Prong and shock collars... am I misunderstanding?

[Seijun]

Sometimes it depends on the dog's pain tollerance. Some dogs just don't care or notice unless the collar is set high. Some dogs are more sensitive and work well with a lower setting. It might also depend on the brand of collar you use. The shock should not be extremely painful for a dog though. It should be more of an 'uncomfortable' sort of pain, more like a mild bee sting.

~Seij

[KP]

[quote name='StarFox'] KP I have to resectfully disagree with your post. I have a huge problem with his "methods" weather they be for the working dog or not.[/quote]

Thats cool. :D You are more than free to your opinion of course. I understand and appreciate where you are coming from completely. Thank you for disagreeing politely :D

Like I said I don't agree with everything there but in some ways there are things I understand to some degree in other areas.

In anycase, back to the topic :P , the chick who is training this dog is WAY off the mark and I wouldn't want her within a foot of my dogs. :-?

[Net_Kitten]

I personally have never tried the prong collar, but recently purchased a shock collar for my dobie.
In doors shes easily trained..very food motivated. But watch out if she gets a few inches between the door and you, youll be off to the races.

At first she was just running around the neighborhood and we could eventually catch her. Now she ventures off and crosses major roads :(
The last time she crossed 3 times, ignoring all of my commands.

I decided to purchase a shock collar with a remote and multiple settings. The only thing we use it for is yard boundaries, not any other correction.
We take her around the yard and if she steps into the street then we use it.
I tried it on my leg when we first got it. on setting 1-4 I felt NOTHING, on 5 it did not hurt but definately was uncomfortable! I did not try the other settings and dont plan to use them.

So far she is "getting it". She hasnt got out since we bought it so I cant say if she will [i]forget[/i] when she does, but if so Ill go trucking behind her with the remote, attempting to stop her before she crosses another road.

Ive never been one to think Id purchase a shock collar, but I felt it was this, or eventually the dog would be run over. So far Im happy with my decision. [/i]

[pitbullEmily]

[quote name='Net_Kitten']I personally have never tried the prong collar, but recently purchased a shock collar for my dobie.
In doors shes easily trained..very food motivated. But watch out if she gets a few inches between the door and you, youll be off to the races.

At first she was just running around the neighborhood and we could eventually catch her. Now she ventures off and crosses major roads :(
The last time she crossed 3 times, ignoring all of my commands.

I.../i][/quote]

I'm not sure you were being fair to your dog.
It doesn't sound like you ever taught her a "stay" or "come" command. Yet you expected her to obey in very challenging situations.

That's not the best way, in my opinion, to build a relationship with your dog. Sure, you can now get her to obey, having "shocked" her. For some dogs, this kind of correction is not a problem. For others, it would be a real abuse of trust.

So I don't think ecollars are the first place to start with 99% of dogs.

I don't think prong collars are abusive, used properly... certainly no more abusive than head halter type set ups which many dogs absolutely hate.

Clicker training (operant conditioning) is a fabulous way to train and build a relationship with your dog, for those who have the patience and commitment to stick to it. But I've never been convinced that it works for aversive situations ("no, you may NOT do that"). And most sensible clicker trainers don't believe in "purely positve/no correction" training

[Net_Kitten]

She ignores ALL commands when she gets loose and starts to run. In doors or on a leash she obeys, off leash she runs like a race horse and ignores ALL commands.
I didnt feel I had any other choice at this point.

[Beautiful Border Collie]

[quote]I tried every method out there before going with the prong and I have to tell you it really does seem more humane than the halti or choke[/quote]

The halti is like a harness that a horse wears. Wherever the nose goes, the animal will follow. I have used these for years. They are not uncomfortable,like the prong collar. My dog HATES the prong collar. I only use it on walks where people also walk there dogs and for some reason they cant read the sign DOGS MUST BE LEASHED :roll:
The prong collar hurts a little, and it can hurt a lot too. The halti, IMO cant hurt, i just dont see how.
As for the shock collar. I have also used that for years. The reason i started was my male border collie went mad and crazy when we would put him in his kennel. Nobody could come near the kennel. That was MY FAULT. I used the kennel as a punishment when he was a pup. I know, i was stupid. My other dogs have no problem with their kennels. I have since learned.

[gooeydog]

[quote name='Beautiful Border Collie']The halti is like a harness that a horse wears. Wherever the nose goes, the animal will follow. I have used these for years. They are not uncomfortable,like the prong collar. My dog HATES the prong collar. I only use it on walks where people also walk there dogs and for some reason they cant read the sign DOGS MUST BE LEASHED :roll:
The prong collar hurts a little, and it can hurt a lot too. The halti, IMO cant hurt, i just dont see how.[/quote]
Dog, like people, have different comfort levels. What you may find pretty comfortable, I may find downright uncomfortable; what your dog doesn't mind, my dog might. I tried a Halti on our older APBT, Goo, took several weeks to acclimate her to it, made it a positive experience, etc.... and she still doesn't like it. She doesn't mind it too much so long as I don't actually apply any pressure at all to the lead, which is kind of defeating the purpose of such a device. If I make the mistake of "arguing" the point, she'll plant her feet, roll her eyes, pull her head down, and start trying to back up to still get to where she wants to be. If that's unsuccessful, she starts digging to remove the halti. Now, I can say "no" and pull her head up all I want, but one quick swipe to the wrong spot in her frustration, and she'll put her eyeball out. When I walk her on the Halti, she's head down, tail down (except when she's fighting it), not really enjoying herself at all.

After seeing how unsuccessful the Halti was at getting what I needed (she was acting like a savage when we'd pass certain dogs in yards, usually these dogs would be runnign the fence and carrying on too, so that only made it more fun for her to do the same), I switched to using a prong collar on her. Sure, it's uncomfortable when she's being corrected, but it's not simply by being present, as the halti was. She already had an acceptable alternative to lunging at dogs in yards (I let her pull on the leash until we're by them, one of her favorite things), so it was just a matter of reminding her that pulling away from dogs is a lot more fun than pulling towards them. Took all of 10 times out to get that message across, and then I weaned her back over to her regular collar.

In her case, the Halti was much more aversive than the prong collar, so I chose what worked best for her. Different dogs, different training needs.

[pyrless]

i just wanted to say that i really like reading everyone's opinion and the fact that you all are respectful of one another.
i think it not only depends on the dog, but on what you want to accomplish with the dog. i have used the choke collar (after being taught how to properly put it on the dog and how to "snap" it as a correction) on two dogs that were particularly stubborn but ONLY as a correction, and coupled with "No". ie when they were doing something that they were not supposed to, as opposed to snapping the collar if they refused to sit for example. It's a fine distinction, I know. But I have had dogs who were so easy going that a simple "No" would do. Also I tend to gravitate towards "stubborn" or "independent" dogs :roll: and have a pretty realistic expectation that they are not going to heel or do a long down-stay, which is ok with me as long as they know the basics. I find body harnesses great for walking, by the way, it redistributes their weight at the end of the leash so there is less pulling, and you don't get the assumption from some of the more ignorant folks, that the halti is a muzzle and your dog is "dangerous". Anyway, that is my 4 or 5 cents! Good luck to all!

[DogPaddle]

[quote]The halti is like a harness that a horse wears. Wherever the nose goes, the animal will follow. I have used these for years. They are not uncomfortable,like the prong collar.[/quote]

First let me say that I tested the prong on myself before I ever put it on my dog. I tested it against the INSIDE of my wrist and against Pik's neck - he's so helpful. We pulled fairly hard and it is uncomfortable but does not cause what I would consider real pain.

While I agree that the prong may be more uncomfortable than the halti during an average correction I do not agree that the halti is comfortable. It seems to cause Zaphod irritation wear it sits across the bridge of his nose. Due to this irriation he will dig at it and, if adjusted properly, there is some play in a halti/gl, therefor he is able to move it and sometimes it rests near his eyes. In fact the halti or GL (I've tried both and had both fitted by a trainer) irritates him so much that after 2 min with the thing on he freaks out and digs and pulls doing damage to his own face in his desperation to get it off. Additionally, he does not notice the prong at all when we are just walking nicely.

I think the difference in experiences is probably due to differences in dogs - type of stop on dogs head, thickness of coat around neck, dogs personal preference, much like Gooeydog suggested.

Pyrless - Tell me more about the harness. I've tried the loopi wich is a type of harness and it didn't seem to reduce pulling. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

[pyrless]

hi dog paddle!
i use a Comfort Wrap harness which is really strong but easy to adjust. i am not familiar with the type you are describing. The D-Rings for the leash on the Comfort Wrap end up almost in the middle of the dog's back, so I think this helps with redistributing the weight. It is also a pretty heavy nylon harness, not to the point of being uncomfortable, but for some reason I think that helps? I don't think you are doing anything wrong! Have you tried the changing directions thing for getting them to stop pulling, ie if they pull one way, you turn and go the other? This really helped with my Pyr and only took about a week for her to catch on. Hope this helps!

[Carolk9s]

With a prong collar, Brittany can CHOOSE whether or not she wishes to be uncomfortable. She learned VERY quickly that if she leaned into the prong, she did not like how it felt. Therefore, she RARELY leans into the collar anymore. She will attempt to shove her head into her prong collar and prance about when it is on, therefore I seriously doubt she is in pain or is fearful of a correction.
Different strokes for different folks.

[DogPaddle]

Thanks Pyrless. I do the turning thing (but the tree method doesn't work for us.) Maybe I'll try a different harness, I find having a variety of heeling/no pull training tools and methods helps.

[MajiesMom]

When I got Magic she was one years old and dog aggressive and not trained and I started her out with a Halti, actually I started her out on a harness but for obvious reasons that did not work! To bad because how can a harness be harmful? Almost every time I took her out for a walk she would get out of her Halti. I found out later that the Gentle Leader, similar to the Halti, was more difficult for a dog to get out of. So next it was the GL. The GL was okay but we were not moving forward in anyway with her OB or her aggression towards other dogs. She also hated it and would shut down, would not want to go anywhere and just try to paw it off. It made her very frustrated and I feel it escalated her dog aggression. Took awhile but I decided to use a Prong collar. After a couple walks and a couple pops on the pinch collar she was cured for pulling on the leash. I could walk her with lots of slack finally!..only took a year.
That was really hard though going to the prong collar, I decided from the beginning that a couple good corrections are better then a thousand nagging ones.
I continue to use the prong just because she goes wild when we seen another dog and she needs a correction to behave civilized in public. It does its job with sending her a clear message that her aggressive behavior is not acceptable. Overall I am happy with my decision to use it, I couldn’t use anything else so I have to be. She seems to love her prong collar because she goes crazy when I pull it out, dancing around like a monkey and wagging her tail all excited. :D