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Alan

Why do you think people oppose dog fighting?

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Thanks again Hmmmm for the info, now I can say I am firmly against hog hunting too. Where it's necessary let people do it with guns.

When you think about it there is no other hunting sport where the dog is in direct contact with the animal. They might point, retrieve, etc. but they don't do the kill directly. This fir=ts more into my philosophy that dogs can be our partners but when it comes down to it it is up to us to protect them from danger, because it is we who have domesticated them.

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[quote name='Michele'][quote]it is up to us to protect them from danger, because it is we who have domesticated them.
[/quote]


OK..here's a question for everybody.....what about bomb dogs? Aren't they in danger. What about police dogs? Police dogs get shot all the time...we put them in danger, don't we?[/quote]

It's true we put bomb dogs and police dogs in danger, and it's not as if THEY fill out an application for these jobs. Yet I do support using them for these purposes because there is no substitution for their skills here. So that does make my above statement hypocritical. Also the family dog who may die saving it's human's lives ... I would not wish the human to have died instead (well in MOST cases :evilbat: )

Of course endangering dogs in the line of duty is not the same as endangering them for sport or our (egotistical IMO) notion of "preserving the breed." Is it???

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"When you think about it there is no other hunting sport where the dog is in direct contact with the animal"

Sorry, but not true. We have allot of bear hunters in our area, and this time of year they only get chase permits, but during hunting season they are allowed to shoot the bear. Sometimes the bear trees, and sometimes not, in which case the hunter can sometimes lose dogs. Coon hunting is also dangerous for the dog, as an adult male coon can easly top 35 lbs and have been known to injure dogs to an extent that the dog would have to be put down. When I train my sled dogs in the winter, we also come upon allot of coyote hunters, and their dogs are mildly interested in mine, but tend to run off after awhile. I must not run fast enough. :-?

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You can argue/debate amongst yourselves. I've read every single thread. Do not accuse me of not reading the threads and I have witnessed what you are talking about in terms of so called rolling to determine if a dog is aggressive/game/whatever word you want.

Debate away. I'm out of this.

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[quote name='FearedDogFan'][quote name='Pumpkin the musher']"When you think about it there is no other hunting sport where the dog is in direct contact with the animal"

Sorry, but not true. We have allot of bear hunters in our area, and this time of year they only get chase permits, but during hunting season they are allowed to shoot the bear. Sometimes the bear trees, and sometimes not, in which case the hunter can sometimes lose dogs. Coon hunting is also dangerous for the dog, as an adult male coon can easly top 35 lbs and have been known to injure dogs to an extent that the dog would have to be put down. When I train my sled dogs in the winter, we also come upon allot of coyote hunters, and their dogs are mildly interested in mine, but tend to run off after awhile. I must not run fast enough. :-?[/quote]

You forgot mountain lion hunting. :wink: Mountain Curs and Coonhounds are popular breeds for this sort of hunting. Sometimes the lion is treed, and sometimes it isn't. Isn't that dangerous? :-?[/quote]

Ick, trophy and "varmint" hunting, I forgot ... I was thinking of deer, duck, elk, pheasant, antelope ... where you generally eat the prey. Fortunately I don't know anyone who hunts 'coons, lions, bear. (Now watch someone will tell me well, they eat that meat too) :-?

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[quote]And to those against matching but not against hoghunting, I just dont get it? For one, the hog outweighs the dogs by A LOT of weight, and several dogs lose their lives. It was said the dog can be picked up at any time during a fight with a hog.... Um, yeah whatever. Only if the hunter can get a clean shot of the hog. But, in matching a dog, the dog can be picked up at any time the handler feels they need to do so. With no interference from a wild hog.
[/quote]

I don't know about where you are from but here in Texas the dogs DO NOT fight the hogs, they CATCH & hold them. Hence the term "catch dogs". Sure dogs can get killed by tusks, that is why they wear protective vests. Only in CAGED hunts are dogs fighting with hogs and that is just as disgusting AND ILLEGAL as fighting dogs. Sure hogs out weigh the dogs........so did bulls.

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This explains how it is done

[quote]Feral hog hunting with dogs is a relatively new sport to many areas of Oklahoma and north Texas. But dogs have been used in pursuit of feral hogs for years in other parts of these states. Trained dogs have proven themselves to be efficient at catching feral hogs. Like trapping, hunting hogs with trained dogs has been a proven way to remove feral hogs from suburban areas, golf courses and other populated areas where discharging a firearm may be illegal. [b]Hunters using dogs generally ride horses or mules in order to keep up with the dogs. Most hunters have dogs that track and eventually bay the hog and/or dogs that catch the hog. Often catch dogs are led by the hunters until the other dogs bay the hog and are then released to go in and catch and hold the hog until the hunters arrive.[/b]
[/quote][/code]

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Guest Anonymous
[quote name='cheekymunkee']This explains how it is done

[quote]Feral hog hunting with dogs is a relatively new sport to many areas of Oklahoma and north Texas. But dogs have been used in pursuit of feral hogs for years in other parts of these states. Trained dogs have proven themselves to be efficient at catching feral hogs. Like trapping, hunting hogs with trained dogs has been a proven way to remove feral hogs from suburban areas, golf courses and other populated areas where discharging a firearm may be illegal. [b]Hunters using dogs generally ride horses or mules in order to keep up with the dogs. Most hunters have dogs that track and eventually bay the hog and/or dogs that catch the hog. Often catch dogs are led by the hunters until the other dogs bay the hog and are then released to go in and catch and hold the hog until the hunters arrive.[/b]
[/quote][/code][/quote]
THAT explains ONE way that SOME poeple do it...
You do see it says generally?
There are several ways they do it. Yeah, one is when the dogs hold the hog until the hunter gets there but most organized hunts give the option of guns, bows, spears, knives, and bare hands- which means the dogs kill the hog, or as they put it "die trying".
[quote]Boar hogs have a very thick armor plating over the shoulder area that is very hard to penetrate. Large caliber rifles are recommended, although you can choose any weapon, including archery, handguns, knives, or bare hands with dogs![/quote]

One more thing... I saw you stated a dog is proven game when the other dog is dead or cant continue. Just like to inform you that isnt true.

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[quote name='BuddysMom']OK I'm going to butt in where I don't belong so here goes:

Can people lay off Kat already? She got mad, said some stuff, people said stuff to her ... enough is enough IMO!

(Going back to MMOB now...)[/quote]
Thank you! Infact I beleive we had a similar disccussion in DALS thread! :-?

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[quote name='Lucky Chaos'][quote name='courtnek']

I am against dog fighting, just as I see no purpose for boxing. just my take.

however, just FYI, a foxhounds job is NOT to rip the fox to shreds, and any that do so are quickly ousted from a good pack. The foxhounds job is to corner, trap and hold th fox til te huntmaster gets there. Fox was originally hunted for its fur, and having the hound ripped it to shreds completely negatd the sale of that fur....[/quote]

Sorry, just what I knew from my limited research. I never thought about the fur, I did come across places that said at least in modern times when they don't use the fur, the fox was ripped apart. I do stand my ground when I say there's no need for it. More than half the time the dogs never even see foxes, so why can't you preserve the breed's working instinct only using scent?[/quote]

most do now. My FH was a working dog, from a pack. they hunted the scent, not the foxes themselves.
the ones you see that PETA portrays, and the web sites, are usualy "good-ol-boys", not real huntclubs. they arent hunting for game. or sport. they think its funny to watch the fox get ripped to shreds. this is NOT the way most true hunting foxhounds are trained.

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[quote name='courtnek'][quote name='Lucky Chaos'][quote name='courtnek']

I am against dog fighting, just as I see no purpose for boxing. just my take.

however, just FYI, a foxhounds job is NOT to rip the fox to shreds, and any that do so are quickly ousted from a good pack. The foxhounds job is to corner, trap and hold th fox til te huntmaster gets there. Fox was originally hunted for its fur, and having the hound ripped it to shreds completely negatd the sale of that fur....[/quote]

Sorry, just what I knew from my limited research. I never thought about the fur, I did come across places that said at least in modern times when they don't use the fur, the fox was ripped apart. I do stand my ground when I say there's no need for it. More than half the time the dogs never even see foxes, so why can't you preserve the breed's working instinct only using scent?[/quote]

most do now. My FH was a working dog, from a pack. they hunted the scent, not the foxes themselves.
the ones you see that PETA portrays, and the web sites, are usualy "good-ol-boys", not real huntclubs. they arent hunting for game. or sport. they think its funny to watch the fox get ripped to shreds. this is NOT the way most true hunting foxhounds are trained.[/quote]

As a big fan of Rita Mae Brown foxhunting mysteries I am glad to hear this!

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I could be wrong, but I believe that in the US most hunt parties actually capture and then release the fox after the hunt is over.

With regards to the thoughts that all "contact" canine sports are somehow inhumane, I disagree. This sentiment seems to paint the image that dogs are somehow forced into participating in something they have no desire to do. I think the real issue in this regard is not in the truest sense a real concern for the dogs' well being, but much more so an issue of personal ethics and moral standpoint. Just because you or I don't want to chase down a small furry animal and kill it with our bare hands, doesn't mean that our dogs shouldn't have the desire to. In our society cruelty to animals, or anything deemed as "helpless and at your mercy", is considered morally wrong (and most of these types of people tend to harbour serious mental deficiencies), and as such many of us impart this belief system to our animals. It seems like we often forget that dogs, by nature, are aggressive predatory animals, they find nothing wrong with fighting and killing other animals. While I can't promise that I know as a fact what any dog wants or doesn't want, I'm quite sure that most of them would (and do) gladly risk injury or death for the chance to take on anything from a squirril to mountain lion. With the exception of pit fighting, in which the animals can't hope to escape eachother if they wanted to, you can't make a dog hunt another animal. They either have the drive, or gameness, to do so, or they don't. Don't kid yourselves, the same behavioral traits that make dogs into good pets are the same ones that make them effective predators. I can tell you that Zoey would love nothing more than to be coursed in open field trials after rabbits, it's part of her nature, and trust me she doesn't have the same vigor when going after an inanimate object. If I had the time and freedom to travel I would love to do game coursing with her (even though I don't eat rabbit), it would be something that she loves to do, So is that considered inhumane? Humans that participate in dangerous sports such as football, boxing, or rock-climbing, do so only out of personal desire, but they similarly risk their well being to do something they love. So just because atheletes often suffer serious and painful injuries (often at the hands of other atheletes), does that mean that such sports are inhumane and should be banned?

Also in regards to hunting, this is one of the few places where dogs still have a legitimate working role. Some animals have to have their populations kept in check, albeit this is due to human stupidity, but it still needs to be done as a result. In the US the most notable dangerous animals that a dog would hunt would be bears, boars, and (rarely) mountain lions, which often need to be destroyed due to environmental or safety factors. Hounds are needed to track the game, and hold it in place (bay) until the hunter can arrive and dispatch it. I've seen wild pigs in action, and I've even had two of them come after me once, trust me when I say that if you were a boar hunter the chances would be good that you'd be ass-out when 400 lbs of true belief that you didn't know was there came after you through through the brush. Yeah, dogs get seriously injured and even killed baying dangerous animals, but they do it because they have a mind to. The only force in the world that will make a couple dogs confront a large angry predator is called free will. Calling these 'blood hunts' inhumane and banning them would rob hunters the chance to effectively catch thier game and rob dogs of something they enjoy.

After my last post in this thread I've been trying to figure out excactly why I dislike dog fighting, and I think that it has primarily to do with what is commonly thought of as pit fighting today. And by that I mean the heartless thug dog fighters who see their Pitbulls almost as an inanimate disposable object, with no regard to the animal's wellfare at all. Often times the dogs involved in these situations have no choice other than to fight or to die, let alone that these animals are usually denied the proper social interaction that dogs require to be happy. Had I no prior knowedge of the malicious practices of the common criminal dog fighters I might not find myself in disagreement with what has been described in this thread as a responsible proper match between dogs. However, despising the thug-type pit fighting so much, I just can't make the jump to finding "responsible" dog matches acceptable, there is just too close of a connection.

Also here's something to chew on. What if dog matches were arranged with muzzled dogs? I realize there there probably wouldn't be much point in it for those who would be interested in matching their dogs, but would some of you who who find fighting unacceptable be OK with muzzled "wrestling" matches (just assume that muzzles wouldn't get pulled off etc..)? Just something to throw out there and see what you think.

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[quote name='Kat']Bk give over and get over yourself :roll: . I am not leaving and in no place did I say I was leaving, so whatever problem you obviously have with me, you may start getting over it or else you can ingore me which will suit fine. [/quote]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Guest Anonymous
Nice post CE.
I dislike the form of fighting most people see, or are somewhat familiar with. The thugs throwing their dogs together the way they do. Not letting the dogs decide when it is over, no scratching, no conditioning before the match, not picking the dog up when it should be, trying to fight a dog that shouldnt be fought... I despise those people as much as anyone else does.

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[url]http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqmisc.html[/url]

I accidently posted without the link DUGH LOL

BTW, Most of you have probably seen the very graphic pictures of dog fighting that have been posted on the net. I have never seen a dog fight but I have seen dogs after a dog fight and I never saw one looking like any of those pictures. I cant say it doesnt happen and that they dont get hurt but I would guess that most of those pictures were from the what we call "Thug Fighting".

What you have to keep in mind, Thug Fighters see their dogs as disposable. They dont care about breeding other than to breed more disposable dogs. On the other hand, (Correct me if I am wrong Hmmmm) people like Hmmmm, have a lot of money in their dogs and dont want them to be injured to the point that they are useless. Even if they loose a fight, it's not the end of their career. It's like boxing, from the standpoint that they loose a fight and come back to win another day. Like I said earlier, it's possible that the loosing dog may be more game than the winning dog and even be worth more money. If the fight is all one sided and the loosing dog refuses to quit, he shows he is game but if the winner isnt ever challenged, you cant say he is game. If he were given the same amount of resistance as the looser, he may quit.

One last thing, Once again, I dont and wont fight my dogs but gameness is important to me. Here is a perfect example of why. There was a dog named Blueberry (you may have heard the story) she was pregnant. She was asleep in another room. Some men snuck up on her owner while she was running the sweeper. Blueberry came to her aid, and dispite being shot at close range, continued to fight off the would be attackers. She and her pups survived and she saved her owner from who knows what. Now some of you may disagree, but to me, that shows a form of gameness. A lot of dogs would flea in a situation like that.

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[quote name='CoalSky']
Kat, you said you were leaving this thread several times. If you're going to "stay out of it" then stay out of it. If you can't handle the discussing, stay out of it. Oh wait, what's that saying? If you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen. And that's that. [/quote]

Shara, I tried to do just that but people were harrassing me to talk on an open forum and I stood up to defend myself, not to go back over what I have already said about the topic.

I will continue to read the replies but I won't post anymore on the topic. However, if I am slagged I will not sit back and take it.

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From the link Alan posted above, "The Rules"

[quote]Rule 7: Any dog who jumps the pit is automatically the loser of the contest and no scratches are necessary, and no dog is required or allowed to scratch to a dead dog. The live dog is the winner.[/quote]

Also there is no time limit for fighting, that I can tell. They can keep biting into each other as long as neither dog gives up.

Oh how noble, how beautiful, how magnificent!

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[quote name='BuddysMom'][quote name='Alan']A lot of dogs would flea in a situation like that.[/quote]

That is one funny typo![/quote]

Typeo? From me? Mr. Perfect speller? No actualy it wasnt a typeo. Remember she was a Pit, she didnt flea the situation because she had to scratch LOL.

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Alan, :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously I found this site informative too. It echoed many of the things Hmmm was saying ...

[url]http://www.realpitbull.com/fight.html[/url]

I find this site very objective and informative.

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