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Alan

Why do you think people oppose dog fighting?

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[quote name='courtnek']

I am against dog fighting, just as I see no purpose for boxing. just my take.

however, just FYI, a foxhounds job is NOT to rip the fox to shreds, and any that do so are quickly ousted from a good pack. The foxhounds job is to corner, trap and hold th fox til te huntmaster gets there. Fox was originally hunted for its fur, and having the hound ripped it to shreds completely negatd the sale of that fur....[/quote]

Sorry, just what I knew from my limited research. I never thought about the fur, I did come across places that said at least in modern times when they don't use the fur, the fox was ripped apart. I do stand my ground when I say there's no need for it. More than half the time the dogs never even see foxes, so why can't you preserve the breed's working instinct only using scent?

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I dont fight dogs nor would I if it were legal and I had everyones aproval. My reason is the same I dont hunt for deer. I have no problem eating deer meet; but, as long as there is a grocery store around I choose not to. I could if I were Grizly Adams living off the land but I just dont like to kill much of anything unless it is being agressive towards me. I would rather hunt bear or wild boar than something that (I know they can be dangerous in their own right) appears to be timid.

To kick someone out of a group for haveing a differnt view in my opinion is flat out wrong. I left a group for that reason. I wouldnt kick a person out of church for not believing in God. If you dont understand someone and you think they are wrong than you should try to win them over not cast them into darkness.

From what I have seen from Hmmmm, If she is a thug she has me fooled. Wether you agree with her or not, she at least has good intentions and common sence and isnt way out there like the guys who cut dogs with a knife to make them bleed so they will fight or the ones who cut a dogs front feet in half (yes it happens, sick and demented as it is) so they can better reach the other dogs throat.

Even so, someone like that, I would ban from a group, I would try to point out the flaws in their thinking. I would however beat the crap out of them the first time I caught them trying to cut a dogs legs or something stupid.

What was said about the controlled environment and gameness is correct. It wouldnt work from that standpoint. I was just thinking of making dog fighting more of a sport with protecting clothing and stuff. It wouldnt prove gameness and people like Hmmmm would still continue to test for gameness the same way they do now. However, maybe some of the ones who just throw two dogs together to watch them fight might jump at the chance to be on tv and fight their dog legaly. Those kinds of people do a lot of the sick stuff for their own reputation. They could make an even bigger name of themselves without causing any real harm to the dog.

I dont know, maybe it wouldnt work but like I like to throw stuff out there for people to brain storm on. You never know what idea might inpire another one. I try to inspire ideas to make improvements.

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I see the point to Alan's query and I thought it to be a very srticulate and well-thought post. I think there is a big difference with dog fighting in modern times than in the past. Not so much about the actual specifics about the practice, but about it's social acceptance in the past. In current times, with our complacent society and our desire to throw a big ol' padded blaket around everything to keep it from getting an owie, people (the minimally educated masses) mostly despise dog-fighting and Pitbulls because they are simply used to authorities telling them that they should. They are told dog fighting is illegal and inhumane because dogs are maiming and killing eachother. Pitbulls are a dog fighting breed and therefore are bad. It's political and media propoganda, and it creates something of a mass hysteria effect until it brought around the thought process of "If Pitbulls are bred to fight eachother to the death, then they're surely viscious and life-threatening animals". Joe Schmoe just can't seem to make the simple leap to thinking that just because Pitbulls are dog aggressive, doesn't mean that they aren't human freindly. Just as their Jack Russell Terriers and Whippets will chase and kill anything smaller than themselves, yet still be great and (and not life-threatening) docile companians.

I can only guess at the actual original reason for banning dog fighting, I suppose I could do some research and find something out. Bull and bear fighting was obviously outlawed because it was blatantly inhumane, espescially seeing as how the bait animal was almost always tethered and had no chance of surving the cruel encounter. Maybe the criteria for banning dog-fighting was simply because the dogs the dogs were penned-in and thus 'imprisoned' into fighting with no other choice. I dunno, but that's the only logic to it that comes to my mind right now. By the way, does anyone know if ratting was outlawed as well?

Now here is where I have to ask myself if setting two Pitbulls against eachother, in what is to be assumed a non-lethal match, any more inhumane than setting a few Walker Hounds against a mad-as-hell boar? To me, the answere is no, in fact boar hunting may be a little less humane because those pigs will, and often do, kill or maim hounds when they can. So I guess boar hunting should be illegal too? In my mind no. Boars are terribley aggressive and destructive to the habitat, in the US they are not a native species and need to be culled in order to keep their populations in check. And I know this from first hand experience, you've got to be one ballsey bastard to get anywhere near those things without dogs to keep them at bay. So if boar hunting should be legal, then should'nt dog fights also be legal? I dunno. I just can't seem to bring myself to say yes no matter how logical I might work it out to be, maybe I just suffer from the same social stigma beaten into my head saying that dog fighting is bad.

I'll finish up by saying that I've lately had a growing animosity toward the general social sentiment that all living thing should be protected from all harm at any cost. Violent sports are by far not my own cup of tea, but that doesn't mean that I think that they should all disappear. These are some of the things that have defined us throughout history and today, I'm not sure I'd want to live in a world where bad things didn't happen. It's just not the way the world works, and if that how someone truely feels then they should stop eating hamburgers and wearing leather and buying commercial produce and go live in a hermitage out in the woods. When you look at the big picture of things almost every amenity (sp?) that we enjoy comes at the cost of someone or something else. Life destroys life and begets life.

Wow, I hope at least some of this makes some sort of sense, I'm getting really tired and I'm not a good marathon typist.

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Canis erectus Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:56 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see the point to Alan's query


Yes you did :D You were right on target with what I was asking about. Yours was a very good post as well with food for thought.

See, to me, when you bring up something slightly controversial and discuss it open mindedly, you have a chance to learn something, even if you dont agree with it.

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I am appalled that you Hmmmm fight your dogs. I am totally and utterly disgusted by you endangering your dogs lives and causing them deliberate injury. Its exploitation and I think its bloody ridiculous that a board like Dogo who support the welfare of animals let you stay here. There are many other ways that a dog can be entertained.

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[quote name='Kat']I am appalled that you Hmmmm fight your dogs. I am totally and utterly disgusted by you endangering your dogs lives and causing them deliberate injury. Its exploitation and I think its bloody ridiculous that a board like Dogo who support the welfare of animals let you stay here. There are many other ways that a dog can be entertained.[/quote]

I agree. Fighting dogs is sick and inhumane.

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Well then, what are we going to do about it? Sit here and whine about something we are powerless to stop, something we cannot even prove conclusively is happening (Hmmmm is too clever to reveal anything other than the fact that she allegedly fights her dogs)? Kick someone out of the "group" for having a very different stance on something very important to a lot of us? Deny this person the right to freedom of expression, even though that expression is something we all abhor? Become the very sort of board we seek to avoid?

I am not supporting Hmmmm at all in her alleged activities. I am making that very clear. But it's no use sitting here whinging about how we all hate what she's doing. We can either put up with it begrudgingly or kick her off the board. The board that also, beyond our control, runs those disgusting ads for puppy mills and suchlike that we also claim to all detest with a passion.

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I see no difference at all. Dogs still get hurt, there is still no need for it, money is still being made at it. "Pros" may know more about how to match dogs properly ( weight, fight styles) but it still makes them NO better than the average punk who does it.

Also Hmmmm might not be as clever as she thinks. The feds troll dog boards [b] all[/b] the time looking for people who say they fight their dogs, that is why boards like Pitdogs.org use "code words" for the things they do. If you even mention the word fight on those types of board you are chased off the board. Time will tell.................

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[quote]But I just don't get it tho - why is it important for a dog to want to fight another dog? Just because it's breed tradition? Or is there some other purpose it serves?

I feel that every breed was created for a purpose - some for protection, some for hunting, etc etc... What is the value of breeding dogs that only want to fight each other? What purpose does this serve? What void is it filling?[/quote]

Yes, those questions are the same i have.

[quote]THEN you have the responsible dog fighter, takes excellent care of the dogs, the dogs live inside the person's house, they are treated like one of the family. [/quote]

:-?

Well i'll better stop reading this thread, there's nothing that can change my mind about this topic.

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[quote name='izzy'][quote]But I just don't get it tho - why is it important for a dog to want to fight another dog? Just because it's breed tradition? Or is there some other purpose it serves?

I feel that every breed was created for a purpose - some for protection, some for hunting, etc etc... What is the value of breeding dogs that only want to fight each other? What purpose does this serve? What void is it filling?[/quote]

Yes, those questions are the same i have.

[quote]THEN you have the responsible dog fighter, takes excellent care of the dogs, the dogs live inside the person's house, they are treated like one of the family. [/quote]

:-?

Well i'll better stop reading this thread, there's nothing that can change my mind about this topic.[/quote]



Maybe I can clear things up. For those who fight dogs, the number one trait the dogs are bred for is gameness. Gameness is not agression. Gameness is the willingness to fight and overcome all odds and not stop. Some people call it heart. Often times the loosing dog in a fight could be just as or more important as the winning dog. Perhaps the winning dog is much more experienced and the fight becomes totaly one sided. If the loosing dog continues to hang in there it is considerd game. They will then take the game dog and breed it to one which can bite harder or wrestle better or be longer winded (whatever short comming the game dog had). The other traits are much easier to come by than gameness.

Those who fight for gameness feel that to breed the dog for any other reason is causing the dog to evolve into something else. In other words, all the past dogs were bred for gameness, if you breed for anything else, the dogs will not be the same breed that everyone (even those who dont fight their dog) loves. Everyone admires the courage and spirit of the dogs. The same belief is that the only way to find the game dogs is through fighting.

When the dogs were fought legaly, people agressive dogs were shot on the spot. This was done because the dogs have to be handled durring a fight. Most feel that the dogs had a better temperement then and that is why so many of the dogs bite people now. They are not being bred the same.

When the dogs were matched responsibly, they have what is called a scratch. If one of the dogs appears to be trying to get away, they stop the fight, seperate the dogs back to their side of the ring, and then let the dog go which appeard to be trying to get away. If that dog goes back towards the dog it was fighting, when he gets half way there, the opponent is released, and it is assumed that he wasnt trying to get away, he was trying to get a better hold. If the dog doenst go back to the other side of the ring, he forfeits the fight and its over.

Those who fight dogs irresponsibly, often just throw two dogs together, cut them with a knife to make them bleed, use small animals for bait to get the taste of blood in the dogs mouth, match dogs with no concern to size, and consider the dogs as disposable. It's all about the battle and the reputation. If the dog dies, they get another one for 50 bucks. They dont care about their dogs. They dont prepare the dogs for the fight (get them in shape) or take care of them medicaly when it is over. Sometimes they even throw multiple dogs together. It's more barbaric and what you think of when you think of roman gladiator times.

Both ways, dogs get hurt and dogs die. However, the responsible way, the dogs are rarely torn up to the extent of the pictures you see on the internet and the they dont die as often because like I said, even the looser is considerd valuable. Those guys have much more money in their dogs and pride in their bloodlines.

I have never been to a dog fight. I am speaking from what I was told by people I knew who did it years ago.

I also know that because the dogs were bred for fighting, they are better equiped for it. Their body is put together for it, they say they heal faster (I believe this from some things I have seen in the past such as kennel accidents).

The main thing is, some do it for what they consider to be in the interest of the breed and others do it for the barbarism.

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[quote name='bk_blue']Well then, what are we going to do about it? Sit here and whine about something we are powerless to stop, something we cannot even prove conclusively is happening (Hmmmm is too clever to reveal anything other than the fact that she allegedly fights her dogs)? Kick someone out of the "group" for having a very different stance on something very important to a lot of us? Deny this person the right to freedom of expression, even though that expression is something we all abhor? Become the very sort of board we seek to avoid?

I am not supporting Hmmmm at all in her alleged activities. I am making that very clear. But it's no use sitting here whinging about how we all hate what she's doing. We can either put up with it begrudgingly or kick her off the board. The board that also, beyond our control, runs those disgusting ads for puppy mills and suchlike that we also claim to all detest with a passion.[/quote]

I totally agree with everything you said except that we are not "sitting here whining about it," as far as I can tell we are having a discussion albeit one that I'm sure has been had many times before, I for one wasn't there so I appreciate Alan bringing it up. I have learned a lot and I am still totally disgusted with what Hmmmm does but at least I have a much better idea about the specifics of "responsible dog fighting" WHAT A TOTAL OXYMORON by the way. :evil:

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[quote name='Alan']Maybe I can clear things up. For those who fight dogs, the number one trait the dogs are bred for is gameness. Gameness is not agression. [b]Gameness is the willingness to fight and overcome all odds and not stop. [/b]

[color=blue]I can't imagine why this would be a desirable trait in any dog.[/color]
Some people call it heart. Often times the loosing dog in a fight could be just as or more important as the winning dog. Perhaps the winning dog is much more experienced and the fight becomes totaly one sided. If the loosing dog continues to hang in there it is considerd game. [b]They will then take the game dog and breed it to one which can bite harder or wrestle better or be longer winded (whatever short comming the game dog had). [/b]The other traits are much easier to come by than gameness.

[color=blue]Oh yeah, good idea. Let's breed for a dog who can bite harder and wrestle better.[/color]
[b]Those who fight for gameness feel that to breed the dog for any other reason is causing the dog to evolve into something else. [/b]

[color=blue]What a load of crap. If that's what they think makes the breed good, maybe the breed SHOULD evolve.[/color]
In other words, all the past dogs were bred for gameness, if you breed for anything else, the dogs will not be the same breed that everyone (even those who dont fight their dog) loves. Everyone admires the courage and spirit of the dogs. The same belief is that the only way to find the game dogs is through fighting.

When the dogs were fought legaly, people agressive dogs were shot on the spot. This was done because the dogs have to be handled durring a fight. Most feel that the dogs had a better temperement then and that is why so many of the dogs bite people now. They are not being bred the same.

When the dogs were matched responsibly, they have what is called a scratch. If one of the dogs appears to be trying to get away, they stop the fight, seperate the dogs back to their side of the ring, and then let the dog go which appeard to be trying to get away. If that dog goes back towards the dog it was fighting, when he gets half way there, the opponent is released, and it is assumed that he wasnt trying to get away, he was trying to get a better hold. If the dog doenst go back to the other side of the ring, he forfeits the fight and its over.

Those who fight dogs irresponsibly, often just throw two dogs together, cut them with a knife to make them bleed, use small animals for bait to get the taste of blood in the dogs mouth, match dogs with no concern to size, and consider the dogs as disposable. It's all about the battle and the reputation. If the dog dies, they get another one for 50 bucks. They dont care about their dogs. They dont prepare the dogs for the fight (get them in shape) or take care of them medicaly when it is over. Sometimes they even throw multiple dogs together. It's more barbaric and what you think of when you think of roman gladiator times.

[b]Both ways, dogs get hurt and dogs die. However, the responsible way, the dogs are rarely torn up to the extent of the pictures you see on the internet and the they dont die as often[/b] because like I said, even the looser is considerd valuable. Those guys have much more money in their dogs and pride in their bloodlines.

I have never been to a dog fight. I am speaking from what I was told by people I knew who did it years ago.

I also know that because the dogs were bred for fighting, they are better equiped for it. Their body is put together for it, they say they heal faster (I believe this from some things I have seen in the past such as kennel accidents).

The main thing is, some do it for what they consider to be in the interest of the breed and [b]others do it for the barbarism[/b].[/quote]

[color=blue]I would say that this applies to all dog fighters.[/color]

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Yep! And to say that man biters were killed on the spot is not the truth. Chinaman was a man biter & several others were as well. They were bred just like any of the others. I don't have my book handy but I do have one that tells history of some of the dogs of yesterday AND today, there were several well known dogs who bit.

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JM, (sorry it won't let me quote you!)

DAL wasn't deleted because of what she did with her dogs. She was deleted because, when she went whining to another board and then said punkishly "go ahead and delete me if you want," then the other board's mod accused K of being a "cult leader" and not "letting" people leave and K had enough.

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[quote name='BuddysMom']JM, (sorry it won't let me quote you!)

DAL wasn't deleted because of what she did with her dogs. She was deleted because, when she went whining to another board and then said punkishly "go ahead and delete me if you want," then the other board's mod accused K of being a "cult leader" and not "letting" people leave and K had enough.[/quote]

It won't let you quote me because I deleted my post. I'm not going to post on this thread any more because I don't think anyone's mind is going to be changed (no matter which side they're on), and I don't want to get anyone more pissed, or me get more pissed.

So there.

Mouth is zipped.

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[quote name='Doberfanatic'][quote name='Mei-Mei'][b]And just to make it clear once again:

I don't agree with Dogfighting, but Hmmm is not going to be asked to leave the board. Sheesh, what about that don't some of you understand? We have been going around about this not for days or months, but for years! And she has explained her position concerning testing her dogness for gameness about 100 times. I don't agree, but I understand. She does not let her dogs fight to the death in the pit or anything like that. Do you really think K would let someone she believes to be an animal abuser stay at this board? Gosh, I'm really disappointed in some of you. :-?

Since the decision has already been made than debate the original question. If you feel you can't stay on the original question than I suggest you move to another topic. [/b][/quote]


While many of you may understand the reasons why Hmm's dog matching is different than JQP's dog matching, SOME of us don't. And I actually care to know. I'm not debating wether or not Hmm stays. I'm sure you have your reasons. What I am doing is trying to get clarification on what those reasons are.

I don't see anything wrong with wondering why Hmm is allowed to stay, when other people who do what she does are heavily ridiculed.

I'm not a blind follower. If I am curious about something, I will ask. I respect the opinions of the mods and all that, however, I don't feel it is out of my boundaries to ask for an explanation on a subject such as this.[/quote]

I agree with you. I am not calling for her head, this board belongs to all of you & so far you have been sharing your board with her. I am sure she is here for a good reason. I just find it odd that someone who supports dog fighting & who supplies these fighters with their tools is on this board. So she says she doesn't fight them, she only mathces them. For what? For who? SOMEONE is fighting them. Whether it be her or who ever she sells her dogs to and YES that IS contributing to this breed's problems. EVERY time there is a fight bust it brings this breed just a little further down.

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[quote name='JackieMaya'][quote name='BuddysMom']JM, (sorry it won't let me quote you!)

DAL wasn't deleted because of what she did with her dogs. She was deleted because, when she went whining to another board and then said punkishly "go ahead and delete me if you want," then the other board's mod accused K of being a "cult leader" and not "letting" people leave and K had enough.[/quote]

It won't let you quote me because I deleted my post. I'm not going to post on this thread any more because I don't think anyone's mind is going to be changed (no matter which side they're on), and I don't want to get anyone more p***, or me get more p***.

So there.

Mouth is zipped.[/quote]

JM I envy you I can't seem to keep my mouth zipped on this one at all!

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[quote name='BuddysMom'][quote name='Alan']Well, I didnt mean to start WW3. I just wanted to stimulate some conversation and my post wasnt supposed to be asking if you favor dog fighting. It was supposed to be asking why you think people who want Pit Bulls gone, oppose it. If you want to see something obliterated, what difference does it matter how it is done. The people who want pits obliterated do not see them as dogs or pets. They see them as vicious killing machines with no reason to be allowed to live. That is what I was getting at.[/quote]

OK I think I can answer this because when I first joined Dogo I was one of those extremely misguided people who thought maybe pit bull bans were OK. The reason I thought this was NOT out of disliking the breed but rather out of thinking (again wrongly) that it would stem the drug dealer / gangster byb and extreme indifference and cruelty, and admittedly I did think most pits came from this environment and were therefore people agressive and dangerous. I thought, better the needle than the torture of these dogs and the "bait" dogs they steal and torture also. What I have realized since (which dogo helped teach me) is 1. The vast majority of pits belong to responsible, loving owners and are not vicious or used for fighting and 2. Bans do not stop the criminals, it only makes the situation worse.

In other words Alan, maybe you have a false stereotype of "those who want pit bulld banned." Maybe their motives are not hatred of pit bulls, but love of dogs, and they just need some major education like I had.[/quote]

Sorry quoting myself :oops: HOWEVER all of you are asking that we answer the Original Question and I did this 3 pages ago with no response. So Alan (or anyone else), how 'bout it? Is it possible that pit enthusiasts and others create a false sterotype of ban supporters? After all, knowing thine "enemy" is the first step to winning them over to your side!

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Feck it I've had enough threats through my pm message box than I care to even count. I have a strong opinion and NO form of FIGHTING is right. It will only make a dog more aggressive but I am not going to sit on this thread and get slandered by a moderator for voicing my opinion. No justification can be given to justify rolling from fighting and I see so much bull shite going on here and try to twist facts so other members will accept it. Its the same and for a breeder to want to test dogs for aggression/gameness/whatever word you want to use to dress it up, it makes me sickened to the stomach.:evil: Several people have lost my respect.

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Well I don't respect Hmmmm in the least anymore, as I have learned through this post (Thanks Alan) that these terms like "rolling" and "matching" are really putting two dogs together and letting them fight and hurt each other. It is sick, disgusting, and cruel. I have NO idea how anyone could see it otherwise. Still I don't support banning Hmmmm and even if I did it's not my decision.

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Truthfully dog fighting is what STARTED this whole ban the breed bull shit!! USHS got it in their heads to save the dogs from themselevs. They started a campaign to end dog fighting, no one really even knew it existed until THEY brought it to light. THEY are the ones who started the (at the time) bait dog myths and by starting this ( and other ) rumors they basically taught the punks & low lifes how to do it and made it sound cool & tough. The wrong way of course, like there is a RIGHT way.

EVERY time a dog fighting bust is made here ( and there have been several this year) we all get to see the dogs paraded in front of the camera on catch poles, we all get to hear about how these poor dogs are not adoptable because of thier fighting past ( whether or NOT they were all fought) & will now be killed. That seals it in the minds of the general public that these dogs are unstable & will turn on humans so IMO it is every bit as bad a problem as human aggression is.

It may not be the biggest problem the breed faces but it is still a pretty big one.

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[b][color=red][/color] :evilbat:
First where do you people live??? I am so totally appallled that anyone could call this a "hobby" without making a quick stop by their local Mental Health Center!!! After years of studying the human psyche it is a verifiable fact that people who enjoy cruelty and watching suffering of anything or devoid of many things lacking in completion of a healthy human being. I cannot in my wildest imagination enjoy watching two living creatures of any kind destroy one another. Yes in the eco system one does feed on another but if i am not correct please correct me the kill is done swiftly. To gather about with a pint and watch this is horrid. It is highly illegal in my home state of Texas and stiff legal penalites are in enforced...as it should be. Whats next?? Hobby of watching a fellow human being struggle as it is bound and stabbed to death???? How far do we go to "entertain" ourselves.....Jeffrey Dahmer and his ilk "enjoyed" what they did. Susan[/b]

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