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Patella Luxation in small/toy dogs


Papillons

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Hello Everyone, :)

I've been a member here for over a year now, but I just haven't found much time to post! This is an amazing site and I look forward to learning from you all! :)

Anyway, I have 3 papillons, a lab/pit rescue and 5 cats.

Getting back to my topic... My oldest Papillon has horrible patellas. Both knees were luxating at grade 2 and 3+ last March. We decided since he was so young (over a year) to get the surgery done. The first surgery was done May 2004.

Big mistake! The surgery failed and both knees were not only still luxating, they now were moving inward and outward. (Where before it was only inward.) He was worse off than when we started!

The surgery was preformed by a top notch Orthopedic Surgeon in our area. He was very upset with the outcome. He and his team decided to operate on my papillon again, this time free of charge, to see what had gone wrong. They found nothing that was obvious, and just tightened the ligaments. They did not need to cut into the bone like they had on the first surgery.

Nearly 5 weeks later after the second surgery, I have a feeling our next check up (in 2 days) is going to bring bad news again. Colby, my dog, can't get up. He'll be lying down, go to stand and scream every single time he lifts his body from the ground. He's so stiff and so uncomfortable. This dog is a year and a half old, and I fear he might have to live with this forever. :( Generally, we're having to pick him up and set him upright just so he can walk.

He's on all kinds of supplements. Glucosamine, Chondroiton, MSM, Salmon Oil, Vitamin C and Apple Cider Vinegar. We do heat therapy and hydrotherapy 2 times a week. He is still to be kept locked up in a crate or x-pen, but daily I let him out to stretch his legs a little. This seems to help with the stiffness.

My question is... Has anyone ever heard of such a surgery going so poorly not once, but twice?! I'm wondering if I should take him to the nearest vet school and get him seen by another specialist for a second opinion. Is there anything else I could be doing to help him with the pain or stiffness?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Take care,
Colleen, Colby, Gabe and Loki

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Oh that sure scares me... I'm thinking I might want to surgically correct Ripley's LP's, but not if it's common for those surgeries to fail. My dog does horribly on anesthesia and if it would be all for nothing, I'd just as soon get him a little cart to ride in or carry him around.

I'm interested in knowing more about this as well. Ripley has awful patellas and, although I know they aren't as severe as Colby's are, they still hurt him on occasion and I KNOW that about once a week, he's stiff and sore.

I was wondering something, as well... Is it common with severe LP's (and bad hips in Ripley's case) to have the leg amputated? I imagine if it was either years and years of surgery and pain, and being locked in a crate, or amputation, that amputation would be more humane. *I don't even like to THINK about it.. :(*

It's a relatively minor thing, but I've found that massage REALLY helps Ripley loosen up those hind legs and be able to walk and run better on the days that he is sore..

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Oh please please PLEASE take my advice and try everything humanly possible to avoid surgery.

I've been talking to a lot of papillon owners... apparently patella surgery and papillons just doesn't mix. There are really good outcomes, and then horrible ones like mine. Colby will forever be in pain even if it does correct. He will always have arthritis.

What degree are Ripley's knees now? If they aren't a 3+ don't worry about surgery. Often times these little guys can manage it on their own. The way you're describing it, it doesn't seem like he's really that affected by it. How much pain is he in? If he still runs, jumps, and plays like always, I'd hold out as long as I can.

Massage is a wonderful thing! I wish I had looked for more homeopathic remedies than jumping into surgery so quickly. Vets tell us too often that surgery is the only answer. It's not. :( Do you have him on supplements? For his 5 pound frame... I'd immediately start him on this:

500-800mg Glucosamine
500mg Chondroitin
500mg MSM
1 tsp Apple Cider Vinegar (with the Mother ingredient. This has to come from a health food store and not the grocery store.)

If Colby didn't have his glucosamine, chondroitin, or MSM, he'd never be able to move!

These all are great joint supplements. The ACV improves circulation (which will get blood flowing to his joints better) and is also a pain reducer. (Along with many other benefits.)

Have you tried hydrotherapy? Even sticking him in your tub and filling it up and helping him swim will REALLY help those joints. If you want more information on how to make this possible, let me know! ;) If he already likes swimming, take him swimming as much as possible.

Did your vet tell you what degree his hips were? I would do hip surgery before I did patella surgery. But, I think if you can avoid all surgeries.. you might be better off. Not to mention how incredibly expensive they are, but these paps just DONT do well under anesthesia. If your boy already has had problems, the last thing I would do would be to stick him back under.

I'm interested in his hip problems since this isn't common of the breed. Anything you can tell me I'd greatly appreciate! Have you had his elbows checked? I think Colby might have elbow displasia, but I'm not even going to worry about that until we get out of the woods with the knee problems. lol

I haven't heard of amputation for that... hmm.... I know it would break my heart to see Colby legless. :( I think you shouldn't worry about that yet. :) Keep Ripley happy and get him started on some supplements. You'd be surprised how well these guys get along in life! :)

Please keep me updated! I feel your pain with you! I've been there and done that and watched them scream in pain, collapse, run with one leg in the air, all the while sobbing! LOL So, you have all of my support in the world.

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Guest Anonymous

Colby, my dog, can't get up. He'll be lying down, go to stand and scream every single time he lifts his body from the ground. He's so stiff and so uncomfortable. This dog is a year and a half old, and I fear he might have to live with this forever. Generally, we're having to pick him up and set him upright just so he can walk.


Forgive me if this comes accross as harch. But why in the world would you allow your little guy to go through his life in pain?
If this is to be his final outcome are you choosing to medicate him and to help him up everyday? I know how you feel about your dogs, I feel the same about mine. They are members of my family and losing one of them would break my heart. But I would never put them through a life of pain.
I pray your little Colby heals and has the quality of life that every dog should have. And I would most defiantly get a second opinion.

Krista

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[quote]What degree are Ripley's knees now? If they aren't a 3+ don't worry about surgery. Often times these little guys can manage it on their own. The way you're describing it, it doesn't seem like he's really that affected by it. How much pain is he in? If he still runs, jumps, and plays like always, I'd hold out as long as I can. [/quote]

From what I've seen, they aren't any more than a 2. We are going to send his tests in to OFA to have it really checked out. (I'll let you know when the results get back.. How long does it usually take?)

We had one vet tell us that his knees were fine, but I had a vet tech friend say that there was something suspicious up with those hind legs... So he is going to see his good friend the vet sometime this week, and then when we get to Arizona he is going to see his OTHER good friend the vet there. :P I like to get as many opinions as I can.


I've also noticed an improvement since I switched his diet.. I forgot to mention that to you. He was eating super-premium foods, Innova, Solid Gold, Wellness, and the such, but when I switched him to a raw diet, it seemed to help him relax a bit more too.

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[quote name='Kissta']
Forgive me if this comes accross as harch. But why in the world would you allow your little guy to go through his life in pain?
If this is to be his final outcome are you choosing to medicate him and to help him up everyday? I know how you feel about your dogs, I feel the same about mine. They are members of my family and losing one of them would break my heart. But I would never put them through a life of pain.
I pray your little Colby heals and has the quality of life that every dog should have. And I would most defiantly get a second opinion.

Krista[/quote]

Trust me, Krista... I've tried everything imaginable to get this boy sound again. We've had top notch specialists looking at him across the region. Pretty much they have no other advice. I've had to turn to homeopathic remedies myself. :( We do have some pain killers around, but I generally only give them to him on really bad day.

Also, he is only 5 weeks post his second operation. It's very normal for him to be in a great deal of pain. Some patella surgeries cause the dog to hop or stand on its FRONT legs lol. I think we're doing very well with him just walking relatively soundly.

He goes for his 5 week checkup tomorrow. We'll hear one way or the other if this may or may not work.

It breaks my heart to know he's crippled and probably will be for the rest of his life. The only thing left to do at this point is manage his pain and get him in therapy. I will not put this dog under for another surgery that will just fail.

Thank you for the well wishes. :)

------------

RipleysGirl... You can get all of these supplements at a health food store, or sometimes even KMart or Walmart. :) We go back and forth looking for the lowest prices and sales because we feed it to 3 dogs! LOL And we go through it quickly.

Also... for the Glucosamine, look for the "sulfate" kind instead of the "HCL". They digest and use Glucosamine Sulfate better. :)

------------

DAL -- Thank you! I'm really crossing my fingers! But I don't want to be too positive and end up crushed again! (And sobbing out of the office LOL!!!) I will update tomorrow. :)

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[quote=Ripley's Girl]
From what I've seen, they aren't any more than a 2. We are going to send his tests in to OFA to have it really checked out. (I'll let you know when the results get back.. How long does it usually take?)

We had one vet tell us that his knees were fine, but I had a vet tech friend say that there was something suspicious up with those hind legs... So he is going to see his good friend the vet sometime this week, and then when we get to Arizona he is going to see his OTHER good friend the vet there. :P I like to get as many opinions as I can.


I've also noticed an improvement since I switched his diet.. I forgot to mention that to you. He was eating super-premium foods, Innova, Solid Gold, Wellness, and the such, but when I switched him to a raw diet, it seemed to help him relax a bit more too.[/quote]

Good for you! Getting second (and third) opinions! :) The more advice and the more people you talk to, the better informed you'll be.

A grade 2 shouldn't be operated on. Don't let them talk you into it! lol A grade 3 is very questionable, because often times it progresses to a grade 4. When it's a grade 4 for a long time, it's not repairable. :(

I'm anxious to hear about his hip problems. The poor baby! This isn't common at all in paps, so I'm really curious what they have to say.

As for sending in the OFA results... I'm a little confused. Do you mean patella or hip? Because the patellas your DR should be able to tell you right away. :) Hips will need to be x-rayed. And that is darn expensive. :( But useful so you know what you're dealing with.

I wish you luck!!! You sound so responsible and I can tell how much you care for your boy. :) You're doing everything perfectly!!

Interesting that you mentioned the raw diet. I, myself, can't get over it to make it for the boys. LOL I just don't like meat in general, and it's hard enough for me to cook them some chicken to add to their Wellness/Verus. I'm glad it seems to be helping Ripley though! I wish him all the luck in the world. :)

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Heh, I don't like meat either.. *I* don't eat it, but I'm not a carnivore. It's been kind of hard for me to adjust to feeding my 5lb pap a diet that a wolf would get, but after I've seen how well he does on it, I can't bring myself to feed exclusively kibble anymore. I also happen to have the most finicky dog on the face of the earth. He turns up his nose at raw meat sometimes. :roll:

I mean sending the x-rays in of his hips. Dahhhhh, sorry, my mind is skipping all over the place! We haven't had that done yet, we will next Monday with the vet here, or in a couple of weeks with the vet in Arizona.

I have a question.. can you FEEL the patella slipping around when you flex the dog's leg? Because I have my hand on Ripley's knee and I'm moving his leg around, and I can't feel anything really abnormal. I've even compared it to what I feel on my Border Collie (Who I KNOW is clear of that problem) and it's not any different... :-?

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[quote=Ripley's Girl]Heh, I don't like meat either.. *I* don't eat it, but I'm not a carnivore. It's been kind of hard for me to adjust to feeding my 5lb pap a diet that a wolf would get, but after I've seen how well he does on it, I can't bring myself to feed exclusively kibble anymore. I also happen to have the most finicky dog on the face of the earth. He turns up his nose at raw meat sometimes. :roll:

I mean sending the x-rays in of his hips. Dahhhhh, sorry, my mind is skipping all over the place! We haven't had that done yet, we will next Monday with the vet here, or in a couple of weeks with the vet in Arizona.

I have a question.. can you FEEL the patella slipping around when you flex the dog's leg? Because I have my hand on Ripley's knee and I'm moving his leg around, and I can't feel anything really abnormal. I've even compared it to what I feel on my Border Collie (Who I KNOW is clear of that problem) and it's not any different... :-?[/quote]

LOL I can't stand meat in general... I don't know how I'd deal with raw meat and watching them chomp away. ;)

I agree with you and the kibble thing. Mine never get kibble. They get the wet food, and then tons of supplements. Chicken, carrots, noodles... whatever they think tastes good and keeps them a good weight. ;) It's hard keeping weight on my two smallest who aren't neutered.

I'm unsure how long it takes for the results to come back. :( I've never had that test done myself. I wonder if others here might know though!! My guess would be several weeks. But, your vet should be able to give you an idea right after it's done.

As for feeling the patella... this is a fragile subject. lol A GOOD sign is that you can't feel anything moving thus far.

Try this:

Stand him on a table (or if he isn't comfortable on one, set him up on the floor.) Try to get all four feet straight so he's level and has good balance. Now left one hind foot while keeping one hand on the patella. Lift it all the way up, and place it down. Do this a few times. (Lift it straight up, so that he bends at the knee.)

Do both legs.

Next, take one foot and pull it gentally backwards until it's fully extended, while keeping your one hand on his patella to feel for movement. Then bend the leg back up so where it's bent off of the ground, but close to his body. Extend it again a few times and keep feeling around.

You don't want to press hard or pull any ligaments you feel. If you don't immediately feel things moving around... that's a great sign! He should be at the most just a 2. A 3 will move in and out... and 4 will be hard to identify because it's ALWAYS out. lol You might feel a weird knob on him.

The best bet is to let the vet do it though... they know where to press and how much pressure to apply to see if it will slip out of place.

Good luck! :)

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Awe THANKS so much for your help!! I'll try that when he wakes up.

I have this *thing* about feeding my dogs kibble.. I DO feed it, but I like to give them variety.. I mean, I just think about eating a bowl of total cereal three times a day. :lol: :lol:

And keeping weight on is a serious issue with Ripley, he isn't neutered either. When I had his hernia corrected, I was still thinking that he could be a performance dog (I'm more of a working dog fancier) and be bred.. He did SO badly on the anesthesia (he took forever to wake up, he even worried the vet.. I watched the sugery and I was pacing the whole time when he wasn't responding) that I don't want to put him under again.. I'm really just trying to weigh the risks and the benefits here, I REALLY want to neuter him, just because it's healthier for him and would be muuch more responsible, but I'm kind of afraid to...

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lol My list of questions.... ;)


How old was he when he first had the surgery?

What kind of anesthesia was used, if you know?

What kind of hernia did he have?

What was his recovery time like afterwards?

Is he sensitive to shots or allergic to anything?


He still could be a performance dog! :) Do you like obedience? If you can manage those legs and hips... I think he'd do fine! He might not be able to do agility, but I don't see why some obedience work would do much harm.

What was your breeder like? Do they know if they have these problems in their lines often? Were the parents health tested?

I'm really interested in genetics soley because my breeder is going to use one of my dogs as a stud for his breeding program once he gets his championship, passes his CGC test, and passes the rest of his health tests. (So far, so good!)

And we have another show this weekend! ;) Cross your fingers!

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He was 10 months I believe. It was just a couple of months ago that he had the surgery.
I am not sure what kind of anesthesia was used, I'll ask the vet when I take him in.
He had an umbilical hernia, the vet supposed that it was caused by the umbilical cord being pulled on slightly.
He recovered in about 2 weeks, to where he could move around without being in pain.
He's not sensitive to shots, and he is allergic to rawhide and cooked eggs. (raw eggs are fine)

His breeder is awful. She didn't do any health testing on her dogs, although she said they were in 'good health, a vet checked them over before they were bred'. She will not respond to my emails and says that *of course* all her dogs are perfectly healthy. I was very foolish in buying from her. She has offered to take him back and refund our money, but I wouldn't give him up for anything, and certainly not to her. (She would probably breed him, knowing the way she keeps her unaltered dogs around each other)
I really should have looked farther for a better quality breeder, but at the time I was 13 and weary after being criticized by show breeders and denied a puppy because of my age and inexperience with the breed.. (Before they even knew me, or TALKED to me on the phone, at that. :x ) This breeder was 'nice' enough and she had a BEAUTIFUL puppy with the most darling raccoon mask, and an endearing personality, and after holding him and being given those kisses, I bought him. Mistake, I know, and I realize how CRUCIALLY important buying from a responsible breeder is now. Unfortunately i learned the hard way, but now I guess Ripley and I can serve as a major warning to anyone thinking of buying from a backyard breeder.

He could very well be a performance dog, I wouldn't mind getting more involved in obedience, he's smart as a whip and would be very good at it.

GOOD LUCK in the show, let me know how it goes!! :D

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[quote=Ripley's Girl]She has offered to take him back and refund our money, but I wouldn't give him up for anything, and certainly not to her.
[/quote]

Oh I don't blame you. There's no way you could give him up! I can't believe people even offer that. They know they have you stuck because you'd never trade love for money!

[quote]
I really should have looked farther for a better quality breeder, but at the time I was 13 and weary after being criticized by show breeders and denied a puppy because of my age and inexperience with the breed.. (Before they even knew me, or TALKED to me on the phone, at that. :x )
[/quote]

Don't beat yourself up over it. I should have looked for better in my first Papillon, but I didn't. I love him and nothing could ever change that. :) Like you said... you learn from your mistakes, even if it was the hard way. :evil:

Show breeders are a tough crowd. They love their dogs so much that they are skeptical of everyone. Thankfully so. But, sometimes in their skepticism, they turn away the best homes. I was turned away by breeders for a year before I finally got Colby.

[quote]
He could very well be a performance dog, I wouldn't mind getting more involved in obedience, he's smart as a whip and would be very good at it.
[/quote]

Ohhh I hope you start soon!!!! I bet he'd be amazing! :)

[quote]
GOOD LUCK in the show, let me know how it goes!! :D[/quote]

Thank you Thank you! Gabe's more than happy to go.. but it's Loki's first time out. Cross your fingers for us! ;)

-Colleen, Colby, Gabe and Loki

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Well Colleen, not particularly good news. :(
Ripley has LP's in both legs (Hips are 100% FINE THANK GOD). The right knee is about a grade 1, and the left is slightly more 'abnormal' but not quite a 2.
The vet was actually supportive of my decision to 'leave well enough alone'. He said that it wasn't severe or hard on Ripley and that the pain from the surgery would be far more pain and stress than would be worth it. He mentioned that if the knees worsened to the point of being over a 3, he would benefit from the surgery, so I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that he DOESN'T worsen.

Neuter is not yet scheduled, DEFINITELY in his near future. As dearly as I love him, I would never breed him after knowing of this problem.. And if he's not to be bred, I don't see a reason to leave him unaltered.

i'm going to start him on the supplements you listed once we get down to Arizona and get settled in again. Thanks again for your help! :)

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One thing those of you who have dogs diagnosed with luxating patellas you may want to find out more about cerebellar abiotrophy. One of my Scotties was wrongly diagnosed with laterally luxating patellas. I was almost going to do surgery....I fortunately did some research on my own and found out that cerebellar abiotrophy is more recently being diagnosed and often times missed by doctors and being called luxating pattellas. I ended up taking her for several opinions and now it has been agreed by all that she does have CA. Just thought some of you may want to look into it.

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Oh no, I am so sorry to hear about Ripley. :( At least his hips are good! And know that a grade 1 isn't something the dogs can't live with. Each time you go to the vet, have them check his patellas quickly to make sure they aren't getting worse.

It's possible as he ages his knees may worsen. Still, try everything before surgery. lol Get him on those supplements if you haven't already and limit his jumping and stairs if possible.

[b]Ikeffect[/b]... Thank you for that information! That's definitely something I'll look into.

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That's great, I hope he continues to stay in good shape! I'm looking into where to get the supps.. We just moved to Arizona and couldn't spend much time on feeding and supplementing. (He took a break from his raw diet to eat kibble. Poor guy. LOL)
Thanks for the info lkeffect, I'm going to check into it.

Colleen, how'd the show turn out?

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