Been gone a while but looking for help

[3ofakind]

Hey y'all! Not sure any of you will remember me as its been soooo long since I have been around. I am Erin with 3 JRTs, Mary Stewie and Finnigan.

Anyway, the reason I stopped by was because I need your help! In our newspaper yesterday there was a story of a woman who son was mauled by a 4 dogs. She is now proposing BSL to the county.

[url]http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/9605485.htm[/url]

We are very sympathic for this woman and her son; however, this is not the answer. Our local dog owners org is now looking for answers on how to effectively fight this BSL. And I know there are many here who work very hard on this. Can anyone provide us with links to information that can help our cause.

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated. It's nice to be back and I hope to stay for a while.

[BuddysMom]

Sorry this is not a helpful post but just a comment that has to come out -

I am NOT in favor of BSL but it seems that something has to be done. When we oppose BSL in our communities it would be most productive imho to propose and alternative.

Not sure what that is. I imagine this forum has had this discussion in the past about this, and I will look for such.

In my community there is a danger, as I see it. A 1 year old purebred PB is up for adoption in the local pound. The card said he was a stray, so how can they know he was not agression trained? They are good skilled people down there but not animal behaviorists. And maybe I will get bonked over the head for saying this here, but I would rather they PTS in this case NOT because of his breed, but because of the sadly real possibility that slimy people have already ruined him because of his breed.

[3ofakind]

I whole heartedly agree that an alternative should be provided. We are looking for what has worked in other cases.

We already have dangerous dog laws which would have prevented this case had someone notified AC about the problem with these dogs.

As for the PB in your area, most shelters are trained to evaluate dogs for aggression and know who is adoptable and who is not regardless of breed. Unfortunately our local shelter euthanizes all PB's which is another problem we are working to rectify.

[BuddysMom]

[quote]most shelters are trained to evaluate dogs for aggression and know who is adoptable and who is not regardless of breed.[/quote]

True but imo the people at this particular shelter don't have the proper training or skills to do this. If the police K9 unit, veterinarian, or licensed animal behaviorist could make the evaluation I'd probably change my opinion, but until that happens I don't want THESE people releasing adult purebred pitbulls of unknown history into our community.

[courtnek]

Lab's are the "mistaken" breed. Their breeders pronounce them "good with kids, the perfect family dog" like Goldens, but unlike Goldens, Labs need a WHOLE LOT MORE exercise, and obedience training. I have had both. Goldens tend to be more laid back, more easy going. Labs are animals with a working drive. Although Goldens are also workers, Labs seem to need more exercise and more stimulation. This is just from my experience with them.

so you take a high energy dog, friendly or not, and put it in a low energy home, and it gets frustrated. even the most laid back lab needs to be walked and run a few times. then you treat it like a king, and suddenly you have a bored, exercise starved, thinks'he's king, dog on your hands. and Labs are very powerful, physically. so they bite. I am a low energy home. But I walk my lab mix, and have a yard and another dog for her to play in and with.

I guess I get really aggravated with the statistics, since they never take the home life into consideration. for any dog...

[kendalyn]

[quote name='desertlady']A 1 year old purebred PB is up for adoption in the local pound. The card said he was a stray, so how can they know he was not agression trained?[/quote]

What does this even mean? What is aggression training?

At one year old, this dog is basically still a puppy and most likely will do fine in a home situation.

[quote name='desertlady']I don't want THESE people releasing adult purebred pitbulls of unknown history into our community.[/quote]

Why not? Pit Bulls are often inherently dog aggressive, but should not be people aggressive. There is a huge difference. All someone needs to do is foster him for a little while and see how he does. My guess is that he will be fine and very happy to be out of the shelter.

Would you be more comfortable with him being adopted if he weren't a pit? What dogs would you be happy with the shelter "releasing into the community"? :roll:

[quote name='desertlady']And maybe I will get bonked over the head for saying this here, but I would rather they PTS in this case NOT because of his breed, but because of the sadly real possibility that slimy people have already ruined him because of his breed.[/quote]

This is just another way of saying that you want him put to sleep because he is a pit bull. Do you really think people can't "aggression train" (whatever that is) another breed of dog?

[BuddysMom]

OK, this is what I'm hoping - convince me I'm wrong (not that you've done that, but it's a start...) What did better to start changing my mind was going beck to the debate section and reading the thread "Should fighting dogs be adopted?"

"agression trained" is the wrong terminology than. I don't know what is. Of course I mean trained to fight other dogs for sport, to defend drug houses, to be vicious to anyone other than the owner, etc. And it's unfortunate but a fact that the slimeballs who do this overwhelmingly choose pit bulls to do it.

Yes this dog could be fostered, asessed by competent people, etc. and be OK. I just happen to think (from some experience with them) that the staff of this particular facility is not competent. I would like to see some better more universal standard of asessing dogs (ANY dogs) as to whether they are dangerous before adopting.

And I have gone back to edit this because I just started thinking maybe I am wrong in believeing there is an epidemic of pit bull cruelty and criminal use. Maybe it's just in Pontiac/Detroit (where I grew up?) because many people don't seem to even think it exists.

[kendalyn]

[quote name='desertlady']I would like to see some better more universal standard of asessing dogs (ANY dogs but yes especially pit bulls) as to whether they are dangerous before adopting.[/quote]

These tests are usually not great predictors of what happens when a dog is outside of a shelter situation. Dogs in a shelter are stressed and surrounded by strange people and dogs constantly. It's not a good environment for testing. In addition, the tests themselves are often biased.

[quote name='desertlady']As I said before it is not the breed, it is what people do to the breed. And there's some tragic realities there.[/quote]

And as I said before, dogs of any breed can and are mistreated. You can't assume that just because a dog may be a pit bull that it automatically is going to be trained for aggression. Pit bulls generally are not effective as guard dogs or protection dogs anyway.

Am I mistaken in thinking that you just recently got a dog that came from a shelter and than was subsequently mistreated by the person who adopted him? What makes your dog safer for you to adopt than a pit bull from the same situation?

[BuddysMom]

Kendalyn, please go back, I edited this post in the meantime. One thing I omitted was "especially pit bulls". I regret this comment and don't really believe it.

I also added a paragraph.

Buddy was neglected (of course that is mistreatment) but he was not trained to guard a drug house, fight other dogs for human profit, etc. And if he had been I would not be the tight one to handle him (though I'm sure there are some special people who would be).

[courtnek]

it does exist, and not just in Detroit Metro. However, Detroit has one of the worst dog fighting problems in the country. Since this is a puppy, the odds are good it can be rehomed. If you dont like the people at the shelter handling it, you could call rescue societies to see if they will take and adopt out the dog. IMO, the big problem we are seeing with Pit's is that, in a lot of cases, they're NOT. I am fairly dog knowledgeable, but I took a test (someone put it up here) to see if I could "find the Pit Bull" out of about a dozen pictures. I didnt get it right til the third or fourth try. There are so many dogs that look similar to Pit's, and that doesnt even include the Pit mixes. I personally feel the mixes may be a big part of the problem, the well bred true APBT will not harm a person under normal circumstances. But any abused, starved, and mistreated animal can turn on a human. It's not just Pit's. The other problem as I see it is in the reporting of incidents. It's gotten so any flat-faced dog with a barrel chest and shorter legs is automatically a "Pit".....In reality it could be a Heinz 57 of Pekignese, dachsund, bulldog and standard poodle. it doesnt matter. If it has that face it will be called a Pit.

thanks for taking the time to check into and think about this. We need more people on our side (And I dont own, and have never owned a Pit, but BSL is wrong. It gives the govt more power than I feel they should have to decide what kinds of dogs we can/cant have)

:)

[BuddysMom]

[quote]If you dont like the people at the shelter handling it, you could call rescue societies to see if they will take and adopt out the dog.[/quote]

That's a great idea. He is a beautiful animal, I could try this. I did persue it through American Foxhound Rescue with Lilly (the one you advised me on) ... I also talked the excellent "no kill" shelter in town into taking her on if she was not adopted by the time she's through with her New Leash on Life obedience training.

[quote]IMO, the big problem we are seeing with Pit's is that, in a lot of cases, they're NOT.[/quote]

This also reminds me of the experience with Lilly, because after I sent her picture out to the AF rescue they told me she was not even an AF but a Walker Coonhound.

[ellieangel]

[quote]so you take a high energy dog, friendly or not, and put it in a low energy home, and it gets frustrated. even the most laid back lab needs to be walked and run a few times. then you treat it like a king, and suddenly you have a bored, exercise starved, thinks'he's king, dog on your hands. and Labs are very powerful, physically. so they bite. I am a low energy home. But I walk my lab mix, and have a yard and another dog for her to play in and with. [/quote]

It's the same with Springers Courtnek,they are getting to be a very popular breed round here and the springer rescues are bursting at the seams :(

[Canis erectus]

I would like to include that Pit Bulls and other similar dogs do not as a whole have aggression towards humans inherant in their breeding. These types of dogs who have been bred for dog fighting at some point in their past (and present) would have been bred to have the upmost respect for humans so as their handlers could fish them out of the pit during the middle of a fight without fear of being attacked.

I think it may be possible that alot of these urban 'crime life' Pit Bulls are actually crossbreeds called Rock Dogs. Don't know a whole lot about them but they are a Pit Bull/Rottweiller crossbreed that first appeared in the Detroit area something like 20 years ago to protect the inner city drug houses. I've only seen a couple pictures of them but I could see how they could easily be mistaken for a large Pit Bull, and given the drive of the Pit and the protective nature of the Rottie in the wrong hands they would be quite dangerous dogs. I don't know if these dogs are really around much any more, but I kind of have a half theory that many of these vicious Pit Bulls could actually be Rock Dogs or the descendants thereof.

[courtnek]

I can agree with that. Pit Bulls were bred to be human-tolerant, for just those reasons. I dont like the reasons, but thats neither here nor there.

I strongly feel that if you breed a Pit to a more people-aggresive dog you will end up with what we have now. the Pit's natural inclination to be human tolerant is now gone. The guard dog instinct has a big part of the personality.

you end up with an aggressive dog (from both sides) that does not have the Pit's bred-in tolerance for people.

[gooeydog]

The link to the story didn't work, asked for a login.

This site: [url]http://www.understand-a-bull.com/[/url] has lots of pit bull info and even a page (with printable booklets) especially for fighting BSL.

You can also try contacting the ADOA (American Dog Owners' Association, [url]http://www.adoa.org[/url] ), hopefully they can help, even if just to help get the word out. I would ask them if they can give you any info as to the ineffectiveness of BSL, as I know at least one has been working hard trying to get a breed ban repealled due to ineffectiveness.

Check to see what sort of dog laws are already on the books in your area, and maybe suggest better enforcement or better generic dangerous dog laws (depending on how good the current laws are) as a better alternative to BSL.

Good to see you back!

Desertlady, there already are laws on the books in most places that would prevent quite a few dog attacks from occurring. Leash laws, if enforced, would keep strays from attacking people, forming packs and terrorizing people, or attacking peoples' pets. There are also dangerous dog laws that cover all breeds, labeling a dog as dangerous if it has bitten, or is known to show aggression towards people. How many times have you read of dozens of people coming forward after a dog attack to say, "I knew that dog was dangerous, he's always out roaming and has growled at me x times... I knew someone was going to be hurt by him"? If you know a dog to pose a real threat to people, don't sit back and wait for it to kill someone, report it and see to it that it's checked into. Another thing is that animal control is often non-responsive to complaints, brushing people off with a, "can't do anything until someone's been bitten" or "well, if you want to catch the dog and hold it until someone can pick it up...". If they'd paid more attention to complaints by people in that apartment complex in SF., CA, that woman would never have been killed by the Presas a few years ago. I've called myself a few times about loose, aggressive acting dogs approaching myself or my dogs, and everytime I've been fed the "can't do anything until they actually harm someone" line of BS. There needs to be more public awareness as to how to prevent dog attacks, and what to do about possibly dangerous dogs, as well as more effort put out on the part of the government to follow up on reports of dangerous dogs.

To add to the above, if AC can't even enforce a leash law (how hard can it be; dog on leash- good job, dog not on leash- ticket), how are they supposed to enforce BSL which will require them to actually go out and ID dogs as x banned/restricted breed, file paperwork, take dog, fine owner (if they actually do)?

[quote]The card said he was a stray, so how can they know he was not agression trained?[/quote]
How do they know any dog coming in as a stray isn't aggression trained? People will use whatever is available if they want to make a nasty dog, it just happens that pits are pretty easy to come by these days. That's not to say though that a GSD mix (for example) or any other dog can't have been abused, "trained" to guard, or seen a few impromptu street fights in its time. Sure, this dog could have an ugly past behind him, but so could (and do) any other strays coming in off the streets. The other night while walking our older APBT, some kids (16 yrs old or so now) were out sitting at the school and when they saw us started talking amongst themselves about dogs, speculating as to whether one of their dogs (a young GSD mix) "could kick that dog's a**", and recanting the scraps he's been in. This dog could easily end up in a shelter and be adopted out, as from what I've seen, he has an ok temperament, despite that fact that he doesn't get treated so well. If a person doesn't know enough about dogs to evaluate (at least basic temperament wise) a pit bull, they really don't have much business doing so with any dog. A dog with a bad temperament is a dog with a bad temperament, no matter the breed. In the same, a dog with a good temperament is just that, no matter its breed or past. This page (at the bottom, rescue stories) has some stories of rescued pit bulls that have suffered from horrible abuse or neglect in some cases, yet still have the good temperament typical of the breed: [url]http://www.pbrc.net/smile/happyend.html[/url].

As far as "aggression training", pit bulls will fight without training, though some ignorant owners certainly do think they must train their dog to fight by baiting it, beating it, etc. This generally doesn't make a better fighting dog, just a more abused and beaten up dog. The question with this would be as with any other abused dog.... is this dog still mentally sound enough to adopt out safely? The other two things you included, trained to guard and be vicious to anyone but their owner.... well, they would be quite obvious in most cases, as a dog that can't be touched by anyone or that guards its kennel with a vengeance is not a good adoption cantidate, regardless of breed.

[DogPaddle]

[quote]I am NOT in favor of BSL but it seems that something has to be done. When we oppose BSL in our communities it would be most productive imho to propose and alternative. [/quote]

I applaud this. We do need to come up with viable alternatives that municipalities will accept and be able to feasably enact.

[courtnek]

[quote name='DogPaddle'][quote]I am NOT in favor of BSL but it seems that something has to be done. When we oppose BSL in our communities it would be most productive imho to propose and alternative. [/quote]

I applaud this. We do need to come up with viable alternatives that municipalities will accept and be able to feasably enact.[/quote]

and therein lies the whole problem. There are things that can be done, but no one wants to do them because it would end up costing more money than proclaiming a ban. Even if they could actually enforce a ban (which would only affect the honest, decent people. the crack dealers will find a way around it, believe me) it has been shown (primarily in CO) that it doesnt effectively work. People who really want to keep their dogs, move.
or walk them at night. keep them out of site. I have heard of people taking their dogs to vets in different area's and using a friends address.
there are always ways around it. and its not solving the problem.

while not popular with everyone - these are some of the idea's I have proposed in the past - to the local govt and senate.

1. ALL breeders must be licesnsed, renewable every year. the licensing fee would depend on the "output"...smaller kennels would have a smaller licensing fee.

2. if you are NOT a licensed breeder, or AKC registered and showing the dog, it must be neutered. period. no exceptions. That can be any registered show dog, I only use AKC as an example. This could be tracked the same way they now track rabies vacs, the vets work with the county.
there are very few animals that will not need to see a vet at some time,
and rabies vacs are mandatory here.

3. In order to buy or adopt a dog, a test is necessary on your skills of dog ownership. (I had to take one to adopt Laurel). At least a miniimal course in basic obedience is required if you are a first time dog owner. Many shelters already require this, and if the person really wants the dog they will comply in most cases.

this wont resolve every problem. the fact is there will always be problem dogs who are or become unstable. that cant be prevented. but, if all three of those guidelines are employed and enforced, the BYBing would be
greatly reduced, puppy mills would be greatly reduced, and most people would have at least a basic understanding of the workings and needs of
their dogs. this is not a cure-all, but it is a start. The "up" side to this, at least the first two, is that it will generate revenue. if you dont get your rabies vacs done in a certain amount of time here, the fine grows
exponentially, and they will take the dog for non-compliance. The same can be enacted for non-compliance with neutering.

some people will say this is a violation of their rights, and that it puts a burden on the taxpayers. I say not so. The neutering is a one-time cost, which most vets wil let you make payments on, and there are free neuter
places available. as far as the breeding, it might just make some of the
BYB's decide against doing it. The real breeders, who care about their dogs and their lines, will not object. At least not the ones I've talked to.
They are tired of seeing all the bad press about their dogs, caused by
greed and peoples stupidity. I also think the breeders license should include an inspection of the kennel and the dogs. The puppymillers will lose on that one.

One other thought. There are laws in most places in this country where it is forbidden to marry and produce offspring within a certain genetic line...you cant marry your sister, your first cousin, your father or mother, etc. these laws came into affect because it was determined that inbreeding causes mental and physical instability. These children were often irrational, mentally handicapped, and physically very sick. sound familiar?

8)

[imported_Debbie]

:D Erin !!! So nice to see a fellow JRT lover posting again !!!
How are those Jacks ??? I'd love to see up-dated photo's of your gang !! :wink:

Sorry I can't help with advice on the topic but I'm sure you'll get lots of good advice from the others with more knowledge on the subject !! :wink:

[DogPaddle]

Cournek - Your #1 and #2 points might be just as ingnored by the bad breeders as any other law wouldn't they?

[size=2]I'm not trying to be argumentive. I would like to see a realistic, best case scenario worked out so I just want to make sure we get a good idea and then I'll mail Mr. Bryant a dozen copies of our suggestions.[/size]

[courtnek]

absolutely. yes, they could be. But in my experience, once it becae the law the majority of people will obey it. Not all, but even if the majority. we are still in the lead. I said it would not resolve the entire issue. If we can get 75% we're doing real well..

[DogPaddle]

I'd like to see only licenced breeders breeding but last time this was suggested some of our good, registered breeders made some objections. Do you recall what they were Courtnek? I had really thought that was a good option - would really limit BYBers, might make litters more expensive due to licencing costs but that's not so bad. I like the idea of graduated licencing as well. Anyone have any feedback.

[3ofakind]

Gooey!! Thanks a million for the links. They will be priceless to us.

Debbie, nice to see you too!! Too bad I got banned at JRO, miss alot of my friends but certainly dont miss Bill. You do know that many of us hang out at [url]www.jrtzone.com[/url] now right? You should stop by and say hi if you get the chance. Kisses to the babies!

And to address the "side" conversation going on here. Can you please start another thread to talk about this for millionth time! You hijacked my thread and it is distracting.

[DogPaddle]

sorry

[BuddysMom]

Sorry too about hijacking the thread. As a relative newbie I'm just figuring out that the "thing" that's been gone over a million times can be read about ad nauseum in previous threads.

However this "thing" is important and it raises emotions (children getting killed!!!! And people's rights being threatened....)

But I for one am going to just read these other posts, past and present, trying not to add my $.02 because the real pleasure and usefulness of Dogo for me is the health / care / training advice, and the comeraderie with people who TRULY love dogs and do not view and treat them merely as status symbols.

OK, getting off my soapbox and going into my garden now...

[courtnek]

sorry 3, didnt mean to hijack your thread. it just sort of evolved this way...