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food/attention agressiveness


Abbie's Mom

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I have a wonderful 8 mo. Old shih tzu. She is a great dog. She’s very gentle and listens very well. She was actually very easy to house train. My problem is this: she is showing signs of food aggressiveness towards our other dogs. She has actually snapped at our lab when getting treats. Also, some “attention” problems. If I am holding my sister’s Chihuahua/Yorkie mix, she seems to send her vibes, like, “get off my mom” although she hasn’t snapped at her, she is on her toes and watching her the whole time. How to I break her of this before it gets to far? Any help would be appreciated.

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At 8 months she is heading into adolescence, which is the same as with humans, dogs get ornery and pissy and do stuff they wouldn't normally do! However if she is guardy over food I would make sure everyone is fed and given treats separately, in crates or at least where they can't see each other, to avoid a fight. In the meantime, enforce Nothing In Life Is Free with her (NILIF), she must sit before eating, getting petted, going out. It reinforces your own alpha status.
I don't know about other dog, but most definitely reprimand ANY sign of aggression firmly and consistently. (NO!) usually does it.
Good Luck! Did you post pics?

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first of all i prefer the use of 'training' over 'breaking.' secondly it sounds like your dog is displaying some pretty normal canine behavior that happens to not be acceptable to humans so you need to manage those behaviors better. the behavior you are calling 'food/people aggression' is more commonly referred to as resource guarding.

let's flip it and think about what you do want. you want your pup to be accepting of dogs and others around food and treats. great what have you done to help her reach this goal? you also want her to be more relaxed when you pay attention to others. fine it's doable.

i will tell you that while you are training her your best bet is management. manage treat/food situations by not letting the other dogs get in her face around food. feed in separate rooms, ask her to go to her bed when you want to treat her, and keep the other dogs away. if you are going to pet another dog and you see signs of stress or arousal do the pup a favor and put her in her crate with a fat kong to keep her busy or pet the other dog elsewhere.

in the meantime pick up a copy of the book 'Mine!' by jean donaldson and live it! it has a very structured set of steps when dealing with resource guarding.

alot of people are gonna shout NILIF from the moutain tops and yes that certainly will help but you need to do a little more than that. you don't want to let this get out of hand so that one day you have a snapping snarling ball of fluff.

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I'm afraid that separating dogs who live together during feeding and other activities will only make things worse. It's true, that an 8-month old shi tzu is an adolescent and that's why she's now trying to build her position within your family pack. It's true you should correct her in some way to enforce your alpha position, but not by separation or sending her away. If you're keen to know how dogs really communicate among themselves and if you want your shi tzu to really understand you, try this website [url]http://psiskolafalco.web3.cz/index_en.htm[/url]
I sincerely recommend! :-)

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Good advice, Pyr and R2!

When I adopted Maya, they said that she was food aggressive. So right from the start (she was 1-1/2), I fed Maya and Jackie at opposite ends of the room, with me in the middle. It didn't take long at all before Maya respected Jackie's area. Now that I have 3 dogs, Maya's and Jackie's bowls are each at separate ends of the kitchen and Pooh Bear eats at the front door. Jackie eats slowest, so when Pooh Bear and Maya are done, they come over to me and sit down, waiting for Jackie to finish. There are never any fights or incidences over food because they've learned the proper behavior.

Good luck with your puppy!

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[quote name='drakka']I'm afraid that separating dogs who live together during feeding and other activities will only make things worse. It's true, that an 8-month old shi tzu is an adolescent and that's why she's now trying to build her position within your family pack. It's true you should correct her in some way to enforce your alpha position, but not by separation or sending her away. If you're keen to know how dogs really communicate among themselves and if you want your shi tzu to really understand you, try this website [url]http://psiskolafalco.web3.cz/index_en.htm[/url]
I sincerely recommend! :-)[/quote]

I'm no trainer, but I couldn't disagree more strongly. I don't understand why separation is a bad thing. With eleven dogs in my household, you can bet they don't all eat together.

I even checked out the website you posted, and maybe I'm just not understanding it.
[quote]"... bring up your dog as if you were a dog yourself, not a human. And judge all his reactions again through the dog’s eyes, since the dog perceives and evaluates his environment and experiences in different way than human – because he’s a dog. The basis is the PACK and the pack rules – hierarchy, protection of the young ones who act as young ones and the warning signals (growl, pressing of teeth, bite) towards all who do not obey the pack rules. It’s not about dogs ruling over our lives. However, these are the canines we keep, no matter how well domesticated, but still canines – and as long as we bring them up in their own environment and by their own language it is good. If we try to subject them continuously in the human way, we are cutting the branch under ourselves. We are not the dog masters – it is just them who is willing to live by our side. They are not forcing their presence on us and they are able to survive without us. They can live either WITH US or NEXT TO US. We can make one pack or live separate lives. It is up to each person which one to choose – the decision is clear to the dogs.”

[/quote]

First of all, bring up the dog as if I'm a dog, myself? Now, I can understand and respect pack rules and all that good stuff, but I'm NOT a dog, and my dogs are smart enough to know that. I don't expect them to behave like fuzzy little humans, and they don't expect me to act like a dog. It works for us.

Maybe I'm just totally misunderstanding the logic behind that whole post. I'm not attacking. I'm just saying I don't agree with the idea that humans need to act like dogs to raise them. I'm open-minded, though, and willing to hear an explanation of the logic behind it. Maybe I over-simplify, but I'm willing to respect my dogs as dogs, and I like that they respect me as a human.

Back on topic, I agree with separating food aggressive dogs.

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horsefeathers:

The logic is following-if I want to talk to Chinese and I know they have only limited ability (a very limited ability) to talk my language,while for me, Chinese isn't nearly as difficult, what do you think my choice will be? Yes, we can teach dogs understand some of our words, they will certainly be able to read our emotions, but they will always respond best to what's natural for them - their own language. If you've ever heard about Monty Roberts or Pat Parelli and what they do with horses, this is that kind of stuff but with dogs. Even though dogs have lived with us for thousands of years, they're still not like us - and our methods of communication are still quite different.

Back to the problem - first, I wouldn't call an eight-month old dog aggressive just because it snaps on a fellow dog. Second, if I want to have one pack with all the dogs in and not two or more separate pack living under my roof, I cannot separate dogs during such an important activity as feeding or giving treats. This is something that would never ever happen in a natural pack. What I should do is correct the dog properly (in case of feeding) or give the treat first to the more dominant dog (may as well be the shi tzu) and then to the less dominant dog (in case of the treats - different from feeding!). If I respect natural hierarchy within the pack, there shouldn't be any problems with feeding or treat-giving.

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I do understand, then. I just still disagree... some.

I think sometimes we "natural" things just a little too much. I would reckon that in nature, in a pack of dogs feeding together, those dogs collectively killed the prey they are sharing, or at least scavenged it, running off other predators. Either way, that requires teamwork. The act of simply eating doesn't, so I still don't understand why domestic dogs "need" to eat together.

I think nature evolves. What was natural generations ago isn't necessarily natural now. I think sometimes in the effort to be "all natural," people tend to back-track. Still, I believe in doing whatever works. Separating mine at feeding time works for us. We don't have several established different packs as a result. They are collectively one big pack... one big pack that just doesn't eat together for various reasons (monitoring food intake for each individual dog, preventing gorging in an effort to beat out other dogs, not just aggression). I can agree, to an extent, on using language a dog can understand, but I just don't know that I'd go so far as "bring up your dog as if you were a dog yourself, not a human." Maybe I'm just too comfortable with that boundary.

I do agree with the idea of respecting the top dog as the top dog, but only to a certain degree.

Please don't interpret anything I'm saying as knocking your methods. If it works for you, I'll all for it since I'm all about results and don't believe in one size fits all. I will just continue to feed mine separately, and advocate it in certain situations.

Thanks for anwsering my questions. :)

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[quote]It's true you should correct her in some way to enforce your alpha position[/quote]


this is the biggest load of horse apples i have heard today! correct her? how exactly? i mean she is already gonna be in a state of arousal guarding her food so why not increase that stress by punishing her? you will only make things worse. separating dogs while they eat is NOT a bad thing and if it manages her resource guarding by not letting her do it then GREAT that's what we want! compassionate leadership people you don't need the iron fist!

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[quote name='rotten_two'] compassionate leadership people you don't need the iron fist![/quote]

I could not agree with that statement more. I wholeheartedly agree. In the last few years, I've gone from ruling with an iron fist, being that almighty alpha presence, but I've evolved into more of a benevolent leader. It seems to work better in our house. I like my dogs to respect me, but don't want them to feel they have to fear me. That's just me, though. Again, I'm not a trainer. I only have my own to work with. I'm not as crazy about the idea of dominating dogs for the sake of canine social status as I used to be. I'm actually kind of ashamed to admit it. :oops:

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Horsefeathers: being an alpha is not about having your dogs fear you. It's about the relationship with them, about their respect towards you...and I don't need to have my dogs perform fifty tricks to gain that respect. This is no way a mechanical thing, it doesn't depend on how many times they do 'sit' or 'down'. I'm not opposing in that we are often 'overnaturalizing' things, but in this particular case it serves its purpose very very much. We all have different goals with our dogs, mine is to have good companions who will obey me not because they're robots or because they know they'll get a treat afterwards, but because they want to, because they trust me and they trust my judgement.
The link I put here belongs to a guy who is able to communicate with any dog just using his eyes and hand gestures and a few words. The dogs will follow him, away from their owners... I have a comparison with the 'classical' methods and this really suits me much better. But if you have any more questions, I suggest you send this guy an email, I'm sure he'll reply and explain everything into much more detail.

Rotten_two: I have to admit it's hard to judge the situation from that brief description. I read the question once more and I realized there was really nothing about feeding, but about treats. That's a huge difference. I really suppose everything may settle down if Abbie's mom starts giving the treats first to her shi-tzu and then to the labrador. I don't really see it as a sign of food aggressiveness...

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