eric Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 I dunno, when I see breeder ads saying "Winner of XXXXX dog show" it seems to me that while breeders are doing the deed, judges are providing the direction, rewarding breeders for going extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyHoffman Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 That's absolutely right Eric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shenanigans Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 I'm just curious as to how many people would buy from a breeder who refuses to show their dog in the AKC/CKC if the breeder seemed to know their stuff? Would they buy the dog as "working" quality, or pet quality or even breeding quality? Personally it's 60/40 as to breeders vs judges in the blame. It's not easy to be unpopular if you have a functioning breed specimin despite what the type du jour is, but ultimate you have to sleep at night and if one can sleep while their pups are walking on their pasterns, I wouldn't likely be buying a pup from them anytime too soon. I know my Newfoundland's breeder braves the show ring fairly often even though her dogs are definitely not the type that is winning. She will eventually place and win with her dogs but it takes some work, and you through a popular line or handler in there and she'll probably go home empty handed. That said, when I saw her dogs, I knew that they were sound, strong and her health record speaks far louder than most records in our area. She's a stubborn woman, but I'd take a breeding dog from her in an instant, even though it's not the type that's doing all the winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajiesMom Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 I don't care too much about the standards, I just love my dog. Look at the German Shepherd Dog Illustrated Standard: [url]http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/standard/IllStan1.htm[/url] It doesn't look like such a bad back - it's pretty straight if you ask me. Is that the real standard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarahstaff Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 Yes, as far as I know, that is the real standard. There is nothing wrong with the GSD standard as it is written. It's the interpretation of it that has gone wrong. Suzanne Clothier, as well as being a noted dog trainer and author, breeds GSDs. Look at her dogs: [url=http://www.flyingdogpress.com/gsds.html]Hawks Hunt GSDs[/url] They are nothing like the exaggerated type typically seen in the show ring, but some of them [i]have[/i] earned show points, because they are correct to the standard, and you will some judges will judge to the standard rather than to fashion. None of them are finished champions, as that isn't where S. Clothier's interests lay. My own breed is another example of a breed going wrong, and not because of the standard. The "show type" Staffybull these days is a very squat, heavy dog. The standard calls for a dog which is 14-16 inches, weighing 28-38 pounds for males, 24-34 pounds for bitches- [i]weight in proportion to height[/i]. You will rarely see a show Staffy who fits this. If you see a 38 pound show Staffy, he will be about 15" tall... or it will be a bitch. A typical 16" male will weigh at least 45 pounds. These dogs are [i]incorrect[/i]. But, they win. It isn't the judges fault, though, or the standard. It is the breeders who get so impressed with "bone" and "substance", and huge impressive heads, and present those as the ideal for the breed. They have seminars for judges, where they [i]show[/i] them these heavy dogs, and tell them that is what is correct. This trend can be halted, but only if breeders try. The judges just know what we tell them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarahstaff Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 But that is still the breeder's choice. They choose to breed incorrect dogs in order to win. The judges don't force them to do so. And where do the judges learn what to put up? In most cases, as in my breed, they learn that from breeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarahstaff Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 But the judges couldn't [i]choose[/i] them if the breeders didn't [i]breed[/i] them. And, as I said, most education of judges is done by the breeders. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree, because what I was wondering is what are [i]you[/i] not understanding. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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