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Daisysmom

Electronic Collar?

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Has anyone trained their dog with an electronic collar and trainer? If so, I would like some of your feedback. This is not (to my knowledge) a shock collar. It was tested on me and it did not shock me. Frankly, I was dead set against it until I felt it. It is more of a sensation of your foot falling asleep; a pins and needles feeling if you will.

Any response - good or bad is welcomed!!

Thanks-
by the way, I am thinking of this for Jake. He is so high energy and hard to train - to get his attention.

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I have never used one on my own dogs....but I have been around people who have used them.

Well, not just 'people' like your everyday people. These were K9 trainers.

I used to train with them when I lived in the Cleveland area. And E-collars were used on these dogs in much of the training.

I wish I could be of more help. But I have never used them myself. I have always done most of my training with treats/toys/praise/playtime/just general rewards so I really can't tell you how the E-collar works from start to finish.

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Here are some articles that you might be interested in (below). I have never used one but have thought about it. I have seen an ecollar do miracles for someone I know with a dog aggressive GSD. He is very well behaved around other dogs now, no more barking and lunging on the leash.
I would find a good trainer that could teach you how to use it properly and don't buy a cheap ecollar. (Tritronics is a good one.) The one reason I haven't really pursed an ecollar with Magic for her dog aggression is because she is hummm how to put it, has weak nerves and is mentally unstable normally so I wouldn't want to make the slightest mistake and screw her up anymore than she already is. Having said that I don't know if that could happen with an ecollar, I have never put much effort into researching them...


[url]http://www.finographics.com/schutzhund/obedience/ecollarwork.html[/url]

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oh geeze please don't resort to an electronic collar. They cause all sorts of behavioural problems along with alterations in brain behaviour that can lead to epilepsy. That shock you felt? try magnifying about 100 fold and that is what your dog will feel. A dogs perception of feeling is much stronger than a humans.

The kennel club is currently investigating 2 dog clubs in England that are using them as they are banned here. Dogs learn much easier when there is a strong bond between handler and dog that can be created by having a give and take relationship, through positive and motivational training. Forced training through a choke chain or electronic shocking collar is no way to train in my opinion.

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[quote]That shock you felt?[/quote]
I couldn't feel anything for some time..... I was expecting a SHOCK, but it really wasn't. The trainer adopted out a vicious rottie and has made great strides with her in only a week. I was a skeptic too unitl I witnessed her with her dogs and mine.... I really don't know what to think. I was DEAD SET AGAINST IT unitl I witnessed the training and felt the stimulation.
Kat, do you have any readings/links on the epilepsy regarding this type of training? Also, NOT to question you, but how do you know, in all honesty, how a dog feels the stimulation? Seriously.... do you have anything I can read on it????? I really don't want to hurt him!!!

Thanks MajiesMom for your articles.

Thanks!!!

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I tried an electronic collar on Maya when she first started jumping the fence, and for barking. It didn't help for either problem, and I think it just pissed her off more than anything. I personally wouldn't use it again on any dog. I don't like the idea of them.

For Maya's barking I got a citronella spray collar that works great (and it smells good too!). For the fence jumping I cable her when she's in the back yard.

Good luck!

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I read articles printed in veterinary journals about electronic shock collars causing epilepsy in dogs, but I don't have the articles. I will have a look through the archives of some scientific journals and see if i can dig anything up. :wink:

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Here is an exert from research that focussed on dogs (GSD's) trained using the electronic shock collar. My access is limited to the scientific sites and archives now that I'm not at uni, so I can't pull up the whole article unfortunately.

[quote]Training dogs with help of the shock collar: short and long term behavioural effects
Matthijs B. H. Schilder, , a, b and Joanne A. M. van der Borga

Abstract
Behavioural effects of the use of a shock collar during guard dog training of German shepherd dogs were studied. Direct reactions of 32 dogs to 107 shocks showed reactions (lowering of body posture, high pitched yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirection aggression, tongue flicking) that suggest stress or fear and pain. Most of these immediate reactions lasted only a fraction of a second. The behaviour of 16 dogs that had received shocks in the recent past (S-dogs) was compared with the behaviour of 15 control dogs that had received similar training but never had received shocks (C-dogs) in order to investigate possible effects of a longer duration. Only training sessions were used in which no shocks were delivered and the behaviour of the dogs (position of body, tail and ears, and stress-, pain- and aggression-related behaviours) was recorded in a way that enabled comparison between the groups. During free walking on the training grounds S-dogs showed a lower ear posture and more stress-related behaviours than C-dogs. During obedience training and during manwork (i.e. excercises with a would-be criminal) the same differences were found. Even a comparison between the behaviour of C-dogs with that of S-dogs during free walking and obedience exercises in a park showed similar differences. Differences between the two groups of dogs existed in spite of the fact that C-dogs also were trained in a fairly harsh way. A comparison between the behaviour during free walking with that during obedience exercises and manwork, showed that during training more stress signals were shown and ear positions were lower. The conclusions, therefore are, that being trained is stressful, that receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs, and that the S-dogs evidently have learned that the presence of their owner (or his commands) announces reception of shocks, even outside of the normal training context. This suggests that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at stake, at least in the presence of their owner.

Author Keywords: Dog; Training; Stress; Welfare; Shock collar

[/quote]

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Thanks Kat! I have been thinking about this a lot! I can get on our library page from home, so I'll see if I can find more too. I didn't like his initial reaction to the stimulation, he looked very scared.... but the trainer said "startled" so she is the one certifed her link is: dogsandtheircompanions.com She seems very qualifed, but one thing I did NOT like was this was the only training method she offered us :-?

Thanks for the abstract!! I know he was fearful, but I am still looking for "danger" signs or long-term affects. I will look into more research too.

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Guest Anonymous
Used properly E collars are MUCH more humane that conventional slip (choke chain) or pinch collars.... The great thing about the E collar is that you give the dog the opportunity to do the correct behavior (ie sit) and if the dog fails to respond then not you but "God" corrects the dog! So you tell the dog what to do to prevent the correction but in the dogs eyes you did not cause the correction to occur :)
Different trainers I've seen use E collars differently... some use the stimulation as a correction to a command the dog already knows. Others use it to actually teach the dog (ie SIT and the stimulation comes on and stays on until the dog sits , even if the handler has to phyically place the dog in a sit).
My STRONG suggestion is to contact FRED HASSAN who in my opinion is the best E collar dude out there today... I think his website is [url]www.sitstay.com[/url] but i'm not certain. His name on yahoo search will most likely bring up a great deal of things. I had the pleasure of attending an informal seminar at a Malinois Handler Gathering several years ago... [url]www.malinoishandler.com[/url] and got to see some of his methods and what the results are... I was thrilled
i have a dobie bitch and I use both an E collar and a clicker with her so I have a Definate YES and NO with her. Everything is clear. . . communication is SOOOOOO important in dog training. My dog does not Fear her E collar and I'm thankful for it :)

You can email me privately if youd like and I can share some more info/stories.

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Go to Lou Castle's website, he is by far one of the best e-collar trainers out there.

[quote]he looked very scared.... but the trainer said "startled"[/quote]

Daisysmom, run from that trainer, she used the stim waaayyyy to high! And that is precisely what gives the e-collar a bad name :x , people who do not know how to use one. My own dogs were proofed on the e-collar, and you've never seen two dogs so happy to work, because as the other poster said, they couldn't be clearer with the direction they have been given. I studied for a long time under an excellent trainer to be able to use one properly, it took me months to perfect the timing (on a dummy, not a real dog), and under the correct circumstances and used the right way, it can be an invaluable tool in training.

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I still don't know if I'm going to use one on Pooh Bear for his barking when he's outside. I'm taking him outside on a retractable leash until he gets his stitches out from his surgery. I'm hoping that he'll see something that will make him bark so that I can correct him when he's on the leash. But so far, of course, he hasn't barked.

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Hi Everyone:

I do not know is a shock can damage a dog or not. I do know that they use shock treatment on people and in some cases it helps? But I am not a doctor or a vet so I will not talk too much on these matters.

My feeling, however, is this. I believe that most behaviour problems in dogs has everything to with dog owners. The simple fact is that we still think it is cute to spoil dogs, ignore dogs, fail to run dogs... (the list goes I) I believe that when we make a hundred little mistakes these mistakes BLOW UP and become terrible problems. It is a shame that dogs need to be shocked because we have let them down as dog owners. I think that our canine friends, if they are our friends, should be treated with the utmost of respect and understanding. Does this mean we always need to be happy and positve? No. However, it does mean that we should try harder to get to the root of behaviour problems without resorting to training methods that lack grace. Tell me, what is less graceful then shocking an animal?

If you can remember back to the first time you saw your puppy, what were you thinking? Shock! Of course not, you were thinking LOVE, that is why you became your dogs care giver. Although it will be hard at times, as human beings we must stride towards kindness and grace at all times, even if that means it takes ten times as long to train your dog.

IF YOU CAN,,, not, I say "if" because I dare not pass judgement on anyone and there situation, but If you can avoid shocking your dog, then avoid it. Why? Because it is not in keeping with who most dog owners think of being when they consider themselves as loving pet owners.

Laurie
[url]www.puppywishes.com[/url]

A Puppy's Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Waste.

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ammm good or bad how to tell this?
i have somthing strongly against this collar, i relly hate him, i can agree if it relly nessesery to put a prong collar but the electric one is another story.
but i know for what they can be more than very usefull espesialy if you working with a peotection dog who work on urben place and a mistake is not an option when your dog working far away from you.
i think the use with this collar should be cerafull considered to the both ends before you try to use him. i alredy saw what inresposible training to unfit kind of a dog can do. in the end the dog was perfectly trained but mantaly he was a mass

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Hi Irena:

You started to point out something very important. It is possible to train a dog to do things, but mess up it's mind in the process. In the end you end up with a freaked out, but well trained dog.

This may be a great area of chat....

But - I am off to walk my dog,,,, (to be continued)

Laurie
[url]www.puppywishes.com[/url]

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The shock collar works well on some dogs, not on others. If used on the "correct" dog and used properly, the shock collar is no more inhumane than any other training tool. I have grown up with four dogs that were trained on the collar since puppy hood. None has suffered any ill effects (the one dog is over 10 years old), the collars are set very low, and do not hurt the dogs at all. If used incorrectly, YES, the collar is inhumane. Isn't it like this with any training tool? Like I said earlier though, the collar is not right for every dog. Some dogs are fine with it, others freak out over it. It's a matter of trial and error, and knowing what your dog will (or won’t) respond to.

FYI, I would never recommend the shock, prong, choke, or other such collar for a novice trainer. These types of tools, although they can do wonders for some dogs, can be abused and misused VERY easily by inexperienced owners. Unfortunately, this is part of what gives these collars such a bad rep--too many people just don't know how to use them properly, or they think it will automatically transform ANY dog it is put on.

~Seij

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My dog is a bit unruly too :-? . No formal training or attention the first few months of his life in a run down foster home. He is in school now and catching on, getting better. Just like people sometimes one being requires more discipline than the other. For this reason he will take two obedience courses. Have you considered enrolling him twice to learn commands and establish the relationship before resorting to this? I'm giving up every Tuesday for the next 5 or 6 months but it will be worth it in the next 10 years! Some people go for a few hours, a few weeks or a several months. He may have attention problems or get excited easily that slows down the process.

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[quote]I'm giving up every Tuesday for the next 5 or 6 months[/quote]

if you look at it like this these will be the longest 6 months of your life! bonding with and training your pets should be fun for both of you. what kind of training are you doing? clicker? postive reinforcement? jerk and pull (nag and drag as i like to call it)? if it's not fun for you the dog is not gonna have fun either. just a little tidbit -- 2 training classes does not a trained dog make -- in other words you will train your dog for the rest of his life in one way or another. he is just a puppy of course his attention span is small. keep your training sessions short (3-5 minutes) and train 4-5 times a day. anytime you see your pup is an opportunity to train. sit for petting. sit for food bowl. down for frisbee etc. you're not giving up time --you are investing time!

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