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Breeders Do You Cull Puppies.


anne3149

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This subject came up on another forum. It was stated that breeders of the not so popular breeds (Afghans and Bloodhounds were mentioned) are breeding to keep the blood lines going and killing the pups that are either not show prospects or, later in the life of the pup, if they can't be sold, they are killed.

Hypothetically, if there are 10 in the litter and they can only place 4, the other 6 are killed. Some are killed at birth and others allowed to grow a little older in the hope they will be sold or maybe turn out to be a show prospect.

My personal opinion is that if no one wants to own a particular breed then the breeders should not be breeding them only to kill them because there are no homes. These breeders know their breed is not popular before they decide to mate the dogs.

These are perfectly healthy puppies, not the ones with health problems.
I got seriously flamed for disagreeing with their practises.

It is sad to see a breed die out but there is a use by date on all things in life and if no one wants to own a particular breed anymore then why breed them to kill them just to try and keep a breed going.

I wonder should I have put this question in the debates section of the forum. If the mods think so then please move the post.

.

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Sounds pretty wrong to me, though from what you say, Anne, it appears to be a common practice? It's very disturbing and heartbreaking. What's wrong with evolution?
Though who is to say it's any worse than breeding dogs for money, or whatever other dumb reason, and leaving them at the shelter to be euthanased, or dumping them by the side of the road to either turn feral and kill wildlife and livestock or get run over, caught in kangaroo traps, etc...?
I don't know. Both are as bad as each other but the show breeder should really know better, or at least you'd think so. :-?

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Strictly speaking, culling doesn't necessarily mean killing, a lot of breeders use it incorrectly. Culling does mean to reject as inferior quality, which in dog breeding, should mean pet puppies, unless you're brilliant and lucky and have a litter of all show quality pups *G*. In which case they're put on a non-breeding agreement and fixed as soon as possible. So they are culled out of the gene pool, but they still live long happy lives as pampered beasts.

As for breeders who kill their pups outside of major physical defects (beyond blindness/deafness-for which I don't think killing a pup is necessary) I seriously disagree. I know it's a common practice in many breeders, I think even still a few breed clubs (such as the SV-German GSD club) I know in many older breeding and breed books I have, the recommend killing puppies if the litter is too big so as to not drain resources. However given that these books are often over 50 years old, I can see where they are coming from not having the technology we have.

My GSD was from a litter of fourteen. He had to be handfed after two weeks as there wasn't milk enough left for him. He has turned out to be one of the largests and certainly strongest member of that litter.

I think if you breed it, you care for it. If you're goofy enough to breed two merles, you care for the pups that turn out deaf or blind. If you have a breed that generally has large litters, buy some stock in formula and be prepared to keep a few if you can't find homes. Ideally you should have homes found already, but life is not ideal. If I bred a litter and I couldn't place puppies...well it looks like I'm going to go broke feeding six Newf puppies at once lol, but they'll be fed and trained and loved until I can find suitable homes for them and then it's my business to see to it that they're thriving.

You take on a responsibility to your puppies to ensure that they live long, full, healthy and happy lives, from the day they are conceived til they die.

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I have a friend who breeds bloodhounds. His are prize winners, and have been in the winners circles many times. The ones that dont "cut it" that he cant adopt out. he keeps. and neuters. The problem is, as he tells me, that bloodhounds are not real popular as "family pets". They arent "cute", they really do need to work, they are very large. Not at the top of the pet list.

also, alot of people mistakenly belive that bloodhounds kill their human quarry when they catch them. patently untrue. they simply lead the police or the trackers to the people. they dont attack people, but they will hold them, and annoy them to death with that bay (I have a foxhound, I can sympathize) until the authorities get there. They arent easy to place as pets. I dont know if Afghans are the same or not.

He owns a restaurant now, and has a room in the back (like a screened in
area, like McDonalds has for the play room) where the dogs he keeps as pets are kept with him all day. People can go out there an meet them, and play with them. they're very gentle, lovable old coots....

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[quote name='nea']I was discusted when I heard of mouse breeders culling the males since they are harder to sell than the females. And doing it to DOGS?? Its awful... :cry: :x[/quote]
Why would anyone care if their mouse is a male or female? We had a mouse once and I had no clue if it were male or female.

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[quote]I agree with Shenanigans version of Culling, that's what I understand it to mean as well. Dogs not up to scratch are crossed off the breeding program and placed in pet homes.[/quote]

In most instances I think that is what breeders mean when they refer to culling. However from Anne's post I don't think that is the case with the specifc breeds she is talking about. It seems that since the breeds are not that popular, pet homes can not always be found.

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Guest Mutts4Me

I have always heard of "culling" as killing/euthanizing/letting die the weakest and/or the ones that don't fit the standard. I first heard of it in the fish world. Siamese Fighting Fish can lay 500 eggs at one time, which would be next to impossible to care for (especially since at a couple months of age, all the males have to be separated from the group and cared for individually), so it's very common for them to either start picking out the smalelst ones, or perhaps "testing" them so that only the strongest survive.

I have heard of breeders culling (in the true sense of the word) their dogs. A coworker of mine knows a breeder of parti-colored cockers, and she honestly culls all the non parti puppies in the litter. I think it's horrendous, and that the other "version" of culling mentioned in this thread (neutering as pets) is a perfectly good alternative, but I guess others disagree.

I have heard Hmmmm mention culling several times, saying that she and other good APBT breeders cull heavily. Maybe if she's around she can shed more light on it.

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[quote name='Matty']I thought every hill billy down south had a blood hound :o this is not true???? :lol:
That is how I always pictute a bloodhound, sitting faithfully beside its owner who is drinking moon shine with a big rifle in his arm. All this while he is rocking in his rocking chair.[/quote]

Hey, we DO have internet access down here and some of us can even read. :x

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[quote name='Cairn6'][quote name='nea']I was discusted when I heard of mouse breeders culling the males since they are harder to sell than the females. And doing it to DOGS?? Its awful... :cry: :x[/quote]
Why would anyone care if their mouse is a male or female? We had a mouse once and I had no clue if it were male or female.[/quote]

Because mice are are happiest living together with other mice, so unless you plan to care for a couple hundred mice its best to get a same-sex pair. :wink: Male mice smell more too, so if you're wanting the more odor-free gender its better to get females. :D

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At one time breeders used to cull mismarked or not typical colored pups. I remember one breeder who had a few patch puppy dalmations PTS due to this being a major fault in the Dalmation. At one time she tried to place a few of these pups in pet homes, the owners started taking them in parades etc. word got out where the pups came from and her kennel was disdained by other breeders and show people. Basically it was keep your dirty little secrets well hidden. I have also dealt with many breeders of boxers who will have white boxer pups euthanized when born due to the health issues they experience.

As for keeping a breed going and culling to control the excess. I think this is silly. If a breed is no longer popular then let it go, we have new breeds popping up every day there is no need to hold on to an aritficially inbreed small population of dogs as some sort of historic reminder of what we once had. Every purebreed was created by man by taking mongrels and inbreeding them to create a certain look and motor pattern and also hard wired behaviors which were perfect for a "certain" job. Human lifestyles have changed, so there fore dogs which may have been a bonus for us at one time are just not required any longer.
Its not as if these purebreds are a seperate species which we have to perserve from extinction :lol: possibly if we ever wanted that look again we could just cross breed until we get that look again.

Just my humble opinion, not always the popular one :wink:

As far as modern breeders, any one I know who breeds have waiting lists. Some customers have been waiting for a pup for as long as 2 years. Breeders will sell pet quality and if they cannot keep all of the show quality they place them at no charge in homes of people who they have easy access to. Some times the pups which are kept are co-owned by more than one breeder, or they will sell a show quality pup to a customer and be their mentor.
Also today, mismarked or inproper colored pups are not destroyed, it happens and they are sold as pet quality.

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[quote name='Horsefeathers!'][quote name='Matty']I thought every hill billy down south had a blood hound :o this is not true???? :lol:
That is how I always pictute a bloodhound, sitting faithfully beside its owner who is drinking moon shine with a big rifle in his arm. All this while he is rocking in his rocking chair.[/quote]

Hey, we DO have internet access down here and some of us can even read. :x[/quote]

Hear Hear!! :x :-? :roll:
[size=2]Ga born and forced to move :( [/size]

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In the instance meant in my original post the term 'culling' refers to the actual killing of pups or in some cases older dogs who do not sell or are not show prospects.

I see nothing wrong with 'culling' in the sense that breeders will desex their dogs and 'cull' them from the breeding process and either sell them or keep them and have them desexed. It is the killing of deliberately bred dogs that I am against.

I was horrified that a breeder knows their bitch will produce 10-12 pups but they they only had homes for 3 or 4 so the rest were killed either shortly after birth or at a later date if the pups were not sold.

I also do not agree that breeders should deliberately breed and then take the surplus pups to a shelter. The shelters are overflowing with dogs who have been neglected/abandoned looking for homes without breeders adding to the numbers.

Surely a breeder is responsible for the lives he/she decides to bring into this world and if they know their breed is not popular then don't breed the bitch at all just to kill her puppies.

Thanks to all for not flaming me here. I was seriously flamed on the other forum. The breeders closed ranks and attacked, telling me that I was not a breeder so could not speak from experience. I don't think you need to be a breeder to disagree with the killing of a planned breeding.

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[quote]Matty wrote:
I thought every hill billy down south had a blood hound this is not true????
That is how I always pictute a bloodhound, sitting faithfully beside its owner who is drinking moon shine with a big rifle in his arm. All this while he is rocking in his rocking chair.


Hey, we DO have internet access down here and some of us can even read.[/quote]

I did not intend to sound mean with this statement. I guess I was just thinking about the beverly hill billys (the show on TV). The first of the show shows the star hillbilly with his blood hound and rifle. I thought it was just kinda funny. I was not steriotyping. No offense was intended with this statement. I was trying in a weird way to be funny :oops:

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I pictured the same thing you did. Jed Clampet and Granny...but it is unfortonate that people dont realize how gentle and loving these dogs are.
Bloodhounds will literally lay around in the sun with you, rifle or not, and just go with it. they can hunt, or they can sleep. Mark says they prefer sleeping...they are just gentle giants....

8)

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