woke her up also) & me to get her down. Did I do wrong???? What would YOU have done?? Neither dog had any tears, puncher wounds – just a lot of soaked fur on Hunterr’s part. As I said before – being in a small “hick” town in the middle of Ohio I do not have anyone in the area that is willing to work with Annie. All local trainers have never “seen” the Neo breed let alone work with them personally – so they are afraid of the breed. Nor can I find anyone that will analyze Annie’s behavior. HELP!!! Linda, Hunterr & Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotten_two Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 to start you can't afford to be asleep on your feet with annie -- she's huge and deaf! this is like the second "attack" in about a week? you need to go out with them every time they potty. they need to be on leash so that you don't have to play these silly games to get annie inside AND you need to take them out completely separately (crate one and take the other out -- repeat). annie needs some training plain and simple. deaf dogs are different. you are gonna need to be very conscious of her body language. how is hunterr handling himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterr1950 Posted December 2, 2005 Author Share Posted December 2, 2005 Hunterr is fine! He was a “little” shaky after the attack. What I mean – when he gets nervous his back legs will shake. But he “acted” normal otherwise & was happy to the point of running to grab his “Teddy” & wanted me to play with him! I don’t “think” Hunterr was even trying to retaliate in grabbing Annie back. Annie is so quick. There is never any warning such as hair standing, ears changing positions, & her tail is always up in the air!! One minute she acts like she is just standing there (or walking past Hunterr) & the next minute she had a hold of Hunterr’s neck. No – I’ve learned my lesson! This morning I let Hunterr out first, & locked him back in the front room. Then I let Annie outside. I was putting clean water in the “outside” bowl - no matter that I have 4 bowls of water around the house (I change twice a day)– they seem to like the cold outside water better. Ugg!! Hunterr tripped the dead bolt on the gate & opened the slider door up! I now have the gate tied so he can't get it open! Next thing I knew was Hunterr was trying to get Annie to play with him – taking an old toy & shoving it at her to grab. Which Annie ignored. I checked out a few sites for trainers & the only one that showed up was the person that already refuses to help. The closest trainer is 3 hrs away. I’m willing to drive the distance, but refuse to let them “keep” Annie while I’m not around. A friend turned her English over to a trainer that keep her for 3 weeks because of “being untrainable”. The poor baby returned being more aggressive to the point even friends are afraid of entering the house. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrless Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 Hi! Well I have Pyrs and occasionally they get into it. Pyr fights are horrible. And yeah, usually it's because I let my guard down at the wrong time... At any rate, I live in Cleveland, and you should get in contact with Ann Rodgers at Cherrywood Kennels; she breeds Leonbergers and has helped the Pyr rescue group innumerable times. I am not sure of the exact link, but you should be able to find her on a search. Good luck! Is Annie a Neo too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotten_two Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 [quote]Annie is so quick. There is never any warning such as hair standing, ears changing positions, & her tail is always up in the air!! One minute she acts like she is just standing there (or walking past Hunterr) & the next minute she had a hold of Hunterr’s neck.[/quote] i don't agree with never -- the signs are there but in some dogs they are much more subtle and sometimes the time between the 'you wanna piece of me' stare and the lunge is milliseconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 Im not saying with all dogs but I do know that with some, the tail sticking straight up can be a sign of interest or aggression.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrless Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 oooh, yeah, you definitely gotta watch the tail-Sash has got what i call "good wag" and "get the fuck out my way" wag... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 My housedog will kill you with her tail. She wags the damn thing nonstop and if it hits you... OUCH! But, one of the first signs you see when a dog shows interest is the tail going up. I rarely see hair stand up on any of my dogs but their tails will be sticking straight up when they see something they want to get at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotten_two Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 yes unfortunately a waggin tail is not always friendly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 [quote name='rotten_two']yes unfortunately a waggin tail is not always friendly![/quote] Actaully, IMO this is one of the major reasons people get bitten. They see a dog wagging his tail and think since he is, he is friendly and they can pet him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterr1950 Posted December 2, 2005 Author Share Posted December 2, 2005 Thanks ‘pyrless” for the contact! Annie is the Neo & Hunterr a Belgian Malinois. O.K. now I know I can’t even read the body signs of a dog! On Hunterr – his tail would go down & so would his head – a little. Then I knew to “watch him”. On King (another aggressive baby that passed away) his tail would go straight out (sort of like a flag) & his ears would be sort of tilted back. Not flat to the head but maybe about an inch & ½ from being straight up. . With Annie I’m missing any signs that she might be giving out. Her nubby tail is waggy all the time & doesn’t seem to change even when she goes in for an “attack”. The more I read from this site – the more I understand how inexperienced I am with aggressive dogs! I don’t want to put either of them in a position that they could get hurt. I love both my dogs – probably TOO much! Right now – they are all I have to look towards when I return home from work. The training seems very hopeless since I can’t even read Annie’s body language & not doing the “right” things to protect Hunterr & Annie. Thanks everyone for all your suggestions. Sorry, I have a lot to think about. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrless Posted December 2, 2005 Share Posted December 2, 2005 It's okay, it's okay! You are here, you are looking for help, you will be allright. Many large guardian-type dogs are dog-aggressive, and from what I know of the Malinois they are pretty scrappy too. Sasha also will put her head down if she's ready to "go". A great book to read is "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell, she has a great handle on canine body language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotten_two Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 no no don't get discouraged! of course you love them! pyr's contact is a great start! you can always ask questions here and believe me you will get every band of the spectrum in answers :wink: but there's tons of very accountable people here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterr1950 Posted December 3, 2005 Author Share Posted December 3, 2005 Thank you all for your help! I will definitely look for the 2 books that were recommended! Do you think I can find them on the internet? If not I’m going to see my Daughter next week in Columbus & maybe she might know where I can pick them up. I do love both my dogs, but don’t want to do something “stupid” to put either of them in any type of danger. I don’t think I could live with either of them getting hurt because I wasn’t smart enough to “read” the signs or understand what should be done to prevent it from happening. Sorry for being so emotional, but they aren’t “just Dogs”. They are my “babies” & will do anything to protect them. Oh, this is so hard. Thanks Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drgntrnr Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 when you check out books also try "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson and "On talking Terms with your dog" by Turid Rugaas. Every dog is different how they show body language, your dog that has limited hair on its body may not show piloerection on it's back like the B. Malinois, also short tailed dogs have different carriage of the tail. It takes a long time to study different dogs and how they interact. Dogs learn how to act and react when they are puppies, that's what socializing is about, they learn to speak dog, and how to respond to each other. And with a deaf dog she may not have learned all the subtle signals and tones she needs. Now I don't know your dog, so can only guess. But this may be why you don't see the "normal" things you would look for. She still needs to learn your boss tho, and she shouldn't go after the other dog, you don't allow it. Since we can't be there to help all we can do is lend an ear (or I should say eyeballs?). Check out the books, read and let us know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterr1950 Posted December 3, 2005 Author Share Posted December 3, 2005 Yes! You could be right about Annie’s short fur & not “seeing” it standing. With her tail – it’s always wagging & up in the air, kind of curved towards the ceiling? Sometimes when she is in the back yard & sees something she doesn’t like – she will put her tail out like a flag – but it’s not wagging. So stupid me :cry: - thought this was the sign I had to look for “before an attack”! I might have misled everyone in thinking that Annie recently attacked before the “dreadful” night. She hasn’t, it’s been about 2-3 months. But then again I was always on guard & paying attention! I might have mentioned at having a baby gate dividing Hunterr in front room & Annie in the kitchen. Hunterr learned how to open the dead bolt (on the gate) so I ended up tying the opening to the wall so he could open it. Last night when I got home - Both dogs met me at the front door! I am sure it was Hunterr – but he unhinged the gate from the other side. There were no signs of any fights, or any form of destruction. Even the Christmas Tree looked untouched. Thanks for all the help & the list of books I need to read! Linda, Hunterr & Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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