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kendalyn

Best Breeder?

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I'm watching the Eukaneuba Championships right now and they just awarded the prize for breeder of the year. They also did a little story about the woman who won it last year. Her name is Mary Rodgers and she breeds Dobermans. She said that she has bred over 150 champions! So how many dogs has she actually bred that weren't champions? Does that sound like a ton of dogs to anybody else? :o

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I am not going to judge, but I believe that a good breeder works for the betterment of the breed. they cant all be ring champions, but if the have good certs, good lines, and good personalities, I will praise her for this.
I realize it doesnt help the shelter dogs, but maybe if more people bought from good breeders, there would be less dogs in the shelters. just my take. training for new owners should be a requirement as well. I would like to see the breeders demanding this on sales.

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Would all of those 150 have been from dogs that she actually bred herself? Say she sold a lot of her puppies to show homes and they became champions, then the new owners bred from them and the puppies in turn became champions and so on... would they still be considered part of her breeding program??? If she was thinking like that then I guess 150 is not such a big number.

If she had bred and shown all 150 herself then yes that sounds like a hell of a lot.

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I wouldn't consider champion conformation show dogs to be evidence that you have a good breeder. I have seen the worst genetic disasters become Champions...hey, I have one at home right now, a champion in 3 countries Canada, USA and Bermuda. Do I think his breeders are doing a great thing...no I don't.
The only good breeders are ones who are bettering the breed as Courtnek already mentioned. A good breeder is one who gets titles on their dogs such as agility, obedience and other sports perhaps breed specific.
I don't see too often in the dog show world where they are bettering the breed at all. All I see are people breeding for "pretty" dogs or dogs that are so disfigured its disgusting. Do I respect many of these breeders who show for champions...no, I don't.
I think breeders need to open their eyes up and see the whole picture and start trying to breed for better dogs...instead of pretty or highly visible dogs. Perhaps even crossbreeding to better their breed. I would love to see the Newf's restored back to their original wonderful working selves. I have 3 at home that would drown if they fell off into deep water. A Newf is supposed to be able to swim :roll:
To get a championship title on your dog is a joke...very very simple. It's who you know and what lines your dog has behind it. Every one I know always gets championship titles not their dogs with no problem at all. It's also depends on who is handling the dog.

I'll just give you some thing to think about...if you watched a conformation show with "show" German Shepherds and one lady was getting Championship titles left right and center...would you think she was a GREAT breeder "because" she was winning the titles...or would you think she was a GREAT breeder because she is breeding for dog's which are so overly angulated that they are disabled?
The overly angulated Shepherds is what is winning in the conformation shows. These Shepherds would never make good working dogs...I couldn't imagine using any of these champions for working. If used for police work you would have to shot the robber in the legs to allow the Shepherd to catch him. :roll:
I have also witnessed wonderful reputable breeders destroying many other breeds including Dobermans. They are breeding for beauty...a beauty pageant does not prove the dogs are any good at all.

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I know Mary - and yes, she's got a lot of champions to her name. She's a very down-to-earth person and has a good head on her shoulders. Do I agree with everything she does? No, but no one is perfect.

I'm sure that 150 champions includes co-breedings. It's fairly easy to be a cobreeder, and that might account for the large number of champions. And Corrie is right - she's been in the breed for a looooong time. If you pread it out, that averages about 4 champions per year.

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Especially if you factor in that breeders back in the 60's and 70's didn't have all the testing and knowledge that we have available now and bred a lot more. Breeding was fairly different back then. The process for responsible breeders in the intervening years has changed drastically.

And Cassie, this isn't a debate on how show breeders have "ruined all the breeds". We all know your stance on these things, so for just once, could we have a thread that relates to show dogs where you don't come in and slam on it?( IE the show world) Could you PLEASE just chill out for a bit? I don't mean to be curt, but I do find it fairly offensive. About as offensive as a mixed breed owner constantly hearing that mutts aren't good enough and will never compare to purebreds. I realize that everyone here is entitled to their opinons and free to express them, but if someone was saying comparable things about mixed breeds and rescue there would be a riot. It is just as offensive to me ( and I'm sure many of the other purebred fanciers here ) to see posts like that everytime ( well maybe not EVERY time, but often) when dog shows are brought up.

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[quote name='Hillside']Especially if you factor in that breeders back in the 60's and 70's didn't have all the testing and knowledge that we have available now and bred a lot more. Breeding was fairly different back then. The process for responsible breeders in the intervening years has changed drastically.[/quote]

That doesn't make it right! Backyard Breeding is pretty popular and accepted by a large number of people but that doesn't make it any less horrible. If Rodgers has changed her ways and has stoppped overbreeding, then that's great. But it doesn't make what she did in the past OK.

[quote name='Cassie']To get a championship title on your dog is a joke...very very simple.[/quote]

This is exactly what I thought when I heard that she had bred 150 champions. How hard can it be if she did it 150 times!?

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a dog being a champion IS a joke..no offense to anyone.

but i have seen people champion their dogs in just 2 or 3 shows..so sad..

showing is all politics.

I dont even want to see how most show dogs are kept at home..poor dogs.

If I were to buy a dog from a breeder(wich i wont) i would buy from straight up working lines.

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well, the whole show vs. conformation is a debate thats gone on forever. I personally believe that NO dog should be bred for a specific "look", or a specific "traint" (while leaving other necessary traits out) and I agree with the UK's stance that a dog should be able to pass both a working and a conformation title to be best in show. Now thats me, but I am old world and think that all of these dogs, as pretty as they are, should be able to do at least minimally what they were originally bred to do. that was their purpose, after all. GSD's are a good example. they bred them so slope-backed in the last few years that I seriously doubt they could do a real herding job. Guarding, maybe, but originally they were bred to both guard AND herd....the shepherd I saw in this show gave me hope. He wasnt nearly as slpoe-backed as some of the ones i have seen previously, which maybe means they are getting away from that breeding pattern. as far as the award, without more facts I couldnt honestly judge her and say she is or is not breeding for the betterment of the breed. over 40 years, 150 dogs doesnt sound like a lot. If you figure one litter a year, five pups per litter, thats 200 dogs, and most breeders have more than one litter a year. It doesnt sound too terribly outrageous.

I guess I'd like to see more facts before I decide on an opinion.

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AKC and UKC judge on looks and looks alone..i dont care what anyone says.
why do you think they care so much about the ears and tails.
just looks.

ADBA(pittys) on the otherhand judge on how a dog is built for performance.
they dont care about the dogs ears, you can have droopy ears, cropped ears, crazy ears, rose ears, any ears.
they judge on the dogs body and how the dog is built, and if he has a sound body for working, etc.

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Guest Mutts4Me
Before the show yesterday, they had an hour-long introduction that spotlighted some breeders and dogs, basically showing people the steps it takes to get to the National Championship.

They followed a couple who had I believe four or five dogs, three of which they took to last year's National Championship. All were different breeds!! That was so cool, and different than what I'm used to seeing (a kennel of one breed). Before they left, they showed the dogs all getting groomed in the backyard, then loaded into the motorhome, etc. The guy showed his Bull Mastiff, which won BOB, and the woman showed her Portugese Water Dog, which won BOB. They didn't say which of the other dogs showed, just that it didn't make BOB and move on (I also saw a Boston and a Sheltie in their backyard). It was so neat though, that these "normal" people and their odd mix of dogs, just happened to have two BOBs running around in their back yard. Plus the two are in the same group, so husband and wife were competing against each other.

They also followed a couple other dogs, including a Doberman named Repo Man, who had the run of the house. A very nice house, at that :)

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now someone from the UK correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt I hear on this forum that the UK requires both working ability and conformation ability? or am I hallucinating? I thought for SURE someone pointed that out here once...

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Guest Mutts4Me
[quote name='courtnek']now someone from the UK correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt I hear on this forum that the UK requires both working ability and conformation ability? or am I hallucinating? I thought for SURE someone pointed that out here once...[/quote]

Someone did say that here once, I distinctly remember that. I don't remember who it was, though. I think it's a brilliant idea!

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[quote name='AllAmericanPUP']a dog being a champion IS a joke..no offense to anyone.

but i have seen people champion their dogs in just 2 or 3 shows..so sad..[/quote]


I don't see why it is sad if a dog finishes fast, a lot of dogs are VERY nice and deserve it.


[quote]showing is all politics.[/quote]


There IS an element of that, I won't deny it. But, a good deal of judges do what they are supposed to do, look at the DOG.


[quote]I dont even want to see how most show dogs are kept at home..poor dogs.[/quote]


Unfortunately, a lot are kept 24/7. I've been to the homes of people who keep dogs like that. It makes me sick :cry:


[quote]If I were to buy a dog from a breeder(wich i wont) i would buy from straight up working lines.[/quote]


Here is the dog I'm taking into the show ring for the first time next weekend...

[img]http://odnarb.com/harryfront.jpg[/img]

[img]http://odnarb.com/harrystacksidesm.jpg[/img]

He's pretty, I don't think I'll have any problem finishing him. Despite the fact that he was not bred for the show ring :wink:

[img]http://odnarb.com/harrybite01.jpg[/img]

[img]http://odnarb.com/harrybite02.jpg[/img]

[img]http://odnarb.com/hlegsleeve110704.jpg[/img]



[quote]AKC and UKC judge on looks and looks alone..i dont care what anyone says.
why do you think they care so much about the ears and tails.
just looks.

ADBA(pittys) on the otherhand judge on how a dog is built for performance.
they dont care about the dogs ears, you can have droopy ears, cropped ears, crazy ears, rose ears, any ears.
they judge on the dogs body and how the dog is built, and if he has a sound body for working, etc.[/quote]


Looks IS judging on structure. It's one and the same, they just have different standards.

This is the only 2 time (1999 & 2000) UKC National Grand Champion winner ever. Check out these wonky ears :D

[img]http://www.napbta.com/2000ntlgrch.jpg[/img]

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[quote name='kendalyn'][quote name='Hillside']Especially if you factor in that breeders back in the 60's and 70's didn't have all the testing and knowledge that we have available now and bred a lot more. Breeding was fairly different back then. The process for responsible breeders in the intervening years has changed drastically.[/quote]

That doesn't make it right! Backyard Breeding is pretty popular and accepted by a large number of people but that doesn't make it any less horrible. If Rodgers has changed her ways and has stoppped overbreeding, then that's great. But it doesn't make what she did in the past OK. [/quote]

Que? Come again? I don't get what your saying at all. If she was practicing the breeding standard at the time (60's 70's) you can't compair that to now. She shouldn't be penalized for what she did 40 years ago now. That's like arresting you now for stealing candy at age 5. And I don't see any hard evidence that she was a BYB or overbreeding. As other people said it's not impossible to have 150 Championships in 40 years especally if she co-owned them. 150 Champions does not equal 150 dogs that she breed.

Oh and Odnarb can I have that dog?? PLEASE?! His face is sooo cute! :D

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The 150 champions could easily have come from generations of dogs that her dogs may have sired. Yes some show people do overbreed and there was a classic case in the UK a few years back when a Crufts judge was found in possession of over 80 dogs and additionally cruelty charges were made against her. In the UK dogs who are shown that fall into working/pastoral/gundog groups do better if they have working ability therefore a nick or cut from the dog being caught on gorse etc will be taken into account, but it will not go against the dog when judging its appearance. This is the story of the Gatheral case:

[quote]Top Crufts judge Caroline Gatheral has been convicted of causing unnecessary suffering to 83 dogs at her home in County Durham.

Gatheral, 65, who judged this year

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[quote]Cassie wrote:
To get a championship title on your dog is a joke...very very simple. [/quote]

not including imported champions there are only 14 shar-pei champions in the UK of Shar-Pei
I find this thread offencive you are judgeing people you do not know
If you don't like conformation why watch it?

[quote][color=red]now someone from the UK correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt I hear on this forum that the UK requires both working ability and conformation ability? or am I hallucinating? I thought for SURE someone pointed that out here once...[/color][/quote]
no untrue Kat got involved in a team thing at Crufts but that was for the class she was it

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[quote name='odnarb'][quote name='AllAmericanPUP']a dog being a champion IS a joke..no offense to anyone.

but i have seen people champion their dogs in just 2 or 3 shows..so sad..[/quote]


I don't see why it is sad if a dog finishes fast, a lot of dogs are VERY nice and deserve it.[/quote]

i'm talkin about people who take their dogs to small shows where they are only competing against maybe one other dog, sometimes not even another dog so they win automatically.

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[quote name='AllAmericanPUP']there is a country that does require the dogs be showed and worked...cant remember wich country though[/quote]

In most FCI countries working dogs require a working test to become champions, and all working breeds require a working test to become international champions. I think that this is a very good thing and should be used more extensively (sp?) so breeds that were bread for a purpose have to show that they not only look the way the breed is supposed to look but they can also work, a border collie can not become an international champion if it can't herd.

We can also take a look at a breed the AKC breeders are ruining, the GSD, in Germany, there is a show of shows for the GSD, only shepherds and no other breeds, called the Bundessieger or Siegershow. To be able to participate there a dog has to be both correctly built and be able to work, and they begin by testing the work, and if the dog does not pass that he can not get into the conformation evaluation. This I think is a very good way of jugding dogs of working breeds.

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[quote name='zheelah']We can also take a look at a breed the AKC breeders are ruining, the GSD, in Germany, there is a show of shows for the GSD, only shepherds and no other breeds, called the Bundessieger or Siegershow. To be able to participate there a dog has to be both correctly built and be able to work, and they begin by testing the work, and if the dog does not pass that he can not get into the conformation evaluation. This I think is a very good way of jugding dogs of working breeds.[/quote]


Very true, but even in Germany, there is a split between TRUE working bred dogs and show (high) lines. The show lines do have working titles, SCHIII on the males and SCHI on the bitches. These dogs still don't have the fire that the true working dogs do. It's still a MUCH better plan than we have here in the US, but there is even a split, there.

I looked at GSDs very seriously, and one of the reasons I got a Malinois was because I wanted a working dog that I could still show. There IS a split between show/working Malinois, but it's not so great that I have no hope. In years to come, the story may be a different one.

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[quote name='StarFox']She shouldn't be penalized for what she did 40 years ago now. And I don't see any hard evidence that she was a BYB or overbreeding. .[/quote]

Of course she should! There is no statute of limitations on doing something horrible. Even if breeding 50 litters a year was considered acceptable back then, it doesn't mean it's OK if she was doing it. It means she was as bad as everybody else and should be help accountable.

[quote name='StarFox']That's like arresting you now for stealing candy at age 5.[/quote]

Unless she actually was breeding dogs at the age of 5, it's not the same thing. My guess is she was an adult and should be held accountable whether it happened 40 years ago or 6 months ago.

[quote name='StarFox']As other people said it's not impossible to have 150 Championships in 40 years especally if she co-owned them. 150 Champions does not equal 150 dogs that she breed[/quote]

Co-owning and Co-breeding is not any different than if she owned the dogs outright and bred them. If she co-owned a dog and allowed it to be bred than she is at least partly responsible for that litter. If she is counting dogs she co-owned in the 150 total, then she is responsible for breeding them as well. You can't have it both ways.

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[quote]I dont even want to see how most show dogs are kept at home..poor dogs. [/quote]

If you've never seen it, please don't judge it. I've seen lots of show dogs and how they live - IMO most live like ordinary dogs, and many live like kings and queens. I know some that have their own Winnebagos for showing, their own rooms... many show people go overboard in their care for their show dogs!

All I'm going to say is that Mary is a good person and doens't overbreed. She's been in the breed for many many years, and it's not surprising that she's finished so many dogs. She's got the money to do it, as well as the quality.

Dobermans have large litters. Why, Ilsa's sire came from a litter of five, and all five of those dogs are champions. My breeder has bred many many many champions and Top Twenty dogs. She also bred the test dog for the DPCA's working aptitude test. She's also been int he breed for around 40 years. I don't know how many champions she's bred, but she's just been able to finish a lot of dogs. Last year alone she finished 11 dogs - some co-owned, some co-bred. So, if you take those [i]two[/i] years (last year and the year of Ilsa's sire) that's at least 16 champions - about 1/10 of Mary's record achieved in two years.

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[quote name='SizzleDog'][quote]I dont even want to see how most show dogs are kept at home..poor dogs. [/quote][/quote]

the thing is, is I have seen it.
alot are kept it kennels 24/7 and only cared for when it's time to show.
alot of em dont even know what a dang toy is...that's just sad

I know there are show people out there who do care about their dogs and their dogs are treated like royalty, but there are just as many who do the exact opposite.

too many people only show for the "fame"

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