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Obedience Class


kendalyn

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I think I'm going to take Buck to an obedience class this summer. Not because he needs work on obedience really (although there is always room for improvement), but because within the last 2 weeks he has started getting really aggressive with other dogs on leashes. :(

If I ask Buck to sit while he is starting to freak out when he sees another dog, he will sit and pay attention to me and calm down. But otherwise he is a very unhappy camper. I'm guessing maybe it is because he is just over 2 and he's exiting any kind of puppy teenagery stage? That's the only thing I can think of.

So I called the Kalamazoo Kennel Club and talked to them about what might be a good class for Buck to get into. They suggested the beginner class because even though he does know all the commands they teach, they don't do any work on socialization in the more advanced classes. Sounds good to me. :-) but it started last week and it was full. The guy said to come to the class on Monday though and maybe they would let me in since they are thinking about splitting the class into 2 classes anyway. He said all I missed was orientation so I wouldn't really be behind if they do let me in.

So tomorrow we'll head over and see what happens. I really hope we can get in because the next class isn't until August. If we can't, I think a few of the local pet stores offer classes but I don't trust those as much as the Kalamazoo Kennel Club.

Does anyone have any other ideas about what I can do? When he starts to freak out, I stand between him and the other dog, make him sit and praise him when he calms down. That's the only thing I can really think to do. But of course that only works if the other dog walks past and out of our area.

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Chaos is going through the exact same thing at the moment. The sit thing seems to work pretty well and I also got a halti to stop the lunging and growling which has really worked wonders in only 3 days.

DL sent me an article on leash aggression if you want to take a look.
[url]http://www.allearsdogs.com/leash_aggression.htm[/url]

Sorry I couldn't be more help im kinda in the same position your are at the moment.

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I love going to obedience classes in the summer, we always had picnics and BBQ's for every one in class. I hope you enjoy your self.

What I did with my dog aggressive Rottie, I desensitized her to other dogs, bike riders, etc. any thing that made her offensive or put her into predatory drift.
When I saw a potential "problem" coming along be is dog etc. I would start talking in an uppity happy voice. Then I would start giving Athena treats and reward her for looking at me...I taught her the look at me command ASAP :lol: I would continue rewarding her until we had passed by the dog or other "problem objects". It takes awhile and it was easier to get her to obey the look at me command when passing by other dogs her size (small prey object dogs were a little harder). I never made her sit when we were passing the other dog. I just kept walking, talking, treating etc.

She started to realize that the pleasure of rewards out weighed the pleasure of lunging at other dogs. I found this method worked also when bike riders would pass us along the trails, ATV's, etc.
The trick was, I always caught her attention before she became "focused" on the other dog. Once they go into that focus stage its hard to get them to pay attention to you...and I learned to never ever get mad at her, or even to try and tell her "no" etc. that can make the situation much much worse. Just think if you spotted your favorite movie star that you have been in lust with for years and one of your friends is pulling on your top saying "kendalyn...NO...don't look at him!!!! look at me!!!!" but if your friend were to come up with an even sexier super star, this would take your focus off the other one as the reward is of equal or greater value :wink:
So, always carry fantasik treats which are of great value to Buck...the rewards he receives for not freaking out and instead behaving will make him repeat the good behavior. My favorite saying is success builds confidence, removes confusion...by rewarding Buck you are showing him the proper behavior in a stressful situation.
Don't expect any sudden changes over night, it took me a year to build my Rottie into the wonderful canine citizen she is today. You may also want to purchase a couple of Newfoundland dogs for your training sessions with Buck...Newf's are great dogs for calming other dog aggressive dogs :wink: :lol:
Just one last thing, please do not resort to an electric shock collar. Some people may have had success with one of these collars...but, for every one I know who has tried them they have seen immediate results...and then the dog goes back to square one and is worse. I am helping a friend of mine who was using an e-collar on his Bull Mastiff for dog aggression...the dog is now associating the other dogs with pain and it has esculated his aggression. Some may say he was using the collar wrong...but, he had training with a friend of his who is on the Canine unit with the police dept who has many years of experience training with these collars.
I know it was probably unnecessary to add the part about the e-collars...but, I just thought I'd mention it. Use positive training, not negetive training. It may take awhile longer training with positive only training...but, the end result is you have a dog which "wants" to do things for you and is not afraid of trying new things. :wink:

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Don't worry about the e-collar. I hate those things most of the time. And Buck is way to sensitive for one anyway. He would totally shut down.

Thanks for the advice Cassie. I will start trying it. I have to admit that I did yell at him yesterday, but that was mostly because I was scared and surprised. Buck and I were facing away from a Husky who walked up behind us and must have sniffed Buck's butt or something because he didn't see the dog until it was right on him. He lunged around with a really loud growl/bark combination that scared the heck out of me and basically made me realize that something needed to be done for sure. I didn't even see it coming since the dog came up from behind us. I grabbed Buck and said "STOP IT!" at him. I probably shouldn't have but it did calm him down.

I'm nervous about the class tomorrow though! Mostly because there will obviously be a lot of other dogs there and I'm afraid that if the class isn't controlled properly than it'll be a disaster. Plus I need to calm myself down about it because I don't want Buck to know that I'm nervous. :oops:

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Good luck with the classes. Sometimes by getting the dog to wait for the other dog to pass can ignite the problem of aggression. Some dogs that I have worked with on a one to one basis have actually been more confident when they have been moving past the other dog. These dogs upon told to sit showed accelerated nervous behaviour typified by excess salivation and respiration along with growling or lip curling. When the dog was treated for walking calmly past another dog, the previous symptoms were greatly dampened. A dog that is stationary in one spot is a dog that will feel extremely vulnerable to events going on around him and that nervous vulnerability in a known aggressive dog will be manifested by a display of aggression towards the threat, which in most cases is a passing dog or person.

The sit and treat on the spot works for some dogs but not for others and it is sometimes a matter of trial and error to find out what works best with an individual dog. Incidentally one particular dog i worked with that had a dog aggression problem was a Rhodesian ridgeback called Nelson who had previously killed a Yorkie at the local park. Nelson would get extraordinarily agitated when asked to sit and so I tried the relaxed walk-by and treat approach. after several sessions of desensitisation, the passing dog would become a part of the background park scenery and Nelson learned to ignore the passing dog, which all round was a positive result that saved his life from destruction by euthanasia.

Its just a thought but try to be as relaxed as possible when you use this approach and no cajoling him as he passes. Just use a very firm brisk walk and show him the treat, so that he is distracted as he walks past with his eyes eagerly on you, and before he and you will have known it, the other dog will have passed by. he then gets the treat when he is past the other dog. Good luck :wink:

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[quote]The sit and treat on the spot works for some dogs but not for others and it is sometimes a matter of trial and error to find out what works best with an individual dog.[/quote]

It does seem to work for Buck, but it is not my end goal. I need for him to be able to walk past another dog be it coming head on, passing us from behind or crossing our path without him acting like a jerk.

I will try the treat thing. He really doesn't get excited about treats when we are on a walk though. He responds better to praise for some reason. But the treat may help to get his attention. I'll do both :-)

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Guest Anonymous

ob class sounds like a good idea! it did wonders for cody. althogh his dog aggression got worse in ob class.. he does fine when they are not on lead, but when on lead he got very aggressive ;(

good luck

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[quote]Just one last thing, please do not resort to an electric shock collar. Some people may have had success with one of these collars...but, for every one I know who has tried them they have seen immediate results...and then the dog goes back to square one and is worse. I am helping a friend of mine who was using an e-collar on his Bull Mastiff for dog aggression...the dog is now associating the other dogs with pain and it has esculated his aggression. Some may say he was using the collar wrong...but, he had training with a friend of his who is on the Canine unit with the police dept who has many years of experience training with these collars. [/quote]
I am one of those that resorted to an electronic collar. It did work for me and Toto but I didn't realize that it could have backfired terribly for me and him. There was someone on another board who posted what can happen to a dog whose owner kept the collar on non-stop when your only supposed to leave it on a short time and never unsupervised. It was the most horrible sight. I put it on me before I gave it to him so I could see what it felt like and this one felt like a static shock. But there are others that are much worse.

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Well, that particular obedience class is a no go. It didn't go very well.

I got there early and asked the registration people about getting admitted into the class even though it was full because one of the other people had already thought it would be possible. They really weren't very nice.

First this guy got really houghy and suggested I not do things at the last minute. I explained that I hadn't needed an obedience class until about 2 weeks ago when these problems started cropping up. Then another lady asked if I had just gotten the dog or something. So I made the mistake of telling them that I had trained him on my own. The conversation went downhill from there. Apparently they don't think it's possible to train a dog without an obedience class. :roll: I even admitted that I should have taken him earlier purely for the socialization aspect but he hasn't had problems with other dogs until now so I didn't see the need. They still were hell bent on telling me just how stupid it was to try and do it on my own. That really pissed me off so I made a point of telling Buck to sit and lie down while I was talking to them (which he did just fine)

Anyway, that's actually not the main reason Buck won't be taking that class. It's because I found out there are 47 dogs in the class with 1 instructor and 2 assistants. Is that a normal ratio? 3:47? Plus they run a puppy class right next to the beginner class in the same room. :-? Is that normal? I decided I would look around at different classes at that point.

I did take Buck to the park afterwards to see if maybe we could find some other people with their dogs that Buck could see from a distance. The only problem is that Buck didn't care about the other dogs in that particular setting. Two large dogs were barking their heads off at him and he didn't even look up. :roll: I mean, it's a good thing I guess, but I know his aggression isn't gone or anything. He was just having more fun sniffing the bushes than paying attention to the other dogs. I did praise him though. I don't think he knew why he was being praised but I figured it couldn't hurt. :lol:

I'll keep looking for a class though.

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Guest Anonymous

here is a good article for you on calming signals (dog body language & what to watch for.....and how to calm your dog in times of stress)

[url]http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1553&articleid=1135[/url]

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[quote]It's because I found out there are 47 dogs in the class with 1 instructor and 2 assistants. Is that a normal ratio? 3:47? Plus they run a puppy class right next to the beginner class in the same room. Is that normal? I decided I would look around at different classes at that point. [/quote]

:o Run, run far away :o !
:lol: Seriously tho, that is a obed class that I guarantee will have it's share of problems, dogfights being the worst, distracting atmosphere at best. You absolutely can train Buck yourself, no reason why you can't.
Just remember to proof the commands, something that a lot of people forget to do. If you want to get him into a class, look for one that has no more than 8 - 10 dogs in one class. Better yet, see how much that class you looked at would've cost you compared to a private trainer, many private trainers are a lot more reasonable than you think, and you get a lot more acomplished because it's one on one.

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Gee whizz Kendalyn that is bloody ridiculous. Well let me tell you that by them treating you like a sub-standard human they have done you a favour as with that huge number of dogs in a class, Buck would have learnt nothing and he would likely have just got more anxious around other dogs. The ratio of dogs and trainers is certainly not normal, and certainly not safe either as it is impossible for a trainer to keep an eye on that volume of dogs constantly.

Work with him at the park in the meantime and have a look about for obedience classes that are more amicable and know how to train. :evil:

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Oh but this is a timely topic! I have concerns with Candy reacting to other dogs, glad to read about encouraging her to walk on by other dogs, not sit in place. That is probably what I would have asked for, walking on by does make better sense.
Kendalyn,
47 dog/handler teams in one class? That is lunacy! Shame on those people for sneering at you instead of taking the opportunity to welcome you. You are better off without them!

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[quote]he does fine when they are not on lead, but when on lead he got very aggressive ;(

[/quote]




THIS shouted for my attention. Free does the same thing, on lead. Although she doesnt confront, she will NOT back down if confronted.

However, when I let her off (once) at the dog park, since Laurel came, she was all "Cheerio! Good day to all!" and behaved very nicely....could it be the confinement that makes them nastier? the lead?

in a pack setting, the dogs are never confined. They can choose to back down to an aggressor, or run. This made me think "could this be "flight or fight" syndrome"? they cant fly, they cant get away....

any thoughts? or am I just rambling?

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[quote]....could it be the confinement that makes them nastier? the lead?

in a pack setting, the dogs are never confined. They can choose to back down to an aggressor, or run. This made me think "could this be "flight or fight" syndrome"? they cant fly, they cant get away.... [/quote]

Nope, right on target, Court 8) . 90% of on-lead aggression I see is actually owner induced, and most handlers don't even realize it. Handlers give cues that signals "Be Aware!" to their dog, tightning of the leash being the number one signal, your body tension being the next. Dogs are amazingly good at picking up cues from you, whether it be happiness, tension, anger, etc.
Next time you see another dog when you are out with yours on-lead, take the end of the leash and tie it to a belt loop tightly, take your hands out of the equation altogether. When you see another dog at a distance, get the dog to focus on you (food treat of the most fabulous value works well). Repeat the "focus" every few feet or so. When and if your dog starts to tense up, step in front of him, literally telling him "It's my job to protect you, not yours". Alpha takes care of their own, and this manuever will effectively tell your dog that :) .

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I'm glad I wasn't crazy about the class size. As soon as I heard how large it was I just couldn't see myself really getting to work with Buck in such a crazy environment. There would be dogs coming from all sides and it would be very hard to get and keep his attention. Especially with a puppy class 20 feet away!

The park seems to be a good place to work with Buck because the dogs can be varying distances away instead of on the usual walking trail we visit where they are all coming directly towards him. I will use Cassie's and Lokipup's advice and see if that helps.

I'll continue to look for another class but now I know to ask lots of questions before wasting my time going to it. :-)

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[quote]Another good spot for training is the vets office........Its always full of dogs and ppl....and evry1 has to be on a leash....[/quote]

I probably won't take Buck to the vet for training reasons. Sick dogs are usually more apt to not want to be friendly and I wouldn't want Buck to stress a sick dog out anymore than he/she already is. I always got really annoyed with people who thought going to the Vet was playtime when I was there with my dying Standard Poodle. He just wanted to rest and I got sick of telling people to have their dogs leave him alone. Plus, I'd be afraid that Buck could get sick also if one of the dogs has something communicable.

[quote]In our ob/agility class there are 10 dogs/handlers with one instructor and 1 or 2 assistants.[/quote]

This is what I'm looking for! I found a few places to call and I'll do that on Thursday. I'll be sure to ask about class sizes!

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