DogPaddle Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 CC - I can live with that. Frankly, I mostly responded because I couldn't imagine you being that close-minded so I was shocked and was hoping I misunderstood you. BK - I agree with you. I like pits but if the only way we can continue to have them is as dog-aggresive dogs that *must* be game tested, well . . . We could just choose to change that. Would they be the EXACT same breed - no; would they be very close - yes. We do it all the time with other breeds and other traits including temperment right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 DP, we kind of already did that. The American Staffordshire Terrier, remember? :wink: I like AmStaffs but right now its sad what breeding has done to them! :x Some of them are STILL dog-aggressive, they arent anywhere NEAR as agile as theyre supposed to be, etc. etc. I dont mind them and would love to have one if I were leaning towards more of a bulldog, but Im not. Besides, AmStaffs have WAY more health problems than APBTs. Im sure in the future we will be able to have the game APBT without fighting them. My guess is science will help us with that. Lets hope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Chaos Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 [quote name='bk_blue']I am sure this has been asked before, but anyway...why do we need "game" dogs? What is their purpose? Before you start rabbiting on about how there are lots of other dog breeds that have no particular purpose or are so far removed from their original purpose that it may as well not count, why do you need a dog-aggressive dog that you can't even keep legally in most parts of the world, or if you can keep them, are subject to so many restrictions it's not worth the effort? That if said dog makes one false move that may not be considered so bad in a different dog breed, it's curtains for that dog? That you have to keep separated from your other dogs, if you have them, most of the time? Why do you need a dog, if it is to be kept so true to the original intentions of the founders of the breed, needs to be *fought* to be considered worthy? Where is the allure in that? [/quote] Well, then why do we need dogs with herding instinct? Why should we preserve breeds like border collies with their natural instinct, even though that natural instinct is what makes them hard to own? We don't NEED such a high energy dog in this day and age, why not make a breed that looks like a border collie but can live perfectly happy in a tiny apartment with almost no excercise? Whatever breed you decide on, I think you should adapt to the needs of that breed, not the other way around. We don't "need" dog agressive or game dogs anymore than we need herding instinct in border collies, but that instinct is what makes the breed what it is. True fanciers can't imagine their breed any differenetly, they whole heartedly love it, even the "faults" like dog agression. They adapt to the dogs needs, whether it be keeping the dog away from other dogs, or making sure the dog has a good outlet for its energy. Dog aggression is NOT whats getting pit bulls banned, overbreeding and bad owners is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddysMom Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Border Collies' working abilities can be tested in a way that is not a felony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I agree! Go Ravyn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddysMom Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Standing, clapping, and cheering! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Id just like to say that, I think, LC's point was she doesnt agree with changing a breed just to suit people at this time. Just like a fad. I agree. Certain traits in a dog make it what it is, and I dont think we should change that, IMO. BM did make a valid point though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Irena Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 well Ravyn at first i tried to ignore to answer but what can i do, my big moth just won't stay close :lol: i'm sorry if i repet somthing you alredy said, it was to hard to read this LONG post after 21 ( ! ) pages :lol: anyway the great answer without going to deteils to why we actualy keep doing working test to gun dogs, herding dogs, guard dogs etc' if this breeds no longer do there original work they were breed for? and the answer is: this special characters that this dogs were breed for in the first place is why people love them for, and breeding according to character, working abilitys and shape is whats keeps this breed preserved more or less how they were in the first place and that what made them so populare in the past days to today. the dog fighting area is a tender one, it's true that the pit abilitys and the specific dog that were generated for such demends is the same breed we love so much today and by more or less make the same test the breeders try to preserve. i know and more than agree that the method suck, but it's the only way for the breeder of the breed to keep it tru to his past . if somhow, somone somday ( how many similar words you can write in a singal sentens :D ) will find a good and a working way to keep the breed as he is BUT with better way i'm sure that most of the pit breeders will stop there fighting ( i'm optimistic, there always the crips who won't :evil: ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Irena Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 untill i done cheking myself for writing mistakes it's alredy 22 :o my god we breaking all records known to man, i never saw a thread so LONG with so many topics LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddysMom Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 [quote name='Irena']untill i done cheking myself for writing mistakes it's alredy 22 :o my god we breaking all records known to man, i never saw a thread so LONG with so many topics LOL[/quote] I understand what you're saying in spite of the "topics" (typos) :D Your last one was really a great double meaning, you meant to say creeps but you wrote crips, and the Crips are actually a nasty LA gang that probably does engage in dog fighting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Irena Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 hi i'm still not perfect, you see whats happening when i'm writing to fast and not double checking :oops: :lol: :lol: and by the way i meant creeps, the other one was by mistake :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 The problem I have with fighting (errm, sorry, "rolling") is that you are essentially being cruel to be kind and it's unnecessary cruelty at that. Putting dogs at great risk of harm to produce what are seen in the eyes of many as "superior" specimens of the APBT for some reason I cannot for the life of me understand. Furthermore, it's illegal. There's a REASON why it's illegal. Just like there's a reason why animal cruelty is illegal. Hello?? If you have to be so cruel to a dog in order to get its "best" attributes, that dog breed should no longer exist. Training a heeler to "heel" (and a well-trained cattledog can do the work of five people and that is a plus especially in Australia where many farmers can't afford to pay five people) is not cruel. I would imagine that training a Border Collie to herd isn't as cruel as fighting it against another dog either. I don't give a stuff what "true fanciers" of the breed think. It is cruel to fight your dog. End of story. The "true fanciers" need to get their heads out of their arses and realise that the old ways don't always cut it anymore. Not that long ago it wasn't a crime to rape one's wife, either, as sex was seen as the man's right. Does that mean that any man who rapes his wife is just a little old-school and should be allowed to get away with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddysMom Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Again bk I agree ... and the breed does not need to cease to exist. Just make sure you are breeding out human agression. They are a wonderful breed, my neighborhood has 3 sweet and gorgeous ones and I am sure that not one of them is "game tested". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Nice post BK and Ravyn. I think Ravyn needs some sort of dogo title or does she already have one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 [quote name='BuddysMom']Again bk I agree ... and the breed does not need to cease to exist. Just make sure you are breeding out human agression. They are a wonderful breed, my neighborhood has 3 sweet and gorgeous ones and I am sure that not one of them is "game tested".[/quote] Gamebred APBTs dont have problems with human aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddysMom Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 [quote name='Hmmmm'][quote name='BuddysMom']Again bk I agree ... and the breed does not need to cease to exist. Just make sure you are breeding out human agression. They are a wonderful breed, my neighborhood has 3 sweet and gorgeous ones and I am sure that not one of them is "game tested".[/quote] Gamebred APBTs dont have problems with human aggression.[/quote] Yes, we know that, you have helped to educate me about this. But NON-gamebred pits do not necessarily have a problem with human agression, do they? I mean. is it EITHER one is gamebred OR it is human agressive? Do you think gamebreeding is the only way to ensure a lack of human agression in the APBT? What if you temprement tested the parents as is done with other breeds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 People have already taken the game out of the dogs by breeding and we got the American Staffie. I do not consider these to be the same breed as the APBT, and I dont consider them to be as stable. Have you noticed that when a pit bull is blamed for a bite it is usually a pit bull mixed with something else, or a cur bred pit bull? There are several things that put the APBT apart from other breeds but that main thing is gameness. And for myself, and most other APBT lovers, it is not acceptable, or very intelligent, to breed that out of them. Like I said, we already have them... AmStaffs, and (no offense to anyone with ASTs) IMO they arent anywhere near the dog the APBTs are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddysMom Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 [quote name='Hmmmm']People have already taken the game out of the dogs by breeding and we got the American Staffie. I do not consider these to be the same breed as the APBT, and I dont consider them to be as stable. Have you noticed that when a pit bull is blamed for a bite it is usually a pit bull mixed with something else, or a cur bred pit bull? There are several things that put the APBT apart from other breeds but that main thing is gameness. And for myself, and most other APBT lovers, it is not acceptable, or very intelligent, to breed that out of them. Like I said, we already have them... AmStaffs, and (no offense to anyone with ASTs) IMO they arent anywhere near the dog the APBTs are.[/quote] That didn't really answer my question. I was not asking about breeding gameness out, that is a different debate. I'll ask again, are all non gamebred APBTs NECESSARILY human agressive? I mean, we know the game ones are not, but does that necessarily equate oppositely in the other direction? Yes there are bites to humans from "curs" but couldn't that be because they weren't even temprament tested ... the BYB factor? Also aren't the AmStaff and APBT very different breeds? I mean everyone who took the test you posted picked out the APBT adult from a lineup of 26 on the first try (except me, I got it on the sencond try) :oops: But still, I can point out an AmStaff versus an APBT. They look way different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 No, not all non-gamebred dogs are human aggressive, not all non gamebred pit bulls are human aggressive. But they are more likely to be so than a gamebred pit. Non-gamebred dogs would describe every breed but APBTs (and not all of them are). A lot of people claim APBTs and AmStaffs are the same breed. They are not. And it is usually Staffie owners who claim them to be. They are completely different breeds to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddysMom Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 [quote name='Hmmmm']No, not all non-gamebred dogs are human aggressive, not all non gamebred pit bulls are human aggressive. But they are more likely to be so than a gamebred pit. Non-gamebred dogs would describe every breed but APBTs (and not all of them are). A lot of people claim APBTs and AmStaffs are the same breed. They are not. And it is usually Staffie owners who claim them to be. They are completely different breeds to me.[/quote] Makes sense to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllAmericanPUP Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 [quote name='Hmmmm'][quote name='BuddysMom']Again bk I agree ... and the breed does not need to cease to exist. Just make sure you are breeding out human agression. They are a wonderful breed, my neighborhood has 3 sweet and gorgeous ones and I am sure that not one of them is "game tested".[/quote] Gamebred APBTs dont have problems with human aggression.[/quote] bullshizzle....there's a few man biters that were good fighters like garner's chinaman...he was a man biter yet still bred...ah yes bravo to the wonderful dogmen :roll: [url]http://www.sporting-dog.com/select-pages/chinamanstory.html[/url] i know there are more but i dont know the exact dogs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Chaos Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 [quote name='AllAmericanPUP'][quote name='Hmmmm'][quote name='BuddysMom']Again bk I agree ... and the breed does not need to cease to exist. Just make sure you are breeding out human agression. They are a wonderful breed, my neighborhood has 3 sweet and gorgeous ones and I am sure that not one of them is "game tested".[/quote] Gamebred APBTs dont have problems with human aggression.[/quote] bullshizzle....there's a few man biters that were good fighters like garner's chinaman...he was a man biter yet still bred...ah yes bravo to the wonderful dogmen :roll: [url]http://www.sporting-dog.com/select-pages/chinamanstory.html[/url] i know there are more but i dont know the exact dogs....[/quote] [url]http://www.sporting-dog.com/select-pages/indianbolio.html[/url] [quote]When in the corner he would scream with rage until he was released into the other dog. Occasionally, he would bite you if not released quick enough.[/quote] The above sounds like re-directed aggression, where the dog is so fired up it may bite blindedly. Still not acceptable for the breed though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Yeah there were plenty of man-biters that were bred. Not acceptable. A lot of the greats in the APBT bred dogs with human aggressive which is awful but they did produce some of the finest Ch and/or ROM dogs that supply the bloodlines for most of the dogs today. Anyway, dogmen have different standards for their dogs and for their practices in the pit. Some of them are idiots when it comes to matches. Some of them are idiots when it comes to breeding. While others have much higher standards and wont breed man-biters and will pick up their dog (in the pit) when they fear for their health. One of those people would be Hmmmm. I think a more correct statement would be that "Gamebred APBTs[i], that are bred correctly, usually[/i] dont have problems with human aggression. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 [quote]I think a more correct statement would be that "Gamebred APBTs, that are bred correctly, usually dont have problems with human aggression.[/quote] Non gamebred dogs of almost any breed, that are bred correctly, usually dont have problems with human aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__crazy_canine__ Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Good point, DP, and I completely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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