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BuddysMom

Torn on pit bulls (again)

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I have been searching and reading this morning. The best overall web site I've found so far is here:

[url]http://www.pitbulllovers.com/[/url]

Incredibly refreshing.

I also found this one.

[url]http://www.richardfstratton.com/[/url]

Does anyone else think this guy is a baboon's ass? Yet he seems to be on the forefront of "pit bull advocates." This is exactly the kind of shit I am talking about.

The best idea I have found is "Owner Specific Legislation." Now I can't find where I saw it ... :oops: back to google.

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I dont have a problem with Stratton. In fact, Id like to get his books one of these days. Im guessing you dont like the stuff about matches on his site?

Everything I can think of has a road block.
It would be nice if anyone (not non-profits though) with over 20 dogs had to have a home inspection every few months.... but my only problem with that is dogmen would probably have their dogs taken away from them, and I dont want that.
I'd like to see schools having young children taught that animals are their friends and how to properly care for them. If you introduce that at a young age then I think it would help prevent some sick kids from enjoying torturing animals. Schools should invite police dogs and therapy dogs for visits to their campus.
Ive said this before but I REALLY think we need to get petstores and "pet for sale" ads in the paper and internet illegal! I dont think it would be too hard. Honestly, I cant think of any good reasons people could come up with to keep those things legal... can anyone else?

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Guest Anonymous
First off... I didnt "bait" anything. I was responding to what YOU had posted. :roll:
Stratton has good and bad points about him. He is very knowledgable about gamebred APBTs and puts the info out for the general public.
Im curious as to why the problem you chose to point out is with pit bulls instead of dogs in general? Everything you are saying can be pointed at every single dog out there.
Myself and several breeders/owners of gamebred APBTs do fight very hard against BSL as well as fighting to change the BS image so many people, like yourself, have about pit bulls. Some just cant be shown the truth about them. We write our letters, donate our time and money. We fight for the breed we love. Its too bad that doesnt make the news as much as the cur dog down the road biting someone (which most likely isnt a full-blooded APBT anyway). We also fight against the backyard breeding crap. But, again, you dont hear of that becasue that isnt what people want to hear.

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Guest Anonymous
[quote name='BuddysMom'][quote name='Hmmmm']So, now mutts dont bite/maul or kill??
Thats ridiculous.[/quote]

Sure some do, but you said ones like mine. Find me one like mine who has maimed/killed.

In reality that is just a distraction from the main issue, which we will never agree on, which we have been around the block on many times, so we may as well forget it.

But I do appreciate Alan's trying to see my point of view, and everyone who is interested in a solution beyond BYB; one that would work. Like I said I don't know if such a solution exists.[/quote]
I missed this earlier... I would just like to point out that dogs like mine arent the ones biting either. Sure, you can find some pit bulls that bite, but not like mine! So, should myself and my dogs suffer for the actions of an irresponsible owner?? Itd be the same telling you you couldnt have your dog because the mutt down the street bit someone.
that is a very hypocritical way to look at things.

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I am NOT for BSL even though Hmmmm seems to think that I am...
I think BSL is a huge part of the problem! And it is in itself a terrible abuse.

I never meant to start a debate about what breeds are likely to bite or not, and I have said that is NOT the issue, I was just being stupid and defensive as I thought Hmmmm was picking on MY dog on page 1.

I do wish some of you would quit protraying me as a BSL supporter. I think BSL is hideous.

I am singling out pit bulls in this discussion because pit bulls, and their owners, are the victims...

1. victims of BSL
2. victims of media hype
3. victims of overbreeding ("responsible" or not)
4. victims of fighting/matching/whatever you want to call it
5. victims of a thug culture where they are often treated as accessories.

Hmmmm, I know, will take exception to numbers 3 and 4. This is the road we don't need to go down again.

I am just saying it is a crisis situation specifically in regards to pit bulls and looking for ideas on what can be done about it. I do not claim to know. I appreciate all of the ideas so far.

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I want to clarify on my original post.

I regret the "phase out" comment.

My dismay and frustration with the Denver incident was amplified because it was a situation with one unnuetered male and one unspayed female in heat.

Not that the child should have been allowed alone with them anyway, but if all of the dogs had been fixed it very well may not have happened.

Then it got me thinking about all the horrors this particular breed goes through (just ONE of these being BSL) ... and how this incident would only accelerate the spread of BSL throughout my state.

Yes it could have happened with any breed, but because these idiots were BYB-ers, not only might their son die, but they have just made life more miserable for countless more pit bulls and their owners.

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[quote name='Michele']the picture of the black pit doesnt even look like it's all pit........sorry to say, but it looks like part laborador......[/quote]

CS, great post.

Michele, one of the three was reported to be 1/2 chow. That's what I think the black one is.

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Guest Anonymous
you attacked my breed as a WHOLE. I just pointed out that dogs like yours are just as likely.
So why is it everything you say is just fine, but me, Im attacking you? Take a look. You turn shit around on me in every "debate" we end up in about my breed.
Second, I do not overbreed. You apparently dont read a thing I type. I have had ONE litter this year and just so you know that breeding is considered one of the best made by any APBT breeder this year. The fact that I turn down thousands and thousands of dollars in offers should say something for my breeding practices.
Second, i am not some backyard thug fighting dogs. I match my dogs. And regardless of what you think, there is a major difference.

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I feel the same way Hmmmm, that you turn things I say around.

Like, I never said YOU overbreed, and you turned it around as if I had. And IMO I never "attacked" "your breed" but obviously you think so and I'm not going to change your mind about it.

And it is you who keeps portraying me as a BSL supporter.

The "matching" issue we have been around and around on, no one will ever change the other's mind about this either.

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Guest Anonymous
You did attack my breed. You said they should be phased out, whether you regret saying it or not, that is an attack on my breed. Cant say it wasnt!!
And, yeah, I do consider someone that would want to phase out a breed as someone who supports BSL, because thats what it is.
[quote]1. victims of BSL
2. victims of media hype
3. victims of overbreeding ("responsible" or not)
4. victims of fighting/matching/whatever you want to call it
5. victims of a thug culture where they are often treated as accessories.

Hmmmm, I know, will take exception to numbers 3 and 4. This is the road we don't need to go down again. [/quote]
And, yeah, I took this as you saying I overbreed. Looks like it to me.

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[quote name='BuddysMom']If you love these dogs is it worth promoting their "responsible breeding" just so more af them can suffer and be tortured? Would it be not more humane to let them phase out into the pages of history? Can we keep ignoring the legions of pit bull BYBs and torturers?[/quote]

This is what I said. A hypothetical, even rhtorical question thrown out there in the throes of emotion. Not proud of it, but it's not the way you portray it.

The breed as a whole is overbred. It is my opinion that any breeding at this time contributes to the overall problem. That's my opinion. It is not an attack on you personally. You can continue to be pissed off and pretend I have attacked you, but it is just not the case. Why don't you allow me to have my opinion, and I'll allow you the same courtesy.

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Guest Anonymous
Im not stopping you from having your opinion. Couldnt stop it even if I wanted to. And, that statement, rhetorical or whatever is still an insult to my breed. If you didnt notice, I wasnt the only one who took it that way.

Every breed is overbred. But its not the responsible breeders doing it. If we stop the breed would be phased out. The only pit bulls would be the curs bred by bybs and the mutts considered pit bulls.

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[quote name='Hmmmm']But its not the responsible breeders doing it. If we stop the breed would be phased out. The only pit bulls would be the curs bred by bybs and the mutts considered pit bulls.[/quote]

I said people who are producing litters AT THIS TIME. Meaning that I may support a temporary moratorium, such as 1 year, as suggested by others.

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To answer your questions Michele, Yes all breeds are over the top if you look at the number of purebreds in rescue. It does appear to be especially true of pit bulls right now as one of the "dogs de jour" ... people think they are cool so they buy a puppy for the wrong reasons (i.e. as a status symbol) and then have no idea how to take care of it, and it ends up in a shelter or worse.

(YES Hmmmm I know this would never happen to one of your pups)

If BSL would "work" would I go for it? If it stopped all of the dog fighting and torture, baiting, unwanted pit bulls in shelters, took the breed entirely out of the hands of irresponsible, stupid, and/or cruel people, while still allowing responsible owners to have them as pets... then would you support it? But that is just a dream; it never could work. I know that it just increases these problems while punishing the animals and the innocent responsible people.

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Guest Mutts4Me
[quote name='CoalSky']Actually the good people in this case wouldn't be able to own a pit bull if BSL actually worked (to take these dogs out of bad hands). Yeah sure, if you currently own a Pit Bull you'd be able to keep him/her, but I wouldn't be able to get my pit bull if they slapped a BSL for all of BC RIGHT NOW. I wouldn't be able to get my pit bull... and eventually those already owned dogs would die of old age, and no new pit bulls would be allowed in the area, so they would just die out. And the breed would be no longer.

If BSL worked to get the dogs out of bad hands, I don't know if I could support it... because the breed would just die off eventually. :([/quote]

I'm not getting involved in the main discussion, but I do have to point out that I frequently see BSL being equated with a BAN, when all it is, in fact, is Breed Specific [b]Legislation[/b]. Mind you, I agree with neither bans nor BSL, but they are not the same thing... BSL can equal a ban, and a ban is BSL, but BSL is not necessarily a ban. Different legislation works in different ways. One city may rid itself of "bad" breeds entirely, while another may grandfather existing dogs of those breeds. Another city may require certain stanndards to be met before someone can own a certain breed.

That is still BSL, but it is not a ban. In this case, responsible owners with the ability to properly care for a "dangerous" breed of dog could apply for and eventually be allowed to purchase/adopt one. Other examples of BSL not equalling a ban would be restricted breeding on specific breeds, special licensing of specific breeds, the mandated speuter of specific breeds, etc. They would be very difficult to enforce, and they still single out specific breeds, so I still don't care for any kind of BSL, but there certainly are different kinds of BSL>

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I do agree that any dog can bite but I will also point out that a bad Pit Bull is far more dangerous than a bad poodle. I dont realy care who around me has firecrackers. On the other hand, I dont feel safe with just anyone haveing dynomite. I think that there should be some sort of license which owners of the more potentialy dangerous breeds should be required to have. I think in order to obtain the license, potential dog owners should be required to taks classes in basic obedience, dealing with dog agression, dealing with dogs and kids and breakig up a dog fight. Maybe, if everyone was well educated, it would cut down on some of the problems.

There are a lot of things about a Pit Bull (such as their ability to demolish snaps used on a horse) that seem a little far fetched until you have witnessed it.

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[quote]but I do have to point out that I frequently see BSL being equated with a BAN, when all it is, in fact, is Breed Specific Legislation.[/quote]
BUT, when one breed is singled out and labeled as "dangerous" or "vicious", that label has implications beyond those in the imposed legislation. For example, insurance companies aren't going to jump at the chance to insure a dog already labeled as "dangerous", it just isn't smart for them. And when BSL often includes special insurance clauses, and owners can't get the insurance because of the label, you may as well just ban them outright, since you can't get the insurance and can't legally own the dog without it. Or, spay/neuter laws, if you alter all existing dogs and forbid new ones from being brought in, they'll be just as extinct in a few years as if they had been banned outright.

In either case, and in that of outright bans, the problem is still never actually solved, since the person who thinks their human aggressive dog is the best thing ever likely won't care to comply when that dog is illegal or put under restrictions, since after all, they could care less about the dog, so long as their image is intact. And even if they did, the problem would still exist since A. bad owners are a universal problem, and those currently owning pit bulls would simply find another breed to suit their needs, and B. any breed of dog can and will bite, and seriously, and none of these bites should be occurring.

[quote]If it stopped all of the dog fighting and torture, baiting, unwanted pit bulls in shelters, took the breed entirely out of the hands of irresponsible, stupid, and/or cruel people, while still allowing responsible owners to have them as pets... then would you support it?[/quote]
For their own good... the same argument was used in the past for many "lesser groups" of people (mentally challenged people, for example, many of whom function fine these days with certain accomodations made) to be warehoused or otherwise treated in ways that are considered unfair today. By this line of reasoning, we could also lock all children away in a room until they're 18, since child abduction, molestation, etc is a very real concern, it would be for their own good. Instead, we've chosen to address the real problems at hand (people who do these things to children), and educate children of the dangers involved. Considering that many other breeds are just as abused (look at all the small breeds used in puppymills, left to rot in cages all their lives, in sickness and malnutrition), I think that the "for their own good" argument is often (and not in this discussion, in general) just a handy excuse for trying to make a quick fix on a problem... bandaid on a broken arm if you will.

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I will go a step farther and say not everyone should be allowed to own one. I dont encourage people to get a Pit Bull.
First off, there is a difference between a 22 and a 357 magnum. You have to be stong enough to handle a bigger dog.

You must be more mature and more responsible with a dog that has so much power and often times animal agression (even though never encouraged) comes with the package. This breed is loyal and although it goes against their nature to be people agressive, they will kill babies all day, if that is what you train them to do. Also, unless you live way out in the sticks, you cant just turn this breed loose. Doing so could result in the death of a neighbors pet.

You cant be afraid to break up a dog fight. If you own a Pit Bull, you never know when you may be in the middle of a dog fight. You better know what to do and how to do it!

I know I painted an ugly picture but when I bred and sold puppies, I wanted people to hope for the best but be prepared for the worst.

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If you think about it aren't the laws against dog fighting BSL? Because what percentage of all the dogs fought are not pit bulls? I know there are some but I bet it's less than 1 percent.

It's weird but I bet there would be people here lamenting that they couldn't buy a puppy from Hmmmm if laws against fighting were enforced 100 percent.

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Im still kind of afraid of breaking up dog fights. :oops: I always grab the back legs and then the neck hide, but Im so scared that dog is gonna turn around and bite me. :oops: At Doggie Kamp the two male Great Pyrs fight through the fence and the one starts stuff with other dogs. :roll: I grabbed him and sat on his back until he calmed down. :lol: hes definietly the Alpha dog around there.

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[quote name='Michele'][quote name='BuddysMom']If you think about it aren't the laws against dog fighting BSL? Because what percentage of all the dogs fought are not pit bulls? I know there are some but I bet it's less than 1 percent.

It's weird but I bet there would be people here lamenting that they couldn't buy a puppy from Hmmmm if laws against fighting were enforced 100 percent.[/quote]

BM: Hmmmm DOESNT FIGHT HER DOGS......I need a smoke[/quote]

What? Where've you been?

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