Debarking??

[nadooshkinz]

I'm sure there's been a post about this before,but I just saw this on the CBS news. Dog owners actually take their dogs in for a surgery called "debarking" in which the dog's vocal chords are cut, in order to soften his bark.
When I heard the poor Collie bark, I was sick to my stomach :evil:
How could someone do that to a dog!
Did anyone else catch the report? It terrifies me to think of ever doing something like that to my dog..
any thoughts?

[xavierandrea]

I would never do.... :evil:

[CincoandDahlilasgirl]

How rude! When we 1st got Cinco I thought he was debarked cuz he never barked for the 1st week we had him.

[JackieMaya]

Sometimes I wish Maya and Pooh Bear were debarked, but I could never imagine doing that to a dog. They're both getting better about the barking with their citronella collars. Dogs are SUPPOSED to bark, just not all the time. :wink:

[Horsefeathers!]

I saw that report. Now this is just me, but...

While I've never considered it, and will always do anything and everything in my power to train, restrain, and control my dogs, I think I might consider it if it meant losing my dog. I mean, I truly do agree that it's yet another mutilation that people do to dogs for the sake of convenience and other lame reasons. It's not something I'd ever consider as long as I had alternatives and, fortunately, I've always had alternatives. I've not had a dog yet that couldn't have its barking controlled.

However, on the report, one guy was hauled into court by his neighbor and the judge gave him a choice between debarking his dog or getting rid of the dog. There was no mention of an option for training, bark collars, keeping the dog inside 24/7 and walking only supervised on a leash, or any other alternative. The guy was court ordered to debark his dog or get rid of it. I imagine that if I were faced with those options, I'd consider it, albeit begrudgingly.

There is another family that was court ordered by that same judge to debark their three dogs or get rid of them. They are fighting him on it and have refused to do it. PETA sent the judge a letter and the judge is softening his view a bit, he says. I think the family is supposed to appear again before this judge at a later date to see what they have to do.

Anyway... again, I agree that it's mutilation and have always been fortunate/smart/whatever enough to control my barking dogs using other means. However, if I were faced with losing my dogs or my home and that were the ONLY option offered to me... I dunno. :oops:

The lady with the Shelties made me angry. She had FOUR of her dogs debarked and was really nonchalant about it as if it were no big deal. It really stuck out to me when she said something about it being a great alternative as a last resort. While I can kinda sorta see a point in that, how in the world did she need it as a last resort for FOUR dogs? I do think she did it as more of a convenience.

[AllAmericanPUP]

people who are court ordered to have their dogs debarked or get rid of them...they and the dogs wouldnt be in that situation if the people would have done something BEFORE pissing their neighbors off so bad that they took them to court. :evil:

[Horsefeathers!]

AAP, I totally agree. That's why I work so hard on controlling my dogs and will hopefully never be faced with a decision like that. That I know of, my neighbors have never complained of my dogs barking. However, the guy DID end up in court and was faced with the decision. It does suck that he didn't control it beforehand.

[kendalyn]

I guess I don't see it as such an awful thing. If there is no other alternative to keep the dog quiet when it needs to be, than I would probably do it.

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

If I were hauled to court facing the decision of either debarking my dog or getting rid of it (as cruel as it sounds) I'd find it a better home. IMO thats much better than having your dog debarked. Imagine how uncomfortable that must be. :x

[Crested]

Here's my experience. Dogs do NOT bark without a reason. If your dog barks.... Find the reason WHY he barks and deal with it instead of going straight to the vet for surgery.
Barking is one of the ways dogs comunicate, take that away and WOW how the dog will be misunderstood by other dogs!

I think debarking a dog is cruel and against everything I believe in. Sure Ben and Bella bark, sure I get annoyed sometimes because of it but NO I would never EVER debark them! EVER!!
If you're given the choice to either debark a dog or find another home, I'd say FIND ANOTHER HOME. No matter how you feel about it yourself and no matter how much you love your dog.

But this is just my oppinion and my beliefs.

[Canis erectus]

Alright, I'm going to advocate for satan on this one.

Before I start I'm going to say that I don't agree with debarking at all. A person who owns a problem barker should either comit to some training or move into a less populated neighborhood. Failing that, then perhaps the dog should be relocated to a proper home.

However... these solutions aren't the answere for every circumstance, and in those circumstances debarking is okay. I think the anti-debarking issue is taken a little out proportion. To hear some people talk it's the most cruel and inhumane thing you can do for your dog. While I don't typically agree with unnecessary surgery, debarking is a very simple procedure and most vets can do it even faster than they can neuter a cat. I don't really find debarking any more cruel (to use the commonly used adjective) than neutering.

Consider all the folks who regularly have small fatty cysts removed from their dogs. Is that any less cruel than a debark? If in fact the lump is diagnosed as a fatty cyst (very common), this sort of thing is totally benign and a dog doesn't notice or even care whether it's there or not. Sometimes a cyst will grow enormous, and at that point should be removedas they can become a burden to the poor dog. But the small cysts that get removed all the time are purely for asthetic reasons on the owner's behalf, in my book that's a totally unnecassary surgery.

I feel that the two biggest problems with debarking are...

One: That as stated before, many people will debark their dogs on whim. Which means that they are needlessly exposing their pet to surgery risks and also means that the owner is probably too lazy to properly care for a dog in the forst place.

Two: Debarking doesn't do the job reliably. I don't know any statistics but lots of times the procedure doesn't reduce the barking volume by a whole lot, and sometimes not at all.

Again, I'm not saying that debarking is necessarily okay, but I do think that it is misrepresented as one of the great evils of the modern world.

[DogPaddle]

Nice posts HF and CE.

I generally disagree with debarking but there are some circumstances were it might be appropriate so I can't say flat out that NO one should debark their dog EVER.
As for rehoming a dog before debarking - I suppose it would depend on the dog. Everytime rehoming is considered I like to look at it this way: "Would I prefer to suffer with X and stay with my family or be free of X and leave everyone I knew behind." Some dogs might cope well, some dogs are best off with their famalies, depends on the situation.

[Lucky Chaos]

Now don't get me wrong, I'd never do it. But how is de-barking worse then say, cropping? Both are surgeries that alter the dog. Both don't really have a purpose, dogs can be trained not to bark and cropping is only for looks. I don't agree with it, but if you are for cropping, then how can you say de-barking is cruel? Its natural for dogs to bark, but its also natural for a dog to have its ears.

[AllAmericanPUP]

I am 100% against cropping, docking, debarking, dew claw removal etc.
unless its for a medical reason

[kittygirl109]

Personally, I feel its as bad as declawing for a cat. Its unnatural. Its like cutting a person's vocal cords so they couldn't talk, except for a whisper.

(Hmmm...maybe I should do that for my brother...*just teasing*)

Its just cruel. Train them to bark less. Its just pure laziness(sp?).

[Crested]

Bella is dew-clawed. But I don't know if it really is dew-clawing or not... :? Her breeder removed her "thumbs" (don't know the real name for that one toe that's way higher up then all the others).
This I think is an ok thing. This was done directly after birth by a vet.
Ben has his "thumbs" and it's sometimes a pain. He's cracked the nail of one thumb a couple times and it's also more difficult to clip those two nails then the rest.
But removing all claws... that's a whole different ballgame.

And I'm with AAP. I'm totally agains cropping, docking, debarking etc.

[nadooshkinz]

[quote name='Horsefeathers!']
The lady with the Shelties made me angry. She had FOUR of her dogs debarked and was really nonchalant about it as if it were no big deal. It really stuck out to me when she said something about it being a great alternative as a last resort. While I can kinda sorta see a point in that, how in the world did she need it as a last resort for FOUR dogs? I do think she did it as more of a convenience.[/quote]
That woman absoloutely INFURIATED me! :evil: I highly doubt that debarking was a last resort in all 4 cases :roll:

[quote name='Canis erectus']Two: Debarking doesn't do the job reliably. I don't know any statistics but lots of times the procedure doesn't reduce the barking volume by a whole lot, and sometimes not at all. [/quote]
[quote]Q: Is the surgery always successful?

A: Sometimes scar tissue forms and heavy barkers will become louder than when first debarked. The skill of the veterinarian is also a factor. [/quote]
I also agree that while debarking may not be the most inhumane surgery out there, it seems like it is widely abused. I don't believe that every dog that has ever been debarked was led to that after:-
a)an attempt to train the dog not to bark.
b)some control of exposure to the stimuli(if any), causing the dog to bark.
c)the use of citronella bark collars,shock collars, or bark activated alarms.

[kendalyn]

[quote name='nadooshkinz']I also agree that while debarking may not be the most inhumane surgery out there, it seems like it is widely abused.[/quote]

Really? How many dogs do you personally KNOW that have been debarked?

While media hysteria would like you to believe debarking is widely abused, I highly doubt it is actually done that often. :roll: You can't believe everything you see on tv...

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[quote name='AllAmericanPUP']I am 100% against cropping, docking, debarking, dew claw removal etc.
unless its for a medical reason[/quote]
Me too. I can't imagine Rowie without her bark, its what makes her unique. I mean, why get a noisy dog (like a Beagle..which is unforunately a breed that is debarked a lot) or a dog at all if your going to debark it? This is just one of those things I can't change my mind on. I can't imagine having my voice reduced to just a whisper. I can see myself opening my mouth to talk and then only getting a whisper in return. How unfortable and scary would that be? Not to mention theres no one there to explain it to me (if I were a dog).

The way I see it, we're playing Mother Nature deciding how our dogs should look like and sound like. Unless its for health reasons, IMO, I wound't do it.

[JackieMaya]

[quote]Train them to bark less. Its just pure laziness(sp?)[/quote]

Of course I'm not even considering debarking, but because a dog is a barker doesn't mean the owner is lazy. I'm having a lot of trouble with Pooh Bear's barking now, and I'm working with him on it. He's kind of in sensory overload now in my big back yard with all the birds and squirrels. I don't think he's ever seen wildlife (or much of it) before.

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[quote name='kendalyn'][quote name='nadooshkinz']I also agree that while debarking may not be the most inhumane surgery out there, it seems like it is widely abused.[/quote]

Really? How many dogs do you personally KNOW that have been debarked?

While media hysteria would like you to believe debarking is widely abused, I highly doubt it is actually done that often. :roll: You can't believe everything you see on tv...[/quote]
What I think nadooshkinz meant was that when people are given the option, they abuse it. It seems to me that people use it as a first resort instead of a last one.

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[quote name='JackieMaya'][quote]Train them to bark less. Its just pure laziness(sp?)[/quote]

Of course I'm not even considering debarking, but because a dog is a barker doesn't mean the owner is lazy. I'm having a lot of trouble with Pooh Bear's barking now, and I'm working with him on it. He's kind of in sensory overload now in my big back yard with all the birds and squirrels. I don't think he's ever seen wildlife (or much of it) before.[/quote]
Your right, just because the dog is a barker does not mean the owner is lazy. But the difference is your trying to fix the problem, while others will go out and get them debarked without [b]trying training first[/b].
If all has failed, then you get your dog debarked. But I guess its the owners choice in the end. :wink:

[nadooshkinz]

[quote name='Rowie-the-Pooh'][quote name='kendalyn'][quote name='nadooshkinz']I also agree that while debarking may not be the most inhumane surgery out there, it seems like it is widely abused.[/quote]

Really? How many dogs do you personally KNOW that have been debarked?

While media hysteria would like you to believe debarking is widely abused, I highly doubt it is actually done that often. :roll: You can't believe everything you see on tv...[/quote]
What I think nadooshkinz meant was that when people are given the option, they abuse it. It seems to me that [b]people use it as a first resort instead of a last one[/b].[/quote]
That was my point exactly. And while were on that, the media "hysteria" focuses more on promoting debarking.
But anyways, my reason for saying that was based on what I've read and researched, I don't believe everything I see on tv-don't worry I'm not that naiive :wink:
And to answer you're question, I don't personally know any dogs that have been debarked, only because its against the law here.

[Canis erectus]

[quote=The way I see it, we're playing Mother Nature deciding how our dogs should look like and sound like. Unless its for health reasons, IMO, I wound't do it.[/quote]

The whole tinkering around with Mother Nature is kind of a moot point don't you think? I mean the basis of selective dog breeding is outside of nature's design, there are only a hanfull of breeds out there that have any sort of a natural morphology. Just look at Bulldogs for a prime example, an animal that cannot regularly give birth unassisted is far far from anything natural.

I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just raising the point that there are better reasons not to have unnecessary surgery performed on your pet. A better reason is to not increase exposure to anestesia risks.

On a side note, back home in Calif we had a client who came to our clinic to have his dogs debarked. He bred beagles, and I don't know that you could call him a mill breeder because I think think he kept more puppies than he sold. Anyway about once or twice a year he would come in to have a handful of puppies debarked. A shame really, the dogs weren't problem barkers, the guy just wanted to save himsalf the trouble of having the possibility of loud beagles. The vet I worked for was by far the best in the area (outside UC Davis), but he could be rather unscrupulous at times.

[nadooshkinz]

[quote name='Canis erectus'][quote=The way I see it, we're playing Mother Nature deciding how our dogs should look like and sound like. Unless its for health reasons, IMO, I wound't do it.[/quote]

[b]The whole tinkering around with Mother Nature is kind of a moot point don't you think? I mean the basis of selective dog breeding is outside of nature's design, there are only a hanfull of breeds out there that have any sort of a natural morphology. Just look at Bulldogs for a prime example, an animal that cannot regularly give birth unassisted is far far from anything natural.[/b]

I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just raising the point that there are better reasons not to have unnecessary surgery performed on your pet. A better reason is to not increase exposure to anestesia risks.

[b]On a side note, back home in Calif we had a client who came to our clinic to have his dogs debarked. He bred beagles, and I don't know that you could call him a mill breeder because I think think he kept more puppies than he sold. Anyway about once or twice a year he would come in to have a handful of puppies debarked. A shame really, the dogs weren't problem barkers, the guy just wanted to save himsalf the trouble of having the possibility of loud beagles. The vet I worked for was by far the best in the area (outside UC Davis), but he could be rather unscrupulous at times[/b].[/quote]
That's sort of what I meant about people abusing it..
And I completely agree about the "tinkering with mother nature" issue. But I think what was meant was that debarking sort of tinkers with dogs in general's true nature. Dogs are MEANT to bark.. no matter the breed's authenticity