Advice Please...

[Guest Anonymous]

I am the proud owner of a 3 yr old male Golden Retriever and have recently been approached by a person who I know to have bred at least two litters before, about breeding him with her bitch of a similar age.
I am due to meet with her next week to look at the pedigrees and assess their suitability and although I am sure that she knows what she is looking for, I on the other hand, have absolutely no idea!
I am looking for answers to questions along the following lines..
Does it matter if the same grandparents appear on both pedigrees?
Is it normal for a dog to appear more than once or at more than one level?
Would just like to gain a little bit of knowledge before I go and see her and have so far drawn a blank on the net. Have approached the Kennel Club and they advised that I speak to experienced breeders before going.
Any sort of information along those lines would be much appreciated.
Thanks very much.

[JudyHoffman]

Run as fast as you can from this person. Sounds like a backyard breeder to me.

Has your dog had OFA Hip Certifications? CERF exams since puppyhood? Why is your dog not fixed at 3 years old? Did you have intentions of breeding him?


There is much much much more to pedigrees than seeing the same dog several times in one pedigree.

Are there any pups from her previous litter you can see? Can you talk to those owners? Has her dog had OFA Certifications? Is the dog a show champion or titled in any sport it was bred to do? Is your dog a show dog? Is your dog from a breeder or a pet store? What do you know about your dogs parentage?

Christ, this crap makes me so angry! Don't do it!

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

I'm sorry, but I don't think you should breed your dog.

Although you won't be taking care of the pups, your still responsible. As K said, you'll have to pay for all the health testing that takes place before breeding your male (does the breeder even want proof that your dog is healthy, or just ready to mate at any time? :-? ). Also, have you ever shown your dog? Is he up to the AKC standards (if your living in the US, that is)? Does he have any allergies? Any diseases (especially those common in Goldens) that run in the family, perhaps? Hip Dysplasia? Checked for that? The list goes on and on, it almost never ends!

What if the puppies are never sold? Are you willing to help the other breeder and probably take one of the pups home? Does that "breeder" have a puppy contract? Will he/she require that all puppies be nuetered/spayed after being purchased, with proof? What food does she feed them? Is it high quality and fit for the breed (in your opinion...btw IAMS or EUKANUBA is [i]not[/i] a good answer)? Did you visit her "kennel"? Has she ever bred before? Is the kennel clean, do the puppies look healthy? Is she involved in any activities? Field trial? Agility? Fly ball? Obedience? GR RESCUE?

I know the above advice sounds like what to do when LOOKING for a puppy, but if you DO decide to breed (which I don't think, personally, is a good idea) then you should know where your future "grandchildren" will be staying and their living condition. Also, will you be able to pick a puppy of your choice to keep? Or co-own? There is a LOT of work put into this, even if your dog won't actually HAVE the puppies.

Do you own a kennel? Usually people who breed their males own a kennel or have a breeding program, judging by what you posted, you don't. Also, your Golden doesn't seem to have any show titles, so how will you prove that your dog's puppies are true to the breed? Its a complicated process.

Some breeders may have pedigrees as long as their arms with great-great-great grandmothers that have excellent show titles. It STILL doesn't mean that the breeder is a GOOD breeder. It still doesn't mean that the puppies can't inherit genetic diseases NOT mentioned in the pedigree.

Please don't breed your beautiful dog (I love your avatar! :D). BYBs have done enough to ruin the amazing GR breed. Now more and more GRs are agressive, have HD and have horrible coats and allergies.

And please fix your dog. :( Enough puppies are born in shelters EVERY DAY, not counting the ones that have to be PTS because those puppies were born (for more space). Tell that so called breeder to get lost, and adopt a puppy from the shelter, instead of bringing a whole new litter into the world.

Just my two cents :wink:

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

:oops: Oh, and welcome to the forum!

:D

[DogPaddle]

If he's showing his dog he can't have it desexed right?

Anyway, I think people have given pretty good advice.
You want to make sure that all things go well so definately the base of things is does each dog have all proper health certs for breeding, check the AKC they should have the recommended health certs for your breed listed. Second would be are both dogs registered and good healthy representations of the breed. Best way to know this is by showing as the judges should give you some clear indications. Third and still really important would be - what will this breeding do to improve the breed. Also do consider wether the litter is spoken for - good breeders often do this. If your not sure about anything - don't. If you got your dog from a good breeder who did all of the above, maybe they can give you some advice.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks very much for everybodys advice, although I think I deserve a little more credit than I have been given. This may be due to the fact that I tried to keep my post as brief as possible, but I feel I should now elaborate. I think the very fact that I have sought the advice of those more knowledgable in this subject means that I am not prepared to go ahead until I have found out all of the facts.
I have had all of the tests that my vet recommended. I have always hoped to breed from him, but personal circumstances have stopped me from doing so until now. I showed him when he was younger and although he holds no championship titles, he always did well. My previous vet (I have since moved away from the area and can no longer visit him) used to breed retrievers and has told me that he is an excellent representation of the breed. My current vet has expressed an interest in a puppy if I do go ahead. The bitches owner always insists on a home check and a recent litter of hers had 6 owners lined up before the birth. The reason that I am meeting her next week is to check out her premises and look at evidence of the bitches health. She still has the mother of the bitch and as she is local, I am aware of other dogs that have been bred by her. I bought my dog from a reputable breeder, recommended by the GR society in the UK. The whole point of the meeting is to check on the health of both bitch and dog. He has no allergies or diseases. My parents, who already have 2 retrievers, want a puppy from the litter, should I decide to go ahead. My dog does not have any show titles, although I must admit I am stumped as to how you deduced this from my post. My dog has NEVER exhibited any signs of aggression, has good hips and eyes, no allergies and a perfectly good coat. I have spoken to the breeder that I got my dog from and she has also highlighted a few things to watch out for.
Sorry if this has turned into a bit of a rant, but I have just tried to reply to each individual point. I am aware that it is easy to be misled and end up doing something that could potentially damage the breed. However, I have absolutely no intentions of going into this with my eyes shut, if at all!!
Thankyou for all of your comments. There is a lot of useful information in amongst a lot of negativity, but overall you have all been very helpful.

[JudyHoffman]

OK ..... not being negative here, but how do you know hips/eyes are OK? Have they been tested and rated by experts. Not your vet, people that specialize in this?

Just because your vet says he "is a good specimen" does not mean he is. There is DNA testing and so on and so forth. Are there test results from any of the other litters this bitch has produced.

I'm sorry, I don't think or believe you are doing your research. Before a bitch or stud is even bred, the tests cost about 1500 USD just to find out if the dog is healthy or not. And I'm not talking about yearly vet visits either.

[Guest Anonymous]

My dog has been xrayed to get his hip scored, and has been to an eye specialist to assess his eyes. You seem to be very good at making judgements about dogs and their owners that have no foundations.

"I'm sorry, I don't think or believe you are doing your research."

Why would I lie??

I am just starting to research this and have not made the decision to go ahead yet. I can't understand why asking questions from those with knowledge gets you this much disbelief. Not all stud dogs have been used before. Everyone has to start somewhere. I would appreciate it if you do not reply to this. I am not a liar and was just seeking some friendly advice!

[Seijun]

Guys, be easy on him/her. If they didn't want advice and didn't want to do research, why in the world would thay have posted here in the first place?? If they don't want to ACCEPT the advice, that's a different matter, but some credit is to be given for coming forward in the first place.

~Seij

[dogsgalore]

I think it's great that you are doing research and asking advice, :D not many people do that unfortunately. I don't know much about breeding dogs but I know it is something to be given a lot of serious thought and research before going ahead and I'm glad you are doing that. :)
You said that the female is 3 years old and has had a couple of litters? I agree with the others that this sounds somewhat like a backyard breeder. A female shouldn't have a litter until she is 2 years old and she has already had two, which means either she was bred before she was two or had two litters in one year which isn't a good thing. (Is the bitch registered?)
Oh, and welcome to Dogo! :D Very cute puppy on your avatar, what's his name?

[JudyHoffman]

Whoa. whoa, whoa ....... I never called you a liar, not ever not once. What are your dogs hips scores? On the European scale since you are in the UK? What are the stud dogs scores?

Your original post sounded very la-de-da about the whole thing and breeding should be taken very seriously. What will you get out of this breeding if you decide to do it?

[Queen Bitch]

If he is such a good specimen of the breed, there is no reason he can't finish getting his CH. Preferably, I would like to see a title or two at the back end as well. Are you still in contact with his breeder?

[DogPaddle]

It does sound like you are just about there. I agree with Hillside it would be nice to see him finish his CH and the bitch too. People cover all those questions and bases as they are not sure what you know etc. If you've already done some of them - excellent. I'm glad you've had appropriate health tests done - its sooooo important.

[AllAmericanPUP]

All I can say is do LOTS, LOTS, LOTS, LOTS, LOTS more research!!
before you decided to stud him out.
The basic questions you asked are questions anyone should know before breeding. :)
Do more searching on the interent, there is lots of information on the internet about breeding. Also there are books about breeding.

If you got your dog from a reputable breeder, then he/she should be more than happy to help you decide on breeding him and what bitch to breed him with, and what to look for, and everything else.

good luck. :D

[StarFox]

I agree with what everyone has said so far. But I think a realy important question is Why. Why do you want to breed? Do you plan on showing the pups? Are they going to be pet quality? Are you breeding for the betterment of the entire breed?


Also I'm happy that your getting test does especally on the hips but make sure that who ever your dog is going to be breeding with has all the appropriate helth check too.

[yorkiegirl]

Here is some info to help you understand pedigrees..hope it help explain the differance on inbreeding, linebreeding and outcrossing.
also find a mentor to help you.
Seeing the same dogs in both pedigrees ..you would be linebreeding.
It sound like the woman want to breed back into the lines to bring out the great quality it can produce in the pups..but this can also produce the worst too.
[url]http://www.angelfire.com/id/castellpwc/Pedigree.html[/url]

[eighthounds]

If your dog has, in fact been OFA'd and CERF'd, I'm sure you won't mind posting the dog's name. OFA has an on-line database that people can check. Sorry if I am being cynical. I guess 25+ years in rescue and dogs has made me not too willing to just take someone's word.