opinions on this method please

[Baileysmom]

the other day I was talking with a friend and she said her trainer friend told her about a method to deal with dominance issues and barking, etc...
she said you turn the dog over on his back and get above and hold until he makes eye contact with you........
(DAL, kinda reminds me of that person we saw at the canine fest, but this lady is much more gentle)
my first instinct is it sounds "mean", or atleast negative, but then its not doing anything to "hurt"...........?? so Im wondering, have you guys heard of this, tried it, have any opinions on it??
I dont like to do "negative things" if I can avoid it, but nothing else has helped baileys barking and her "pouncing" at the door going ballistic when someone comes - Im startting to wonder if this might be worth trying :(

[3ofakind]

sounds like an alpha roll. they can be effective with the right dog. try it with one of my jacks and you might loose your nose! :D

[pyrless]

i wouldn't mess with it. please remember that the submissive dog always [i]initiates[/i] the submissive body posture. no alpha dog would ever physically force a belly-up posture like that.

[imported_nea]

I don't like it... Seen it done once. The dog (or, puppy more like- she was like 5-6 months old!) was obiously insecure, and barking/growling and would stop, and her owner finally forced the poor thing on its back. It was horrible to see, and I doubt it was the least bit effective. Thats (thankfully) my only experience with the method, and perhaps it might work for some dogs, I don't know. But its definatly not something I'd do to my dog! :(

[imported_Kat]

The alpha roll is an old style method still used by nutters who think that dogs still must be treated like a low level "thing" and not a dog. Its dangerous and shouldn't be used. That buck eejit Fennell uses it in her Dog whisperer" book :roll: When I work with a dominant dog I try to level with it. If the dog is forced into a position of "forced submission" he will stick his paw up at me and say Feck you in his doggy language. If on the other hand I can try and reason with the dog and he agrees to play by my rules if I allow him a little freedom then I find that it works so much better. Think of it like 2 people. A dominant person being shouted at and bullied by someone less er but trying to make a statement will just laugh at the lesser person. I prefer to think of training in terms of mutual respect and to not use the whole "alpha pack law" anymore.

[Baileysmom]

Thanks you guys - I knew I didnt like the sound of it, but couldnt "put my finger on it" and didnt know enough about it to know why :oops:
I dont see Bailey biting or peeing on us with it, but Id rather not be proven wrong either! :lol: Im still not sure if her issue is one of dominance or fear (or something else) she goes to the door with her tail wagging and a bark that sounds ferocious! (and with some people, who I dont like either :oops: , she will look like she would attack: snarling, barking, etc ) If there are other people home its easier to control she will go in another room and "semi listen" enough to go into a down stay while someone else answers the door, but if Im alone she barely listens to my commands. maybe its mostly my problem because I dont feel like I can leave the person at the door and therefore try to deal with both at once when I actually shoudl be taking the time to take her away and calmly put her in a down stay or something before even trying to deal with the door.... hmmmmm

[ESSlover]

With Carson we do "settle" where when we say it he has to just lay down at our feet. To train it we just kinda hold his leash/collar like 2-3 inches above the ground, until he stops figiting. Maybe that would work? I kinda just skimmed through you're post, just got home from school and dont feel like reading again :lol:

[pyrless]

i use the crate if someone is coming in that the big dogs don't know, not because they are mean or whatever, just to give them a chance to settle down.
For the longest time I was trying to figure out how to get Sasha (our Pyr) to stop barking at the outside from in the house. I trid "That's enough" (which worked for awhile) "Settle down", "Lie down", all this fancy crap. One day, I told her "No". Lo and behold, it works like a charm! She already knows what "No" means, and now she gets one bark and comes over to me. Humans are such nonsense chitter-chatterers! :P

[Queen Bitch]

I think there are far better, safer ways of proving dominance to dog that is too big for its britches, like NILF.

[Seijun]

The "alpha role" as it is called, is best used on puppies, and only in extreme situations such as if a young pup is seriously challenging your authority and nothing alse seems to be working at the moment. It can also be done on adult dogs, but again, ONLY in extreme situations and only on a dog that you have raised and that you have performed the manuever on before. Using an alpha role on an adult dog can be dangerous, but it CAN be done, if done correctly. It should be done gently though, and NOT on a daily basis or as a regular training method. I have seen my adult dog use the roll about four times on two different puppies and YES, they know perfectly well what it means. Some dogs may not, but most will. The problem with the alpha role is not that the dog won't understand it, the problem is that not many PEOPLE understand how to use it. It is not a style used by "nutters", Kat, it is the dog's own language, and one that they understand. And yes, an alpha dog will sometimes FORCE another into an alpha role. Again, the alpha role is only for extreme situations, on a dog that is clearly misbehaving even when warned and when it aught to know better. Unfortunately, this move is often misunderstood and misused, which in turn has given it a bad rap. The alpha role is not "evil", "cruel", "old-fashioned", or any of the other names so often attached to it. I used it once on a puppy who was refusing to listen, and being a total brat. One role and he behaved perfectly the rest of the day. The alpha role is the equivelent of giving a child a spanking-its a "lasty straw" move, sort of like saying "ok, that's it buster, no more mister-nice-guy" lol :D

~Seij

[Malamum]

[quote]I dont like to do "negative things" if I can avoid it, but nothing else has helped baileys barking and her "pouncing" at the door going ballistic when someone comes - Im startting to wonder if this might be worth trying [/quote]

I know of people who do use the alpha roll when it comes to a very dominant dog that is challenging the human

[courtnek]

I agree Malamum everyone. The Alpha roll is both dangerous and anti-productive. A truly submissive dog will roll over on its own when stared down by a superior. I have done the alpha roll on one of my dogs, who did have dominance issues, but never again. I started using a modified form of pack rules instead, NILIF falls into that category.


Your dog doesnt sound dominant, and in fact is doing what dogs do when someone comes to the door. It is their job to warn you. Barking is normal.
What I would do is choose a command the dog doesnt already know, like
"settle" (I use CHILL) Put your dog on a short two foot leash, have someone come to the door and knock or ring the bell. Issue your command and at the same time make him sit. Then stand on the leash.
If he tries to get up, make him sit again, again issuing the command.
To silence mine I would put them in a sit, and when I said CHILL I would put two fingers across the bridge of their noses. They learned that
was the silence gesture. Then and only then would I open the door, still standing on the leash. They couldnt get up, and they were commanded to silence. It takes some time, but it helps if you get a friend to work with you on this. Have your friend bring a treat, and reward him for sitting and being silent. There is nothing more gratifying for company, and disturbing
for a stranger, then seeing a well behave dog sitting at your side when you open the door. The guests are pleased, the stranger worries about how well the dog is trained. You should let him bark for a bit at first, though. He is doing his job after all.

[Horsefeathers!]

I have a friend on another list that does a lot of rescue and has several of her own dogs and she trains them all to run to their crates when the doorbell rings or someone knocks. She apparently made it a game and worked on it when there wasn't actually company so now when the "alarm" sounds, the dogs automatically happily run to their crates. Maybe that's an option?

[imported_Kat]

I disagree Seijun but you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. The language of dogs has changed so much since domestication. Dogs behaviour now is much more modified. I am not against a dog reprimanding a puppy or young dog, but I have seen it fail time and time again when people attempt to use it. If a dog is brought up correctly without confusing signals that will create conflict in the dogs mind, then there should be no reason to use any form of abusive dominance training.

[Seijun]

Kat, the alpha roll is not "abusive". I have said that before. It doesn't hurt the dog, and if a dog gets an alpha role it deserved it unless you are doing things wrong. And like it or not, some dogs will grow up b****y and dominant regardless of how you raise them.

[quote]...if you had performed an alpha roll correctly you would not need to be repeating yourself so how can you do it only on a dog you have dont it to before?...[/quote]

My adult dog has used the alpha role twice on the same puppy. The alpha role isn't an automatic problem solver, just a warning that you are tired of the dog misbehaving when it has been given numerous warnings already. Therefore it can be performed more than once on the same dog. What I mean by performing the roll only on dogs who have had it done before, is that you shouldn't do the alpha role on an adult dog who has never had it done before. If you alpha rolled him before as a puppy, then he has had experience with it and should be familiar with what it means when he is grown into an adult. Dogs are like people, and they learn a lot of their language as they go.
You are correct that dog language has changed a bit through domestication, but that doesn't change the fact that they still "speak" with the same base language. Just because a dog is domesticated doesn't mean it won't understand what an alpha roll is. Now mind you, SOME dogs won't, just as not all humans know what the word "[insert word here]" means. BUT, it is expected that because the alpha roll is a basic part of canine language, most dogs will understand it. I have seen adults use it on pups, and I have seen adults use it on adults. Domestic dogs (at least some) obviously know what it means and how to use it if necessary. It's not my fault if bozos like the "role it over and force it to make eye contact because it barks too much" guy misuse it, teach others to misuse it, and basically butcher the "job" of the alpha roll. The problem is not the alpha role. The alpha roll is a perfectly permissible form of language for the dog provided the dog understands it. The problem is people. Most don

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='Seijun'] The alpha roll is a perfectly permissible form of language for the dog provided the dog understands it. ~Seij[/quote]
This confuses me and yet tickles me. I'm imagining someone tapping Poochie on the shoulder and saying, "hey, do you know what an alpha roll is?" Poochie replies, "yes, of course," and then WHAM! down on the floor goes Poochie when the lord and master owner disciplines her.

Sorry, I'm not making fun and I think I do get the idea of what you're saying. Just that tickled me. Cut me some slack... I'm tired and silly. I guess the part that's kind of confusing is how to determine which dog "understands it" and which dog doesn't.

I don't know a thing about the always's and nevers in regard to discipline, but I know that I once tried that almighty alpha roll on one of my dogs and it freaked him out so badly that I vowed never to do it again. I want them to respect me, not fear me, and this dog was obviously way traumatized and didn't trust me for quite a while. It was like a knife in my heart to see him cowering away from me for weeks after that. I never, ever want my dogs to fear me or not trust me. It was one of my early lessons in not believing everything I read on the internet (was following the advice of some dog "experts"). I kind of bought into that "must dominate them" thing because so many "experts" said it was so, but I've really evolved away from that type of thinking. I'm still top dog in this house, but I like to think of myself as more of a benevolent leader rather than lord and master.

I'm not getting into the whole "alpha roll.... always/never" thing, but I'll betcha I won't be doing it ever again to any of my OWN dogs. I'm fully willing to step up and say that we probably did it wrong, goofy owners and all that, but I can't imagine how many ways there are to flip a dog over onto its back to show dominance and since I'm not trying to "dominate" anymore...

I still have one dog that would still challenge and try to call the shots, but we've had [u]much[/u] better luck with NILIF and being calm and consistent. Battling with him and demanding compliance at all costs got us nowhere but snapped at and my husband bitten. We don't have that problem since we stopped trying to strongarm him.

One side note... with all the dogs we have in the house plus the fosters that come and go, we've had some scuffles and brawls, but I've never once seen one of my dogs flip another dog onto its back.

[Malamum]

I do agree with Seijun to a certain extent, I

[Baileysmom]

[quote]The person who made the original post got it the wrong way round or the person who told her that really has no idea. Actually the latter is probably correct if he/she told her to use it just because a dog is barking
[/quote]

thats exactly the way it was told to me, but like I said, it was a "friend of a friend" and I have no idea if my friend got it confused or her friend has no idea what shes talking about :roll:

[courtnek]

a properly apologetic dog (which is what laying on the back is all about. "I accept your correction. You are right, I apologize") will NOT look the alpha in the face, but rather avert the eyes and give up. if hes still staring at you, he hasnt accepted your correction, or your dominance.

[Malamum]

Sorry Baileysmom, I wasn't trying to make a big deal out of it being wrong. Just thought that it may have got mixed up in the passing of the message - kind of like Chinese Whispers :wink:

[imported_Cassie]

Oh lordy lordy the alpha roll :( :lol:
Now Courtnek, can you see my reasons why I am so against people using the term "Alpha" and amateurs trying to dominant their dogs with these methods :wink: When ever I hear a client say they have been training their dogs to be a subservient and they the owner is the alpha I cringe inside and can pretty well predict we are going to have a confused mixed up dog coming in for grooming.
Most of the dogs I have seen which the owners have practiced the "alpha roll" on have been men. And the dogs have been so confused and mixed up and MORE dangerous and basically harder to work with. It is really hard trying to convert these dogs to positive training methods and rebuild their confidence. I have adopted a few dogs raised this way, and believe me I got more out of these dogs with positive reinforcement than their owners did with the harsh old "alpha" techniques. One dog in particular I remember I adopted from a neighbor, it was an Alaskan Malamute mix. That dog ruled the household and once had its Alpha owner cornered in the bedroom. I was 12 and had to go over to the house and rescue the owner (luckily the owner had a phone in his bedroom). I took in that dog and excelled in obedience with him, he was one smart cookie.

I think the proper term for our dogs is to be a benevolent leader :wink:

[quote][b]Here is part of an article from my WDJ[/b]
When the "you have to dominate your dog" concept was in vogue, many trainers instructed their clients to establish "dominance" (used incorrectly here) over their dogs. This was supposed to be accomplished by, amoung other things, eating before the dog eats, going through doorways before the dog, and routinely rolling the dog on his back in a show of force.
Fortunately, current and more in-depth behavior studies have shown that in wild and domesticated dogs, it's not true that the pack leader always eats first, goes through the doorways first, or routinely rolls other pack members onto their backs to keep them in line. She may be able to do all those things if she wants, but it really is in the pack's best interest - and hers- to be in a state of equilibrium that doesn't involve a constant show of force.
When there is plenty of food to go around, there is no need for the pack leader to assert herself at the feed trough. If she is eager to go through a door, she may choose to go first, in which case lower ranking pack members defer to her.
And anyone who has ever watched dogs greeting and interacting quickly realizes that a belly up posture on the part of a subordinate dog is usually voluntary. In fact, this voluntary submission posture normally triggers a response in the more assertive dog to call a truce. If one dog violently forces another onto his back and or ignores the subordinates dog

[imported_Cassie]

Baileysmom,
here is an article for you on barking. This may help you with your problem. :wink:

[url]http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1551&articleid=153[/url]

[quote]I agree Malamum and Court it must of been a mistake..BUT what a mistake to pass on in a message huh?...imagine someone who knows no better tying to alpha roll an aggressive, barking dog and holding it waiting intently for it to look back..then WHAM!..nose bitten clean off before the person noticed the eye contact was even made...dangerous advice if ever there was any...[/quote]
I agree K, it is very dangerous advise to pass along. I would bet that a good percentage of owners attacked or bitten by their own dogs have been a direct result of harsh training methods such as the alpha roll. a dog fighting for survival is going to fight back.

[courtnek]

[quote]Now Courtnek, can you see my reasons why I am so against people using the term "Alpha" and amateurs trying to dominant their dogs with these methods [/quote]

y'know Cassie you're right. I have been very "tunnel-visioned" about my terminology because I dont teach strangers. Every dominant dog I have trained (using Alpha as the term for Top Dog) has been someone I knew who asked for help. And with that help went basic pack training, from a benevolent Top Dog. (alpha roll is not included in that training, its too dangerous for the inexperienced) I have never pack trained advocating violence, or anger, or physical punishment, (except for the two-fingered snap to get a dogs attention, its non-painful, and not used as punishment,
gets the dogs attention with a light two-fingered snap on the muzzle) but all the dogs I've trained have gotten to the point of taking over, and becoming just this side of dangerous.

Being here, I have seen it from the "other side"...and I think maybe Alpha is not a good training term. Its used too often on wolf shows, and the damn media always display the Alpha in "primary scenes", where it has to show teeth, growl or down another wolf. The average person does not understand that this is all mostly "show", the outcome is rarely, if ever, really dangerous. A true Alpha wolf knows better than anyone, including us, how important it is to not endanger or injure other pack
members. They cant survive without co-operation of the whole group.

I understand now your viewpoint, which I didnt before. I apologize.
(*rolls over on back and says she's sorry*)

I guess its a drawback knowing too much about pack rules with people who dont....


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[imported_Cassie]

Thank you Courtnek for seeing my point of view :wink:
With my line of work I deal with the general public, some don't have a clue about dog owner ship and are looking for simple ways to right the wrongs of their dogs. I find it disturbing that when the advice of "Just be the dogs Alpha" is given to the owners. They automatically have this warped vision of dominating the dog by force. Perhaps the advise given by a dog person was meant to be the dogs benevolent leader...but, some how the meaning of Alpha gets misconstrued by a lot of dog owners. As you mentioned Courtnek, people seem to have this mental image of wolves as being ferocious animals, which tear into each other and are very forceful in their domination of one another. It

[courtnek]

I agree with that. The wolf, throughout history, has been portrayed as an evil, vicious, non-trustworthy animal. Which they can be if you're a sheep herder,but its not because they're nasty. they need to eat. penned sheep are easy to catch. But little red riding hood, and the 3 little pigs, arent helping matters. I got to watch a real pack in action (there is a place in wisconsin where you can go and howl with the pack..the people are enclosed, the wolves are free). I didnt howl (and I dont think its a great idea anyway) but I did get to watch them interact with each other. There is such a "lovingness" about them. Discipline is always present, of course, but is mostly used to train the pups. thats where the alpha roll has its best affect.Get them disciplined while they're young. The other members all gave way to a tolerant and benevolant Alpha. (female in this case. dont know what happened to the male). The other females will develop milk if the alpha cannot for some reason, to feed her pups. They babysit for each other. (more reliable than my sister :lol: ) Its like watching a
well fed, happhy family in action. The alpha would pick a pup and lick it.
The other members deferred to her, and as long as they kept their place she would groom them and lick them, lay down with them. It was an incredible site to see. Down in the lower ranks there was some squabbling
(I assume fighting for position) and I watched the Alpha walk up, snarl at both of them, show her teeth and stand there and stare. They backed down and shut up. Peace was restored. I found that rare, since usually the alpha lets them work it out, but the people at the site said these two were constantly squabbling. I guess she just got sick of it after a while...

Kinda like a mom with two kids. My mom always punished all the kids equally if she didnt kniow for a fact who started the trouble. We learned to get along out of self preservation....

:o :o :lol: :lol:

It was interesting to me to watch the squabblers. From the ruckus they raised, you'd think they were hell-bent on killing each other, but neither
ever suffered a scratch. It was all show, and thats what people dont understand.