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Private Ownerships of Wolves

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[quote name='Millie']Well, here we go again! "mauling" "attack" "murder" "vicious" "dangerous" "wild" are all sensational words that are used in the media to sell newspapers. Which paper would you think that the average Joe-Smoe would buy?
Headline - "Attack wild tiger mauls owner to death"
or
Headline - "Pet tiger carries owner to safety while suffering mild stroke"
or
Headline - "Attack dogs on the loose - get your guns ready!"
or
Headline - "Pet dog escapes owner"
The news media are quite well known for printing exaggeration and untruths. If we can say that the media, is printing "untruths" about our dog breeds, then how can we not say they are doing the same, for exotic animals?
As far as Siefried and Roy, Monteco sensed something was not right with Roy. Roy had not been feeling well, and knew he should not have been performing. Roy spent the night before partying for his birthday, and suffered a mild stroke. (at the time he did not realize this). When they entered the staging area, it was routine that Monteco would stay to Roy's right side. After a few steps onto the stage, Roy (who was not feeling well), staggered which caused him to miss a step. Monteco who loves Roy, sensed something was not right, grabbed him like a mother tiger would, and dragged him off stage. The problem was, that tigers do not realize their own strength compared to a human's frail body. So Monteco, severly injured Roy in the process.
It was not Monteco's intent, to "kill", to "maul", "to attack" Roy.

[quote name='Michele']I've read through this thread and IMO, I can really relate to what Sejun is saying but...take for example...remember Sigman and Froyd (spelling) the two guys that did shows with their tigers....now, these animals were raised from babies.....but they are still wild. Look what their hand raised tigers did. They mauled one of them, almost killing him. I am really torn about this topic. Bottom line, no matter how experienced you are in owning a wild animal, I think they belong in the wild.[/quote][/quote]
I think you just proved the point you were trying to fight. I dont think people are going to be more supportive of owning wild animals such as tigers if you tell them that Roy got maimed by a tiger that thought he was helping him.
Are there some competent, intelligent people out there who can handle having wild animals as pets? Sure there are.
Are there flakes out there who think they can raise, train and properly care for a tiger (or wolf, etc.) only to find out they were sorely mistaken? Absolutely.

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[quote name='Jessashelony'][quote]So Monteco, severly injured Roy in the process.
It was not Monteco's intent, to "kill", to "maul", "to attack" Roy.
[/quote]

Exactly. It was not his intent. But it happened anyway. So in other words, no matter how well you treat a wild animal, no matter how much that wild animal loves you, you are still in danger when handling wild animals.

Thanks for making our case.[/quote]
Quoted for truth.

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So since it happened anyway, as you are perceiving, makes Monteco a "wild" animal? I am definitely not making your case. But I am definitely defending Monteco for his actions. Monteco is not wild, he is an exotic feline. He was born and raised here in the states, with human companionship. I am more afraid of a feral cat, then I am of a tiger.



[quote name='"Jessashelony"'][quote]So Monteco, severly injured Roy in the process.
It was not Monteco's intent, to "kill", to "maul", "to attack" Roy.
[/quote]

Exactly. It was not his intent. But it happened anyway. So in other words, no matter how well you treat a wild animal, no matter how much that wild animal loves you, you are still in danger when handling wild animals.

Thanks for making our case.[/quote]

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you are wrong, you are definitely wrong. Why do I know you are wrong in your assumptions? I am an owner of big cats.

[quote name='"Michele"'][quote name='"Millie"']Are we confusing the two words, "wild" and "exotic"? Domestic born and raised tigers are exotic, not wild. There is no "wild" areas for them to reside in anymore due to human encroachment. U.S. Tigers and other exotic felines, are bred and raised here in the states. Their "wild" instincts have changed, they would not be able to survive in the wild because they are now dependent upon humans for survival. Did you recently see the cheetah story on Animal Planet? Where two cheetah cubs, were raised by a human and the human released them into the wild. The one cheetah brother, did not know any better that Lions kill cheetahs, so he tormented the lions, until one male lion killed him. They also went after bigger game then the "wild" cheetah would naturally. Their instincts of being wild were almost gone. So you can not take a lion, tiger, cheetah, etc, that was bred domestically and return them to the wild, thinkig they are going to survive. Scientists, Rehabbers, Zoologists, have proven this as a fact and not fiction.


[quote name='"Michele"']I've read through this thread and IMO, I can really relate to what Sejun is saying but...take for example...remember Sigman and Froyd (spelling) the two guys that did shows with their tigers....now, these animals were raised from babies.....but they are still wild. Look what their hand raised tigers did. They mauled one of them, almost killing him. I am really torn about this topic. Bottom line, no matter how experienced you are in owning a wild animal, I think they belong in the wild.[/quote][/quote]


I'm talking about WILD animals. Wild animals that are raised as babies by humans....they are still wild and will do what their instincts tell them to do no matter what.[/quote]

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[quote name='Seijun']
Like I said, people own them because they like them. This can be PROVEN. How do you PROVE that all wild animal pets "belong" in the wild?
[/quote]

This is in my opinion not a valid reason to keep wolves as pets. And there are NO wild animal pets. There are wild animals, period. And wild animals belong in the wild where they can support themselves.

[quote name='Seijun']
Define a "place suitable for a dog." RESPONSIBLE wolf owners have large escape proof enclosures for their wolves. The wolves can run, play, and enjoy life. They may have been made for the wild, but they can still be happy in captivity if cared for properly. (Chaining and putting a wolf in a house or isolated kennel does not fall under the header of "properly").
If you are born to Eskimos, who have lived for thousands of years in colder northern regions, being sculpted to fit the land, does that mean that you could not enjoy living in Florida?
[/quote]

First: run, play and enjoy life? I do not pretend to be a wolf specialist, but since you are so keen on proof, how do you prove that your wolf is happy, when he has the possibility to run and play? In my opinion, it takes a lot more for a wolf to feel 'at home'.

Second: There are many animals not made for other climates. I would not think, an ice bear would really be happy in Florida. Human are probably more adaptable, since this is the only defense we have from nature.

[quote name='Seijun']Are you implying that if there are more bad owners than good ones, that this justifies abolishment of all ownership? Check my first post. I specifically mentioned that there is no way to tell if there are more bad wolf/wolf hybrid owners than good ones. For all we know, the number of bad [i]Pit bull[/i] owners could double that of good ones. We just don't know.[/quote]

Since it is WAY more difficult to care for a wolf than for a dog, yes, I imply that there are more bad owners than good ones. And no, I cannot prove that, it is solely based on my opinion and some common sense.

[quote name='Seijun']
So you're saying that my wanting to own Shilo (the low content wolfdog in my avatar) is nothing more than pure selfishness? That I walk her twice a day, taking several hours out of my day to be with her, cramming all my college courses into two days to spend as much time with her as possible, is just an act of selfishness, and does not have regard for her needs or well-being? What should I do, have her PTS? Throw her out into the woods so she will have to find her own food, probably starving to death or getting killed?[/quote]

No, I am not saying your wanting to own a wolf is pure selfishness, I am saying you OWNING a wolf is pure selfishness and of course I do not mean that you let her go in the woods or have her killed. It is one thing to care for an already existing captive wolf or hybrid than to go out and breed them for pets or buy a wolf from someone who breeds them as pets. If you have done so - then yes, in my opinion you are keeping your wolf out of pure selfishness.

I'd compare it to my aversion of breeding mixes. I have a VERY negative opinion about breeding two different kinds of dogs. But I would still always get a mixed breed. I get them from the shelter or from another place where they would die if nobody would take them in. In my opinion there is a difference. Same thing with the wolves. There is a difference between getting a wolf and care for it and get it away from a situation where it would die than actually go out and buy one out of sheer pleasure of owning a wolf.

[quote name='Seijun']
Some places do require licenses. Fat lot of good that does. The people giving them out don't know what a wolf needs. Same for the people making the law... [/quote]

I agree that regulations and a required license may not be the best solution. But in my opinion, it is better to have some bad laws among good ones than have no laws at all and allow Pete and Jack to own a wolf.

[quote name='Seijun']
The goal of the responsible wild animal owner is not to domesticate their wild animal, but to experience and enjoy that very "wildness" that makes them so unnatractive as pets to most people. [/quote]

Well, then enjoy it by observing them in the wild. Because that's where they belong.

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I can't put it any plainer, and I am sorry you can not understand. You are confusing the two words - exotic and wild.

A siamese cat is "exotic" or "wild"? It is exotic, it is born, raised and interacts with human intervention for survival.

A tiger cat born here in the states, is exotic, born, raised and interacts with human intervention for survival.

"WILD" - no human intervention!!! You know, like the tigers and lions that live in Africa now!

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I used that term for your benefit, because you can not distinguish the meaning of those two words. And if I have ZERO valid arguments, why are you getting so ansty about it?



READ what you wrote here... The tiger was doing what it would do in the wild. You said so yourself "grabbed him like a mother tiger would" This tiger did nothing wrong! I agree that he was only doing what he thought he should... But you know what? He still put his owner's life at risk! Even though this guy had been handling tigers for years, he was still put at risk!!!!!

You have ZERO valid arguments here![/quote]

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and here i thought 'exotic' referred to dancing men in leopard print thongs and 'wild' was more like guys you find at a frat party! geez i really should expand my vocabulary :oops:

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I just used those as an example. I could use other examples if you'd like.


i understand 'exotic" and "wild"...and there is absolutely no comparison to a siamese "house" cat and a tiger......[/quote]

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My only comment regarding the fact that wild/exotic (i.e.: non-domesticated) animals being perfectly happy in captivity would be to point out the fact that many zoo animals engage in repetitive, obsessive behaviour (also known as stereotypic) such as pacing, rocking, feather-plucking, etc. This is very common in captive bears, elephants, big cats. One study found that zoo lions spend half their waking hours pacing.

Even smaller mammals such as racoons exhibit these behaviours.
These behaviours do not exist in the wild and most experts think it is a reaction to stress and/or boredom.

With regards to the argument that captive born animals, having never known the wild, cannot possibly spend their days daydreaming of running free in the bush, I fully agree. An elephant born in captivity simply cannot know of the lush jungles of Thailand, or the plains of Africa.

It does not mean, however, that said elephant doesn't feel boredom, stress and anxiety from being kept in an enclosure that is a million times smaller that its natural habitat.

The elephant may not know *why* it is feeling bored and anxious, but it doesn't prevent it from feeling those emotions. This is hardwired into the animal.

One can lock a child in a windowless room for its entire life, slipping it food and water under the door. The child will know nothing of the outside world, but it will not prevent the child from being miserable.

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opps! I did not see that question! Our site is still in the "under construction" stage! I hate that! There are some html tags that need to be fixed, I just wish the webmaster would get done with it. I do understand that it takes time. As soon as it gets done, I can post it for sure, or unless you want me to private email you, it is up to you.

I dont think anyone is getting "antsy".....**taps foot**..i'm waiting for you to answer my question....do you have a website with your "cats"?[/quote]

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I think you are confusing instinct with learned skills/knowledge. An animal will not lose its "wild" instinct, acquired over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, within a single generation. We still see in domesticated cats and dogs several residual instincts.

What will be lacking in a human raised animal is the "education" that biological parent would give said animal. In the case of big cats, there is a significant amount of teaching that is done by the mother to the cub(s).

In your example, the cheetas still had the wild instinct to hunt, they just didn't know any better with regards to their selected prey because nobody showed them.

[quote name='Millie']Their "wild" instincts have changed, they would not be able to survive in the wild because they are now dependent upon humans for survival. Did you recently see the cheetah story on Animal Planet? Where two cheetah cubs, were raised by a human and the human released them into the wild. The one cheetah brother, did not know any better that Lions kill cheetahs, so he tormented the lions, until one male lion killed him. They also went after bigger game then the "wild" cheetah would naturally. Their instincts of being wild were almost gone. So you can not take a lion, tiger, cheetah, etc, that was bred domestically and return them to the wild, thinkig they are going to survive. Scientists, Rehabbers, Zoologists, have proven this as a fact and not fiction.
[/quote]

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No, sorry. We rescue them and either house them here, or we find them legal and responsible homes.


[quote name='"rotten_two"']owner of big cats? why? do you train them for movies or shows?[/quote]

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I'm curious, how do you guys feel about keeping birds or parrots? Technically, they are not domesticated, just captive bred wild animals.

What about animals like sugar gliders or flying squirrels? Again, not domesticated, just captive bred.

All our animals were at one time wild, and personally I can't see any reason for wanting to keep a wolf (although I absolutely love them, and yes, have secretly dreamed of having one, but I NEVER would), or big cats. Many, many captive bred animals develop behavioural problems, parrots pluck and mutilate themselves. Should we not keep them as pets either?

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I wish I could remember the name of that movie, but see if you can find it. In it, the rehabber had to train them to hunt. "Two Cheetah Brothers"? I am not sure what the title was. He said something about, that since the two cheetah cubs had become dependent upon him for survival, that he had to "train" them to fend/hunt for themselves. Darn! I wish I could remember that name of that movie! I am only remembering pits and pieces of it.



quote: In your example, the cheetas still had the wild instinct to hunt, they just didn't know any better with regards to their selected prey because nobody showed them.

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[quote name='Millie']I wish I could remember the name of that movie, but see if you can find it. In it, the rehabber had to train them to hunt. "Two Cheetah Brothers"? I am not sure what the title was. He said something about, that since the two cheetah cubs had become dependent upon him for survival, that he had to "train" them to fend/hunt for themselves. Darn! I wish I could remember that name of that movie! I am only remembering pits and pieces of it.



quote: In your example, the cheetas still had the wild instinct to hunt, they just didn't know any better with regards to their selected prey because nobody showed them.[/quote]

Was it Two Brothers? I think that was about lions though, not cheetahs.

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lol...don't think so! each dictionary will also have their own definition of the words, somewhat different and somewhat alike. Dictionaries are complied by men, and men do make mistakes.
And I am not insulting you, so please, do not insult me by stating I need a vocabulary lesson. I am alot older than you are, and more experienced in the exotic feline world.

quote:
Well I pulled that out of the Webster’s Dictionary. If you'd like I can look it up in the oxford dictionary or any other dictionary / encyclopedia of your choice.
I just think you need a vocabulary lesson or two. And as luck has it, I’m just the person to school you.[/quote]

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[quote name='Millie']lol...don't think so! each dictionary will also have their own definition of the words, somewhat different and somewhat alike. Dictionaries are complied by men, and men do make mistakes.
And I am not insulting you, so please, do not insult me by stating I need a vocabulary lesson. I am alot older than you are, and more experienced in the exotic feline world.

quote:
Well I pulled that out of the Webster’s Dictionary. If you'd like I can look it up in the oxford dictionary or any other dictionary / encyclopedia of your choice.
I just think you need a vocabulary lesson or two. And as luck has it, I’m just the person to school you.[/quote][/quote]
I promise you that the definitions of exotic and wild will be quite similar in any reputable dictionary. Now if you are talking about Millie's homemade dictionary, thats another story. :lol:
Seriously though, I am not trying to pick on you, but you have not made a single, valid point in any of your posts. Just because you have x number of tigers in your backyard, does not make you the authority on wild animals.

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don't take it personally millie but you have all of a dozen posts on this board and unless you have lurked here for a while -- i am not sure you know what you are getting into no matter how much older or experienced you might be :D

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I have one african grey, and I simply adore him. He has such a vocabulary! He loves to dance, and sing! He is such a pistol too! He keeps me in stitches! The more I giggle, the more he does! He is in the computer room with me right now, choosing what he wants in his bowl or not. So of course, the things he does not want in his bowl, he tosses onto the floor! the stinker!

I have no experience with sugar gliders or flying squirrels. But I like the little chipmunks with their tiny itty bitty tails wagging!

You are right in your assumption that many exotic animals do become "bored", so do domestics. It is up to us, their owners, to keep their lives filled with enrichment. That is why there is alot of business in selling pet toys! The bigger the animal, the bigger the toy!

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