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Torn on pit bulls (again)


BuddysMom

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If you think about it aren't the laws against dog fighting BSL? Because what percentage of all the dogs fought are not pit bulls? I know there are some but I bet it's less than 1 percent.

It's weird but I bet there would be people here lamenting that they couldn't buy a puppy from Hmmmm if laws against fighting were enforced 100 percent.

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Im still kind of afraid of breaking up dog fights. :oops: I always grab the back legs and then the neck hide, but Im so scared that dog is gonna turn around and bite me. :oops: At Doggie Kamp the two male Great Pyrs fight through the fence and the one starts stuff with other dogs. :roll: I grabbed him and sat on his back until he calmed down. :lol: hes definietly the Alpha dog around there.

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[quote name='Michele'][quote name='BuddysMom']If you think about it aren't the laws against dog fighting BSL? Because what percentage of all the dogs fought are not pit bulls? I know there are some but I bet it's less than 1 percent.

It's weird but I bet there would be people here lamenting that they couldn't buy a puppy from Hmmmm if laws against fighting were enforced 100 percent.[/quote]

BM: Hmmmm DOESNT FIGHT HER DOGS......I need a smoke[/quote]

What? Where've you been?

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[quote name='Michele'][quote]It's weird but I bet there would be people here lamenting that they couldn't buy a puppy from Hmmmm if laws against fighting were enforced 100 percent.
[/quote]


I wouldnt be lamenting over it, because it doesnt apply to Hmmmm.[/quote]

Oh these "matches" are within current law? Not being sarcastic, I'm just very surprised if that's the case. Can I find them on ESPN 3 or something? (OK maybe I'm being a little sarcastic).

Edited to add: I'm not saying her pups aren't super fine. They are! But it's beside the point.

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[quote name='Michele']BM: I'm not picking a fight with you, ok?..I"m debating you... :D ..You had said earlier in this thread you want to write letters......Understand, please, that any breed of dog that is trained to fight, will fight. WE made them like that. This is what you must focus on if you are serious about letting people know HOW and WHY dogs end up like this.....[/quote]

I'm not picking a fight with you either. (Why would I want to fight with The Marshall? :lol: )

But there obviously is a split within the whole dog loving community, not just DOGO, about whether matching is fighting, whether it is necessary for the continuation of the breed; whether, as an important part of the breed's history it should be given a nod or condemned.

I am with the crowd that says matching is fighting, it is despicable and unnecessary and a very lamentable part of the breed's history; that the breed has wonderful purpose beyond it's original reson for being, like many other breeds. I have to find this link that expresses just how I feel, and I will post it.

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I don't get the question Michele. How does that post say I want to wipe out the breed?

Here is the link I like:

[url]http://www.pitbulllovers.com/pitbull-articles/fighting-pit-bull-dog-fighting.html[/url]

Fighting Pit Bull - Dog Fighting and the American Pit Bull Terrier

By Jason Mann

While some people run like they just saw Godzilla stomping down main street when they are confronted with the past of their dogs it is true the American Pit Bull Terrier was (and still is) bred for dog fighting.

It's also true they were fighting animals like:

Bears


Boar


Badgers


Donkeys


Lions


Tigers
...long before they were fought with other Pit Bulls

One common mistake most historians make when talking about the history of these dogs is they assume dog fighting started after Bull baiting was banned. This is not the case. Dog fighting was around while Bull baiting was in it's hay day.

Another fact that is rarely mentioned is when Bull baiting was outlawed the act of dog fighting was also illegal but authorities didn't enforce the laws that often.

Dog Fights were Easier to Operate for the Poor

Hosting a Bull baiting took money, time and resources poor people in England didn't have.

Dog fighting was easier for them to operate and profit from.

Probably because the police were profiting from the dog fights as well. That is not a known fact but since they were allowed to operate something must have been going on under the table.

Poor folks learned quickly that dog fighting could put some extra bread on their tables. Not to mention some pretty coins for their pockets.

Irish and English dog fighters of the early 19th century held great pride in producing top quality bulldogs that not only took down the Bulls, but dispatched their kin with equal violence.

Dog Fighting is Useless

When I get into debates with "dog men" and "dog women" they always say, "This is what they are bred for, if you don't do it, you are ruining the breed!"

To this feeble argument I say, "Wake up!"

There have been countless other breeds that were bred for a specific task that did so well at another task they started breeding them for that purpose instead.

German Shepherds are a perfect example of this trend.

Most people do not even realize that German Shepherds are herding dogs that showed signs of good protection dogs.

Now German Shepherds are known more for their ability to work as Police dogs than herding.

You see the argument that Pit Bulls were bred for fighting and anything less is ruining the breed is their pathetic way of holding on to a barbaric act that time has long needed to forget but these people cling to it like a baby to their bottle when they are hungry for their mothers milk.

Why?

Dog Fighters NEED Violence to Boost their Pride and Wallets

I know I'm going to take a lot of heat from the dog fighting community for that comment. I don't really give two shakes and a penny.

What other reason is there to fight dogs?

Dog fighter's can talk until they are blue in the face but they can never give you a useful reason for dog fighting. Not one single reason exists. Never did!

I have no doubt some Pit Bulls love to fight. I mean, after all, I don't disagree it is what they were bred to do.

However, simply because back when our country was new and forming people fought dogs, doesn't make it right. Didn't make it right then and sure doesn't now.

Fighting Pit Bulls for money, pride, ego, or game testing them has no place in our society anymore.

Pit Bulls are Great Dogs and Greatness should be rewarded with Love, Praise and Compassion. Not Death, Scars, Pain and Blood.

I admire Pit Bulls that fight. I won't lie to you. I do. Why?

Because these dogs have shown they can take the abuse people place on them and still lick your face when it's all said and done.

I don't admire the fighting. I admire their soundness, courage, and undying loyalty. Even to if that loyalty is not returned in kind.

On that same token, I do not support fighting, care for fighting, and if I had my way those who participate in dog fighting would be forced to suffer the exact same fate their dogs do.

To put it lightly, I hate dog fighting.

Pit Bulls and Dog Fighting Summary

As you might have noticed I'm a bit passionate about this subject. :o)

Writing this article took forever because I had to keep going back and editing where I went a bit nutty.

We can stop it. We have to make our voices heard and convince law makers to make dog fighting laws even tougher.

Stiff jail times would be a nice start.

Write you local government, get out there and talk with representives in your area, and talk with Law Enforcement and get their views on the subject.

In short, make some noise!

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[quote name='Michele'][quote name='BuddysMom'][quote name='Michele']BM: I'm not picking a fight with you, ok?..I"m debating you... :D ..You had said earlier in this thread you want to write letters......Understand, please, that any breed of dog that is trained to fight, will fight. WE made them like that. This is what you must focus on if you are serious about letting people know HOW and WHY dogs end up like this.....[/quote]

I'm not picking a fight with you either. (Why would I want to fight with The Marshall? :lol: )

But there obviously is a split within the whole dog loving community, not just DOGO, about whether matching is fighting, whether it is necessary for the continuation of the breed; whether, as an important part of the breed's history it should be given a nod or condemned.

I am with the crowd that says matching is fighting, it is despicable and unnecessary and a very lamentable part of the breed's history; that the breed has wonderful purpose beyond it's original reson for being, like many other breeds. I have to find this link that expresses just how I feel, and I will post it.[/quote]


Why would you want to wipe out a breed because of human selfishness and greed?[/quote]

OH now I see where you got this idea. Correction to "But there obviously is a split within the whole dog loving community, not just DOGO, about whether matching is fighting, whether it is necessary for the continuation of the breed;" ... I meant whether "fighting / matching" is necessary for the continuation of the breed.

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[quote name='Michele'][quote]If you love these dogs is it worth promoting their "responsible breeding" just so more af them can suffer and be tortured? Would it be not more humane to let them phase out into the pages of history? Can we keep ignoring the legions of pit bull BYBs and torturers?
[/quote]


did you say this?....do you honestly think it would be more humane to phase them out?[/quote]

I said it, I said it was out of emotion and intended to spark discussion, I said I regretted it.

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BM, honestly youre right, there are a lot of people who fit the discription in that article. A lot of dogmen are into drugs and I do believe theyre more in the sport for the money and pride of winning a match. I do also think the game is getting more about breeding for more mouth and ability in a dog instead of gameness and it pisses me off to no end. BUT you need to understand that there are a few good, and even great, dogmen/women who are doing things right. I believe Hmmmm is one of those people.

[quote]Dog fighter's can talk until they are blue in the face but they can never give you a useful reason for dog fighting. Not one single reason exists. Never did!
[/quote]
:roll: Its stuff like this that really makes me want to smack someone...
Matching dogs is testing whether that dog will cur out and if it does, its not worth breeding because thats what the breed is all about: gameness. IMO, matching also can give you a better idea of whether or not that dog will bite a human, in which case, you dont breed the dog. theyre doing society a favor by doing this... unlike the idiots who fight for entertainment, pride, and money.

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[quote name='__crazy_canine__']BM, honestly youre right, there are a lot of people who fit the discription in that article. A lot of dogmen are into drugs and I do believe theyre more in the sport for the money and pride of winning a match. I do also think the game is getting more about breeding for more mouth and ability in a dog instead of gameness and it pisses me off to no end. BUT you need to understand that there are a few good, and even great, dogmen/women who are doing things right. I believe Hmmmm is one of those people.

[quote]Dog fighter's can talk until they are blue in the face but they can never give you a useful reason for dog fighting. Not one single reason exists. Never did!
[/quote]
:roll: Its stuff like this that really makes me want to smack someone...
Matching dogs is testing whether that dog will cur out and if it does, its not worth breeding because thats what the breed is all about: gameness. IMO, matching also can give you a better idea of whether or not that dog will bite a human, in which case, you dont breed the dog. theyre doing society a favor by doing this... unlike the idiots who fight for entertainment, pride, and money.[/quote]

I know that you and Hmmmm and probably many others here do sincerely believe this, and I understand the logic and respect your opinion, but I absolutely 100 percent disagree with it. This is the split amongst dog lovers that I am talking about.

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[quote name='Michele']ok..BM.....here's my final thought........I"m totally against BSL....what i'm trying to say is this:...you want to let your voice be heard....well, your focus must not be the breed...it must be the humans who MADE the breed the way they are ...I've always been against dog fighting...i can see the difference between matching and fighting....i dont applaud matching..BUT i see there's a big difference...[/quote]

OK, good final word. Now *I* am going to have a smoke. :wink:

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[quote name='Michele']I respect your view on this BM..i really do.....but if you want "sound" pits...isnt this the way to do it???[/quote]

Many pit bull advocates who are much more knowledgable then me say there are other ways. Why don't you pose this question to Jason Mann (author of the article I posted above?) at pitbulllovers.com ...

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"][quote]Matching dogs is testing whether that dog will cur out and if it does, its not worth breeding because thats what the breed is all about: gameness. IMO, matching also can give you a better idea of whether or not that dog will bite a human, in which case, you dont breed the dog. theyre doing society a favor by doing this... unlike the idiots who fight for entertainment, pride, and money.
[/quote]
Some of this is true, and some of this is just regurgitated information.
Do you honestly think that the majority of APBT breeders (responsible AND irresponsible) decide not to breed their dogs after they cur out due to the fact that someone might get bitten? I highly doubt it. They wouldnt breed the dog because it has no game.
Far too often, the assumption is made that just cause a dog has game, it wont bite a human. Yes, a dog with game can be an absolutely wonderful pet.
But, I want to see your average dogomaniac try to break up a dogfight between two game APBT's. I am sure a bunch of you would get the shiny bitten out of your arms. I am not saying that I have been involved with dog-fighting, because I have not. Hmmmmm I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Would you agree that the argument everyone makes about a "well-tempered, game" APBT never biting is somewhat over-exaggerated? I mean a well-bred Akita isnt a man-biter, as is the case with most other breeds, right?
Honestly, I feel terrible about the future of the APBT. I see so many freaking bad apples out here, its nuts. Human-aggressive APBTs roaming around Hollywood are a dime a dozen.

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Guest Anonymous

First, matches have rules, fights dont. Kinda like a street fight vs. a boxing match. The street fight is just two people going at it while the match was contracted for a certain date, time, weight.... The dogs are brought into a match in top condition. Dogs used in fighting are usually forced into fighting while dogs in matches want to be there.
Dr. Jeff... I think any dog can bite, regardless. I do believe though, that a well bred, gamebred APBT is less likely. I believe this really just from my own experience with the breed. I have broken two dogs apart too many times to count and havent ever even gotten a scrath. Of course, I know the proper way to do it and I would never suggest anyone attempt to break one if they dont properly know how to do it. I have had APBTs for a lot of years and never had one even attempt to bite me. I wouldnt breed a double grand champion if he had bitten someone and any pups off that dog would be culled. I know there are people out there breeding every pit bull they can get their hands on. This isnt the case for any real dogman in it for the breed.
[quote]Um, okay, again, I am clearly no expert on this breed but I think i read somewhere (on dogo maybe) that a proper APBT is supposed to be dog-aggressive but submissive to people?[/quote]
No, APBTs are bred for gameness, not dog aggression.
[quote]Slightly OT, but while all you guys are talking pits...
Does anyone know how they got to be the dog of choice for the thug type guys in the first place?[/quote]
Because the media made them out to be vicious, tough, man killing dogs. It was the rottie before the pit. I remember all the stories they put on the news about how evil rotties are... :roll:

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[quote name='drjeffrock']"][quote]Matching dogs is testing whether that dog will cur out and if it does, its not worth breeding because thats what the breed is all about: gameness. IMO, matching also can give you a better idea of whether or not that dog will bite a human, in which case, you dont breed the dog. theyre doing society a favor by doing this... unlike the idiots who fight for entertainment, pride, and money.
[/quote]
Some of this is true, and some of this is just regurgitated information.
Do you honestly think that the majority of APBT breeders (responsible AND irresponsible) decide not to breed their dogs after they cur out due to the fact that someone might get bitten? I highly doubt it. They wouldnt breed the dog because it has no game.
Far too often, the assumption is made that just cause a dog has game, it wont bite a human. Yes, a dog with game can be an absolutely wonderful pet.
But, I want to see your average dogomaniac try to break up a dogfight between two game APBT's. I am sure a bunch of you would get the shiny bitten out of your arms. I am not saying that I have been involved with dog-fighting, because I have not. Hmmmmm I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Would you agree that the argument everyone makes about a "well-tempered, game" APBT never biting is somewhat over-exaggerated? I mean a well-bred Akita isnt a man-biter, as is the case with most other breeds, right?
Honestly, I feel terrible about the future of the APBT. I see so many freaking bad apples out here, its nuts. Human-aggressive APBTs roaming around Hollywood are a dime a dozen.[/quote]

I didnt say that gameness means a dog isnt a man-biter. I said both gameness [i]and[/i] human aggression can be proven in the ring, but I meant as two seperate things, not one in the same. :wink:

But the more I think about it, I take back what I said about the dog biting and not breeding it. Hmmmm has said before (Chinamin being the example) that in such a case its re-directed aggression. Though, I find it unacceptable, those kind of dogs are still bred. IMO, re-directed aggression is aggression towards a human nonetheless and thats not the kind of genes I would want to be passing on... but again thats JMHO.

[quote]
[quote]Slightly OT, but while all you guys are talking pits...
Does anyone know how they got to be the dog of choice for the thug type guys in the first place?[/quote]
Because the media made them out to be vicious, tough, man killing dogs. It was the rottie before the pit. I remember all the stories they put on the news about how evil rotties are... :roll:
[/quote]
To add onto this, pit bulls are VERY loyal and once they found that out, they took advantage of it.

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