Prong and shock collars... am I misunderstanding?

[Horsefeathers!]

I know the whole prong/shock thing has been done to death, but I still want to ask. For those who advocate them, are they considered as a last resort, or a first? I'm not an all or nothing purist who believes that there is a one size fits all training solution for all dogs, but am I wrong in assuming that prong/shock collars are to be used only when other more positive methods of training have failed?

The reason I ask is because there is a girl on another board who is getting ready to take in her first foster dog. She has only met the dog once very briefly and is already going on about training him by using clickers, prongs and shock collars. She says she's used prong collars on her own dog since day one which leads me to believe that was her training method of choice from the beginning.

I honestly want to be fair before engaging in a debate, in case I'm missing something. I just think that resorting to any kind of pain training (or discomfort, or whatever) FIRST is just plain wrong. It was stated in the post that, according to the people who have the dog now, this foster is very food reward oriented, so I don't know why she thinks she needs to jump right into prong collars FIRST.

Am I missing something? If I'm wrong, I'll apologize to her (not that I blatantly attacked her, but did openly question it). To be totally honest, my opinion is this.... jumping right into prongs, shockers and such immediately before even considering other options is, in itself, misuse of these tools. Of course, to be fair, I'm not a huge fan of these training tools, anyway, so I'm already a bit opinionated. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had some huge lumbering beast dragging me into traffic, but I've never had that problem and even still, it brings me back to my original point which is that it would be the LAST thing I would try, not the FIRST.

What say you, the jury? 8)

[Bubblezzz]

I share your view.

Using negative reinforcement or worse, positive punishment, on a dog who is responsive to positive training just feels plain wrong. :-? It's my belief that using two methods only serves to confuse the dog. I mean, one moment we're happily playing, learning cool tricks and getting praise & food and the next moment I get zapped because I don't respond as fast or as well as you'd like?!! :o

I think negative tools have their place in dog training, but only as a LAST RESORT. :-?

Negative training tools are too easily mis-used as it is. With positive reinforcement, the worst mis-use of, say, a clicker, would be ZERO progress in training, a darn confused dog & a frustrated owner. :lol: But because of it's very POSITIVE nature, the dog won't end up the victim of it's trainer's shortcomings. However, with say, an e-collar, repercussions of mis-use might include fear and/or aggression OR WORSE from the dog. :o

[MajiesMom]

You're right she should probably get the dog first and work with him then evaluate why type of training tool to use.

I don't think its the rule :) but usually you start off with positive methods then move on to a prong collar as a last resort. Shock collars scare me to death. :cry:

[imported_Cassie]

I agree with you HF.
The only other thing I can add to this is I wouldn't even use a shock or prong collar as a last resort. I have seen dogs become much much worse with the use of a shock collar. As for Prong collars, I don't like them...and none of my friends who have been training and breeding dogs for years..some over 50 years...they do not like Prong collars either.

We are asking our dogs to do some very undog like things...such as healing, sit when owner stops etc. if you make it fun for the dog they will learn because they want to please you...not because they are avoiding a punishment. Dogs taught with positive only training are easier to work with, are able to learn more and want to learn. Dogs taught with negetive training techniques learn quickly as well..but, they are learning by avoidance techniques...this leads to the dog not enjoying training and come to distrust their owners.
I have rescued many dogs which could not be placed in normal homes due to behavioral problems. I have created wonderful, obedient dogs out of these wild things :wink: also owning 6 dogs, I can't always keep them on lead (I walk in the country) so for me positive only training has been the best choice I could have made. I can recall my Rottie from a potential rabbit chase, when I need to cross a pulp road I ask all of my dogs to heal so they are all with me when we cross...or if I hear an ATV coming I ask my dogs to heal until the ATV is gone. Positive only training is a no fail training method...for starters in the past with some dogs I trained using negetive training techniques, they may have been a little hesitant to come running right back to me right away, or perhaps pull on the lead when they felt they could get away with it.
There is nothing more enjoyable than taking your dog into an obedience trial and every one wanting to watch your dog as it is having so much fun.

[MajiesMom]

Is it the same person that posted on the Leerburg BB yesterday, she's going to foster a hound/Dobie X. She sounds so clueless.

[piperstubbys]

Personally I have no problem with a Prong collar used in training IN THE RIGHT HANDS, as long as someone has training on how to use it and isn't using it in a harsh way then I don't have a problem. We have used prongs at some point with all three of ours, one of those is a foster pup who has had no leash training and is pulling very bad. With the prong she is doing much better, never has she benn hurt and never ever would we pull on her with the prong, if used correctly they should not ever put the dog in pain, just uncomfortable.
As far as the shock collar, we recently bought one and will be working on some training with it. This is after tons of training with our dogs but one of them has major recall issues so this is a last resort. This shock collar will be used, probably briefly, on one of our dogs and then used on the other for probably a bit longer than the first because of his temperment. It will never ever be used on our foster at all because I know it would cause her to regress. We plan on trying it only on vibrate and not shock, or on the tone without the shock and will hope that works first.
If this is the person I think you are talking about I believe she has talked to the lady she is getting the foster from before deciding on any method of training for him. Also, she has put the prong and shock collar on herself before ever using either one on her dog to make sure it would not hurt her. The shock collar was being used I believe, to fine tune some responses from her dog and help with off leash training. If this is who I am thinking of.

[Taurus and Jada]

Personally, I would use a shock collar as a last resort. I have never used one, mostly because I have not needed to use one... my dogs have always been able to learn without....
I do use a prong collar on one of my dogs. I do not think a prong collar is negative reinforcement. Maybe I do not understand what that means, but how is a prong different from a choke ( except for the fact that a prong can only pinch so far, and the choke doesn't stop and can actually choke a dog...) :-? Many people have choke collars on their dogs and have absolutly no idea how to use them. When used properly, a prong collar is much safer on a dogs neck then a choke collar. It applies pressure evenly instead of on one specific spot which is the case of the choke collar.
I would still use the prong as a last resort also though, and I would never use a choke collar on a dog (atleast not my bull headed dogs...lol) If it wasn't for the fact that my 70 lb dog would drag me the whole walk, I wouldn't use a prong, but a flat collar is just out of the question....
I think alot of people (not all, but alot) look at a prong collar and think they look like a medievil torture device. They look much worse then a choke collar, but they are not.. I will try to find the study about choke vs. prong collars....

[Taurus and Jada]

[quote name='Mei-Mei'][quote]Also, she has put the prong and shock collar on herself before ever using either one on her dog to make sure it would not hurt her[/quote]

I don't know the person you guys are talking about, but she's not telling the truth if she says a shock collar does not hurt. My friend had one for his dog and I tested it on myself on the lowest setting. It hurt like h***! :evil: I can't imagine what it would be like on the highest setting.[/quote]

I have to agree here...I also have a friend that bought one for their dog to teach off leash training. My husband tested on himself and said it hurt quite a bit.... :(

[MajiesMom]

[quote name='Mei-Mei'][quote]Also, she has put the prong and shock collar on herself before ever using either one on her dog to make sure it would not hurt her[/quote]

I don't know the person you guys are talking about, but she's not telling the truth if she says a shock collar does not hurt. My friend had one for his dog and I tested it on myself on the lowest setting. It hurt like h***! :evil: I can't imagine what it would be like on the highest setting.[/quote]

Prongs hurt too (though it's the only way to get Magic to mind when she gets in her point of no return aggressive mode towards another dog) I have to give her a strong pop and she usually yelps. I can't think of anything else that makes her yelp, she is basically pain resistant - so it must really freakin' hurt. No doubt about it that is negative guys!
Technically if you use a prong collar correctly you only have to use it a couple of times... but it is not too positive. IMO

[Taurus and Jada]

I would think if a prong collar is on properly , meaning tight, and not loose around the dogs bottom of the neck, it wouldn't hurt any more then a normal correction... maybe not??

can anyone clarify more please? :D

Taurus has never yelped once wearing a prong collar...??? I do not give him harsh corrections, but I do have to tug on it sometimes, and it does not bother him...?

[Seijun]

[quote name='MajiesMom']Is it the same person that posted on the Leerburg BB yesterday, she's going to foster a hound/Dobie X. She sounds so clueless.[/quote]

Leerburg BB? You mean "Leerburg" as in the guy "Ed Frawley"?? I certainly hope she hasn't gone to [i]him[/i] for help! :o :x

I think shocks and prongs should only be used as a last resort, and only on certain dogs. Some dogs do not respong well at ALL to physical punishment such as with shock collors. On others it does work well, but I say last resort since dogs who have been trained with shock collars tend to disobey commands when they don't have the collar on.

BTW, what is clicker training? I have heard it mentioned a lot, but I don't know what it is :oops:

~Seij

[science_doc]

Not that I know all that much about dog training since I'm currently being trained myself, but I thought that you were not supposed to give corrections on a prong collar, but rather allow the dog to bascially correct themselves only when they pull? I have to say that when I put the prong collar on my own neck and tightened, piching the skin together did hurt. However, I think that's a better option than having the dog basically choke themselves and damage their trachea. I don't think the pinch should be anything but a last resort. I was lucky enough to be able to ween my dog from the pinch collar to a buckle collar after about 6-12 months of tough obdience work, but 2 different trainers I have worked with say some dogs will never ever stop pulling.

As for the shock collar, I know that there are potential problems with using it, but right now if my dog gets free she will run off and someday this might cost her life. I am willing to continue trying to working recall with some of the tips I have gotten from people on this site, but in the end if I have too, I am willing to give the collar a try. However, I will only use the collar with a qualified instructor until I feel confident in the technique. I just think that recall is that important......but then again I'm still learning.....

[MajiesMom]

[quote name='Seijun'][quote name='MajiesMom']Is it the same person that posted on the Leerburg BB yesterday, she's going to foster a hound/Dobie X. She sounds so clueless.[/quote]

Leerburg BB? You mean "Leerburg" as in the guy "Ed Frawley"?? I certainly hope she hasn't gone to [i]him[/i] for help! :o :x

I think shocks and prongs should only be used as a last resort, and only on certain dogs. Some dogs do not respong well at ALL to physical punishment such as with shock collars. On others it does work well, but I say last resort since dogs who have been trained with shock collars tend to disobey commands when they don't have the collar on.

BTW, what is clicker training? I have heard it mentioned a lot, but I don't know what it is :oops:

~Seij[/quote]

Yes the Ed Frawley guy.

I don't like shock collars (not on my dog at least - if you know how to use one and use it on your dog I have no problem with that).
If you use a shock collar properly though the dog doesn't get the correlation between the collar and the shocks. You keep a dummy collar on so the dog doesn't know its the collar that's giving them the shock so no they don't disobey commands when the collar isn't on.

[Lokipups]

Ok, at the risk of being bombed, here's my take on it.

Prong collars and e-collars have their place in dog training, but you must FIRST lay the groundwork by teaching the commands. Too many people take the easy way out by slapping a training collar on a dog and using it to teach commands by the way of avoidance, which is lazy at best, abusive at worst. Training should be done in the proper phases, which is teaching, proofing and correcting. Teaching a command can take months, it's been shown that it can take up to two thousand repetition for a dog to understand a command. Then there's the contextual issue, dogs learn in context. This would be the proofing stage, where you take the dog to different places and essentially teach the command all over again, because after all, just because Fido knows what sit means in the comfort of his own home, doesn't mean he knows it when your standing in line at the local Petco :-? , and people seem not to realize that.
The next stage is correction, and should be implemented ONLY if your sure the dog knows the given command. Not fair to correct a dog for something he doesn't know.
Now with that being said, the biggest problem with people who use compulsion training is that they forget to [b]balance[/b] the correction with praise and treats for a job well done. I think training is all about balance, cause and effect if you will. Positive training is great, but how do you make a dog understand that there is a cause and effect for all actions with a clicker only? You can't, period. I would much rather my dog was corrected by me with a prong collar for stepping out in the street without my permission than having a car bumper do it for me :o .
As for e-collars, I don't know what kind of collar you strapped on to test on yourselves, but I have put my Dogtra 1200 on my own neck and hit the stim, it's nothing more than a buzz at the lowest possible level, and a static electric shock you'd get from walking on the carpet in the winter at a higher frequency. The cheaper collars have a MUCH harsher stimulation to them than the professional models sold today. Only the hardest of hard working line dogs need a higher stim than a 2 (and that's out of 100 settings). My dogs were trained off-leash on a ONE nick stimulation, and are now weaned off the collar, no dummy collar required.
As for the girl on Leerburg who posted the question in the first place, I think she's jumping the gun with her foster dog, she needs to step back and evaluate the dog, work on teaching rather than correcting.

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='MajiesMom']Is it the same person that posted on the Leerburg BB yesterday, she's going to foster a hound/Dobie X. [/quote]
I'm sure it's the same person. I'm not part of Leerburg, but I've seen her mention it on the board I know her from.

I'm really not interested in the whole "prongs/shockers... to use or not to use" stuff. I mean, they aren't methods I've ever needed for any of my dogs ever and I don't intend to start using them any time soon, but I don't want to say NO ONE ever needs them. My whole thing was that it seemed kind of, I dunno, wrong to just jump right into that form of training right from the getgo without first seeing how the dog responds otherwise.

I do believe she is well intentioned and has this dog's best interests at heart (if I do believe she is a bit misguided). I don't have a problem with her as a person. It just seemed to me like she was being a bit impulsive, but since I have no personal experience with these forms of training (other than once when a "trainer" did indeed abuse my Lab with a prong collar), I didn't want to jump full steam into that kind of debate blind. That's why I asked people more knowledgeable (you guys). 8)

[Seijun]

[quote]I'm sure it's the same person. I'm not part of Leerburg, but I've seen her mention it on the board I know her from. [/quote]

Leerburg's crazy. He is a big advocate of a dog training method that involves choking the dog as a means of correction ('choking' as in holding the dog up by its leash until it is ready to pass out). In one part of his website, he mentions training one of his dogs to not be dog/dog aggressive by beating it in the head with a shovel. He also support BSL against wolfdogs and pit bulls.

~Seij

[Cairn6]

I've used an e-collar but I don't advocate anyone just going out and getting one without thoroughly researching the kind of collar you are getting what it feels like and if the behavior your trying to train the dog is severe enough to warrant such a device.

I tried the e-collar after months and months of trying every positive method imaginable but the problem was that I couldn't get his attention when he was aggressive with strange dogs. It got to the point where I couldn't even take him into the vet's office without making a mad dash to the examing room.

The way I used it was I got one that did the correction when he started barking and growling. Then when he stopped barking and growling I praised him and gave him treats like crazy. He learned quickly that with the collar on he would get shocked. So everytime he had it on he wouldn't bark and growl at other dogs and try to attack them. So everytime we went out I would praise him like crazy for being good around the other dogs and give him treats. The whole reason he was doing it was out of fear so when he figured out he didn't have to be afraid the real training began. Pretty soon he didn't need the collar at all. I still praise him whenever we go out amongst other dogs and he is doing wonderfully. Last trip to the vet he met too pit bulls and had a great time visiting with them. He even grabbed one around the neck to play. He barks like crazy around the house but I would never use it for something like that it's not hurting me to have him bark but not being able to take him places and potentially getting hurt by attacking another dog was dangerous. Now I have my happy go lucky pup again who makes friends wherever he goes.

[KP]

[b][size=6]THANK YOU[/size][/b] Loki you pretty much summed up everything.

Because OF it's reason for use and the potential problems it could cause, an e-collar is an investment, not something you should bargain shop for.

It should be a solid name brand. The lowest stim on an e-collar should be no stronger than licking the end of a 9 volt battery or light static electricity and should have at LEAST 7 settings or a dial. Hands down, if the lowest stim is stronger than that it's defective. The lowest setting should NOT be painful. It should be just enough feeling to get the dogs attention. Some dogs need stronger than that which is why it should have many settings. My e-collar doesn't even slightly hurt on the lowest setting. I have tried it on my wrist and even regularly try it on my neck just to make sure it's staying right on. Doesn't hurt.

I also agree that pinch and e-collars not only have their place BUT they should ony be used when all else fails and they should not be the only methods worked with. With motivational training you need to have a positive balance or the dog will get burnt out.

I have one dog who I have never had to use a pinch on but I have limitedly used an e-collar for shaping up an excitingly wonderful recall from a not so great "smell the roses" recall I used to get. Otherwise we train positive with her.

With my current 2nd dog I have tried positive. I have beat it in the head in fact. I invested enormous amounts of time and training into her and it went about as far as you could throw a house with her. She just wasn't getting it. She needed a more k9 correctional type training. It's just more speaking her language to use the pinch.

I've said it so many times, dogs just as humans, require different learning methods. Some people learn better visually, some verbally, some pick things up and some need more help and guidance, some learn better educationally and many experience wise. Dogs are in some ways the same. Sometimes these tools (ONLY when used properly in skilled hands) are necissary to get the dog to understand.

As far as Leerburg goes...

It's not a board for people with companion pets. He is (I believe a retired) K9 police officer. His board is for those who work in schutzhund, [b]working dog[/b], aggression and dogs with drives off the charts. These are dogs willing to fight and willing bite or they trained to bite and protect on command because it's the dogs profession in a working society or managing or finding help or advice from experienced people with common problems that get out of hand...it is not a place to go and ask for potty training advice or chat about your dogs quirks.

Not defending.... just explaining what I have come to understand. I don't agree with everything there but I understand, from my own experience, where a lot of that comes from. The more experience I get around problem dogs, and learning about dog behavior, the more I understand some of it.

Ed is not entirely all, who he comes acrossed through his website. He does [b]not[/b] work with [b]all[/b] dogs that way. In fact he's just started selling clickers...and if I'm not mistaken he's used one in one of his older videos to train puppies.

I also have never seen him say anything negative about pit bulls other than too many people are breeding them for the wrong reasons although I could have missed something I guess. I don't know if he still does but he once had a page about how misunderstood the PB breed is so I don't quite believe that he would be pro-bsl on that one.

I don't visit and read everything everyday but I browse his site often. I know he is however completely against breeding hybrids or [b]pet[/b] wolves. On a personal note, I can't blame him there.

[StarFox]

[quote name='Seijun'][quote]I'm sure it's the same person. I'm not part of Leerburg, but I've seen her mention it on the board I know her from. [/quote]

Leerburg's crazy. He is a big advocate of a dog training method that involves choking the dog as a means of correction ('choking' as in holding the dog up by its leash until it is ready to pass out). In one part of his website, he mentions training one of his dogs to not be dog/dog aggressive by beating it in the head with a shovel. He also support BSL against wolfdogs and pit bulls.

~Seij[/quote]

I agree with you totally about Leerburg. I stumbled across his site by accident while I was looking up GSD agression and nearly had a heartattack while reading his supposed 'training" methods.

KP I have to resectfully disagree with your post. I have a huge problem with his "methods" weather they be for the working dog or not. But the fact is he DOES give advice to the everyday average dog owner, and realy bad advice. Like Seijun I've read his method of choking a dog till it almost passes out or has a look of "fear" in it's eyes. How is that suppose to make your agressive/ alpha dog LESS agressive? To me that is abuse plain and simple.

I'm not stupid I know what it's like to have a Alpha dog. I know what it's like to have an agressive dog. I've worked for two years trying to make my dog less agressive. My dog had HUGE behavor problems from protective bitting to thinking he was top dog all the time. We now have most if not all of his problems under controll with tons of training and understanding of dog behaviour. I also understand that all dogs arn't the same, that each dog needs to have training methods modified to fit there personality and specific needs.

[piperstubbys]

Not sure if I had said it in my earlier post but I do believe the shock collar should be used as a last resort and that is what we plan on using it for and with lots of guidance from our trainer. As far as the pinch collar, I think they are much easier on the dog than a regular choke that can actualy pinch and leave a lark and can actually choke the dog. The pinch should basically just be uncomfortable during a correction if used correctly.
I don't have a problem with this discussion at all, training techniques are great to discuss and get different views from different people and all that but I do find it a bit rude to say enough about a person so that others who are on other boards know who this person is that you are talking about and then debate something they are doing and talk about them when they are not here to defend their own position. I am new to this board and I guess I am just surprised but, does someone want to invite this person in so she can tell her side??

[Seijun]

StarFox, I agree with you. Yes, the dogs he trains are 'hard' dogs, that need a firm trainer to properly train as a fighting dog, but that does not mean you should be able to outright abuse the dog. I don't care what problem the dog has, hitting it with a shovel and choking are NOT proper training methods. In some of his advise collums he advises people to use this choking method-a method that if done by an inexperienced person could kill the dog.
Here are two quotes from his site:

[quote]QUESTION:

I have had German Shepherds all my life. My dogs are my companions and I take them almost everywhere with me. I would like to find a GS that is less likely to show male dominance. I travel the California coast with windsurfing and other dogs are on the beach (mostly labs) and I have to keep my dog away from the other dogs. Is it possible to choose a dog as a pup and it be less likely to show this tendency and yet not be a timid animal?

Thank you,
Gary Fradkin

ANSWER:

It’s not possible to pick a puppy and know that it will not be dog aggressive - no matter what dog therapists say or vets say or dog pchycologists say. It cannot be done. I think that some dogs are genetically predisposed to dog aggression. But for every one of those, I think there are 10 to 15 animals that are dog aggressive because they have had ONE BAD EXPERIENCE. It only takes having the --I have a Potty Mouth-- scared out of a dog one time (by another dog) for it to become dog aggressive. As crummy as this comparison is, it is an accurate one. If a woman is raped she is permanently scarred for life. It is exactly the same with puppies or young adults that are attacked by other dogs. These pups will forever be dog aggressive.

I also think the flip side to this coin is if handlers would put there foot down (FIRMLY) from day one on pups that become aggressive to other dogs, they would be able to eliminate or at least control the problem. The dog must know that if I am aggressive to other dogs my owner is going to get 20 times more aggressive with me because HE DOES NOT LIKE IT. The problem is that most people cannot correct a dog hard enough to make their dog think like this.

So in my opinion dog aggression is 99% a handler problem. This means handlers propagate it by not correcting their dogs firmly enough. The fact is that one good correction is worth 1000 nagging corrections - most owners are naggers.

I have owned some nasty dogs in my life. I own a male right now that is as bad as anything I have ever seen - probably worse than anything most people will ever see in their life (I bought him when he was 5 years old). This dog will viscously try and attack another dog through a fence when I let him out of the kennel. This is going to blow the minds of the Goody-two-shoes and the phooo phooo Halty and Clicker people that read my web site - but I have stopped this dog’s fence fighting. It took three 30 second training sessions. I simply told him “NO” and hit him over the head with a kennel shovel. The reason it took three sessions was because I did not know how thick this dog’s head was - I really had to whack him hard on the third session to get his attention. Now he knows that there are consequences to fence fighting.
I will also say that I took a chance when I hit this dog with a shovel that he would turn that aggression towards me and attack me. I know that no dog is ever going to get me when I have a shovel in my hands - that is probably not the case with most people. But then most people would never own this dog.

The next step on the this dog would be to muzzle him, put him on a leash, get the shovel out so he could see it and let him out with a bitch that is not dog aggressive. This may take a few sessions with different dogs. [/quote]

[quote]QUESTION:

I am writing to you about our 11 yr. old Lhasa Apso, Max. I have had him since he was 8-9wks old. As a puppy, he seemed to be afraid of strangers or anyone who tried to pet or touch him. He would scream and back away. I tried to socialize him, when people would come in that would play with him & he finally started coming out of his shell. However, about a year later he started biting the groomer & they informed me they wouldn't have him back. I had a dog trainer come into our home & work with him after I married. He was even worse w/my husband. The training worked a little, as I was able to at least bathe him, as long as I kept him on a leash. I can't clean his ears or eyes without him snapping. I have never been able to just pick him up and pet him. When we have people over they can't pet him or he will bite - he seems like he will be friendly and then he bites. I cannot take him to the vet anymore for shots or grooming unless they give him a sedative to put him out. My husband usually is the one who walks him, due to our work schedules. However, he has now bitten my husband twice in the past two weeks, the last being a puncture wound. Max didn't growl or snarl either time. My vet has suggested putting him down. Do you have any suggestions that may help?

Thank you for your help.

Teresa Meinert


ANSWER:

Putting him down or not putting him down depends on your willingness to correct this dog. When a dog gets to this stage (11 years of bad training and bad behavior) it's almost too late for most people to deal with.

There is a solution but its not pretty - but it does work. It involves hanging the dog until it almost passes out when he bites. There is no pain - you use the dominant dog collar that I sell - it just takes the dogs air away.

Dogs learn very quickly that being a DINK is unacceptable.

The problem is that people do not have the heart to do this properly. In which case you have to kill the dog. That's the way to look at this - do I kill him or do I hang him until he shits and pisses himself to teach him that he cannot bite. Dogs do learn respect. There is more of a protocol for this but I do not want to go into more detail at this time.

The dog should NEVER be around strangers. It should be in a dog crate when visitors come over.[/quote]

As for the wolf hybrid stuff, I don't really care if you are against breeding them, or if you don't think they should exist or whatever, but this guy insists that they are all viceous kid-killers, and he thinks all existing wolfdogs should be PTS. If you try to give him any POSSITIVE information regarding wolfdogs, he will just cuss you out. He thinks anyone who owns one is an idiot, and anyone who brreds them is a crimminal. :( That is BSL, IMO, and I don't support anyone who support BSL.

Bottom line is, this isn't the sort of guy who should be giving advice to average people. Yes, training attack dogs is hard and difficult work, and can require 'hard' training methods, but people come to him on advice for fear biting, dog/dog aggression, and other types of problems that many average dog owners face. He advises them as if their dog is some big attack dog or something. Geeze, I mean that one person had an 11yr old LHASA APSO! That's hardly the size (or age) of dog that the choking method should be used on, especially if it is an already fearful dog!

I respect his ability as a trainer, but I do not like people who think that "no pain, no gain" also applies to dog training methods.

~Seij

[courtnek]

ok my take. there are SOME dogs who are just simply stubborn. All the treating in the world wont stop them from doing what they want. I took Free to a friends house and put her on their "electric fence" collar. (I have a six foot fence around my yard). I dont know how those collars are shock
wise to an e-collar, but it slowed her down not at all. all she did was grimace and yelp a little as she sailed though the barrier. I had her on a long long leash, she had to come back through the barrier when the leash stopped her. again, just a yelp. but I dont believe these are "first time" solutions. I dont argue with their use, but only when necessary.

[Carolk9s]

I too agree that STRONGER training methods should not be the first resort BUT having said that, I also wish I had gotten a prong collar for Brittany many many years ago. When I first got her, she was very soft and just a voice correction would send her belly down to the ground. As she gained confidence, she got harder and harder to walk on a leash. I was very active in training her, classes and homework. She got two legs on her obedience title in her first two trials. We missed the trial the next year and UKC obedience trials are very difficult to find around here, more so back then. On a flat collar, she would pull until she choked. On a choke chain collar, she would pull until she choked. She would literally hunker down in the front and drag me, and I am NOT a small person.
A PROPERLY used prong collar can be a wonderful thing, it is for her. I DO NOT correct her, she corrects herself. As was mentioned before, the collar MUST be high on the dogs neck and fairly snug to begin with. Not tight, just not enough slack for it to slide down on the dogs neck. It should sit right behind and below the ears.

[DogPaddle]

I tried every method out there before going with the prong and I have to tell you it really does seem more humane than the halti or choke. Zaphod ripped at his face to get the halti off no matter how I adjusted it and he or I just weren't getting the choke and he was in full pull mode the whole time. I tested the prong on me first - it pinches, its uncomfortable but its not too bad and I don't have fur. Zaphod has never yelped on the prong, Kavik did once (he was walking calmly, slowly and accelerated rapidly and nearly dislocated my shoulder, he gave a quick yip and that was it.) If I get the haltis out for a walk Zaphod goes to hide and Kavik won't give me his head, if I get the prongs or their flat buckles - they come running.
As with all methods the goal should be to train, not rely on, where possible. IMO prongs have a bad rap, possibly because they look like a dark ages torture device :(
I know almost nothing about shock collars.

[odnarb]

[quote name='Taurus and Jada']

I have to agree here...I also have a friend that bought one for their dog to teach off leash training. My husband tested on himself and said it hurt quite a bit.... :([/quote]


Maybe I'm just ridiculously stoic, but I nailed myself on the highest setting with the 'continuous' button. This was the top of the line Dogtra model that belongs to a friend. While I wouldn't say it was pleasant, I didn't think the pain was unbearable either.

I see nothing wrong with a remote collar being used correctly.