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"Borgies" = purebred, bobtail Boxers


Guest Mutts4Me

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Guest Mutts4Me

I'm branching this off from CC's thread because I find it absolutely fascinating and don't want it to get lost in the shuffle.

In the wake of a docking ban in the UK, a Boxer breeder decided to introduce Corgi bloodlines to his Boxers to get a naturally bobbed tail. They are now registered and shown as pure Boxers.

This page has a several-part article spanning several years in which the experiment took place. You can see the initial Boxer/Corgi (aka Borgi) crosses, and how they developed (per se) back into Boxers. Very interesting (not condemning or condoning) reading:

[url]http://www.steynmere.com/GENETICS.html[/url]

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Guest Anonymous

Studying genetics for breeding purposes in Staffords and genetics in general has always been very interesting to me. I would recommend this article to anyone, if you are interested in breeding or not, it is a very interesting study.

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Guest Anonymous

And so why aren't these called 'designer mutts' also? Their breeding stems from that of the same procedures used in Australia on the Labradoodles.

Amazing, ironic, and hypocritical!

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Well.....in all actuality they are mutts....unless they are breeding true which they aren't. If you read the study, the bobtail gene does not guarantee that all pups will be born bobbed. As far as I know, although the English Kennel Club has accepted bobtails from 5th generations and above, The AKC nor the American Boxer Club has accepted them as pure....As a whole I believe the only countries pushing for acceptance of this deviation are in fact the countries in which tail docking has been banned.

Don't be too quick to judge, Ansy.

If you want my honest opinion on this I believe it is as unethical as breeding for black Boxers....

*edited to add* I think I might feel differently if the Dr Cattanach was using his genetic skills and concentrating his efforts to better the [i]health[/i] of the breed rather than the physical [i]appearance[/i]....Boxers are a breed plagued with health problems....hypothyroidism, cardiomyopathy, cancer, skin problems, etc. If you're going to mess with the genetic makeup of a breed, why not focus on breeding OUT some of the bad?? JMO

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In reality arent all of our purebreds actually mutts too? I mean really all they really are are mixed breeds which are inbred. I would think that to keep mixing them up would be healthier than to keep inbreeding and line breeding and all that.
It got me thinking about this topic on another post. I did some reading on genetics in cattle farms. They said that they keep mixing cow breeds to keep healthy cattle for example breeding a beef bull to a dairy cow. Since cows are man made like dogs and they are not really a natural breed by nature then it only makes sense to keep mixing them. When you think about it, a Doberman is not a purebred in the sense that a Red Fox would be. A Doberman (or other purebred) would be like me mixing a Red Fox with a Grey fox then keep inbreding to keep a true look then keep line breeding etc to keep the dog in the new man made bred. In other words purebred dogs are not natural and its no wonder we are killing our dogs slowly with bad health death certificates.

I really don't know a whole lot about genetics, but, to me its common sense that our purebred dogs are not pure in the sense that say a timber wolf or other wild animals are. Purebred dogs are man made to be pure, not natural like the wild pure species. I have always just thought the purebred dog world to be a little screwy and silly.

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[quote]In other words purebred dogs are not natural and its no wonder we are killing our dogs slowly[/quote]

WOW that is interesting.... I have often had that thought as it relates to dogs and horses ... not sure if I would have had the guts to say it here first but I thank you for saying it.

Look at the American Mustang ... the few remeing wild herds have been mixing it up as Nature intended for over 300 years and now they are the hardiest horses you could imagine. An Arabian my friend bought from Idaho had accidentally mixed with a wild stallion and this filly (paint by the way) was the most independant foal we have ever seen, running all out from her first day, eating hay and grass from her third day, weaning way earlier (almost voluntarily) compared to the purebeds...

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what we now call purebreds were bred that way for a reason, a purpose. The original intent was not Crufts, or the AKC, or UKC or any other dog club. The purpose was to develop a dog that could do the job it was developed for. Certain traits/characteristics were necessary for the dog to do it's "job". Labs were bred to be basically waterprrof, with an otter like tail used as a rudder and short hair. double coated with an oily undercoat. they began their heritage dragging fishing nets to shore.

Collies were bred to herd. shepherds to herd and guard. Foxhounds to hunt fox. terriers to rid the world of rodent-type creatures. etc. Back in those days, it really wasnt important what the dog looked like, providing it had the necessary skills to be a good worker. Times change. Dogs became show pieces more often than workers, and the clubs set standards on how the dog should look. IMO this changed alot of the dogs as we know them today. I agree that line and inbreeding is not good, and that the healthier dogs come from mixed "stock", but they cant guarantee the look that way. or the show prize. Even some of the working dogs suffered from this, because they thought that this kind of breeding would make the working traits better. It usually doesnt, but you dont see that for a few generations. It has always been my take that the gene pool can only be closed in so far, before genetic defects pop up.

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That reminds me why there is beauty in purebreds ... now remembering even when watching Crufts or Westminster the announcers are always talking about the original working intention of the breed.

One wonderful thing we have near me here is the Meeker Classic - sheepherding trial. Haven't made it yet but as I understand any breed or mix is welcome to participate, they're judged based on their performance herding sheep ... maybe more things like that are in order. Agility is beautiful in that way too... Hurray for "trials!"

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Courtnek, wouldn't it be safe to say that in some areas of the world there were natural dogs. Like perhaps in Newfoundland with the dogs there they may have natural dogs that adapted to the watery environment. Some thing like we people developed to suit our continents like with eskimos they have eyes which can reflect the glare of the snow. They developed naturally and did need any one to help them breed to develop the eyes to reflect the glare off the snow. Now with dogs I have no doubt that there were different mutts all over the world that developed to suit their environment. Northern dogs with special coats to live in northern climates and developed naturally. Not the specialized purebreds we have today.
Its also safe to say that through out history man has always mixed dogs up and was breeding dogs that would do a job. They were not purebreds, just mutts. The old time breeders were not concerned about looks and conformation they just cared if they would do a job. I think we could still continue breeding dogs for the jobs we wanted by crossbreeding and making the gene pools bigger to create healthy dogs.
Look at the alaskan Husky for example, mushers still cross breed them all the time to keep top racing dogs. Its simple good genetics.
To me, dogs are like people.
I was reading up on people who still breed real working dogs. Most old time breeders do not keep their herding dogs or guardian dogs in purebreds. So there fore you can still keep really good working dogs by cross breeding (and most good breeders do still cross breed all the time). It only makes sense even to a genetics dummy like myself.

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You this reminds me of the whole pit and mastiff thing for some reason...

So if these dogs (the fifth generation) are "purebreds" then pits bred for size earlier mixed with mastiffs (more than five generations ago) must be "purebred" too.

Thats what I get out of this. Im totally against this experiment. Why? In order to get a bobtail boxer these people are breeding mutts into the world, which I notice it doesnt say what happened to the dogs. I would hope they would ahve homes arranged but you never know.... I mean I dont get why they want these dogs' short tails so much anyway. If it becomes illegal to dock then just dont do it, what difference does it make? Wont you still love your dog the same. I mean Ill admit that I like the look of a cropped/docked dog better than not but that doesnt mean I would have the heart to do it. I would still love me dog just the same either way though...

It is an interesting experiment but dogs are not supposed to be for experimenting! :evil:

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Oh I meant to mention desertlady when it comes to horses. People are not as picky as dog breeders. I have a horse and it is not a purebred just a regular horse which has been a mongrel since time began :D yet, my horse is stable on the trails, I can compete in almost any thing. Some of my friends who have purebred horses have high strung, fearful horses which can't be taken on the trails unless really worked with.
I also will never be looked down apon by other horse people when I breed her. This is what is sooooo refreshing about horse people, they look for stable horses not just looks. Its also nice that I can compete in just about any thing with my mongrel horse and I can also enter her in conformation shows. most horse people have a sensible head on their shoulders and realize that by too close of breeding or too small of a gene pool can cause problems. Can you imagine if our horses started suffering from problems such as hip dysplasia and other inherited diseases like our purebred dogs do :o and yes, I know every one knows of a mixed breed that has HD, but, you have to admit that purebred breeding programs started these horrible genetic disease in the first place.
I also never thought of purebred dog breeders as ever being "reputable". That makes me laugh. Sure they throw alot of money into their dogs, the reason being is that they are addicted to dog shows and winning. Its like being a gambler or and alchohlic. They are no more bettering breeds than I am ending world hunger. We are supporting their addiction which is dog shows.

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Yeah thanks Matty, CC and all! Just from my experience "mutt" dogs AND "mutt" horses have been the best performers and best behaved. Maybe not the most "beautiful" as far as I have been conditioned to look at them (example those pure Arabians running still put me in awe) but which one woulld you rather work with, I mean go herd cattle with etc... the "mutt!" every time.[/b]

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