anne3149 Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Indeed, thank you K for being honest. We do appreciate what you do. This is probably a good lesson for all of us not to take people at 'face' value just because they have made a large number of posts. This is a nice friendly forum and it would be a shame to see it made to look less than what it is just because of someone trying to put one over us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 [quote name='anne3149']I think a few of the more outspoken here who rushed to his defense could apologise to the people who spoke their minds about a very suspicious situation. Threads were locked, members were castigated for their doubts and guests were made unwelcome on the forum and why??? Because the regular members leapt to the defence of RNP without knowing or being certain of the facts. All the guests were wrong...just because they were not members????????[/quote] This is exactly what I said before... and Kiwi also said... just because someone is a member doesn't give them more authority, or accords them more respect, than someone who isn't. It would do all of us good to remember that. (don't count trolls though LOL.) It is hard trying to be impartial as a moderator, and I hate to say this, but I vote also for a ban. I do not like being taken for a ride. Sell dogs, fine. Be a BYB, do whatever. Don't friggin lie about it and screw over everyone who previously thought well of you. The silence of RNP is deafening!! Please count my vote, K. :) And let me know what else I can do to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anne3149 Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Courtnek....newfiemum..... I would be interested in your stance on this matter now. You have been pretty outspoken in defence of RNP and said the guests were here to cause trouble when it now seems most of them were here to inform us of what was going on. Some were even called trolls. We have had a mod saying they got to the bottom of it and investigations were taking place. This also seem to be a furphy at this stage and/or the mod was conned. No one has come up with an explanation, least of all RNP. I know this seems to be all about RnP but it is about his dogs. We are concerned about them and I am sure we do not respect byb's on this forum and that seems to be exactly what is going on. A desexed dog turns out to be entire or is he?? Is a neutered dog being advertised for stud? How so? Dogs who are not of the standard to be bred are now being advertised for breeding. I guess we won't get the answers from RnP but I trust at least this thread will not be locked because a person or persons who are fans of RnP request the thread be locked. That a couple of people do not want discussion on what RnP may be doing that we consider unethical is not a valid reason to lock a thread IMO. I repeat Courtnek and Newfiemum...where do you stand on the issue now? BK: Thanks for that. It has been difficult for you as mod I am sure. But I agree with you...it's the lies we are so put out about. I doubt we will see RnP here now, but just in case. My beef is personal to an extent for the condition of that poor chained up obese Rottweiler. That is very bad treatment of a lovely dog. Count My Vote in for a ban as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abker17 Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Well looks like I'm left with the 5th ban vote.... I really hope you don't leave Mei Mei. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 [quote name='Mei-Mei']I am [b]not[/b] apologizing; and I am [b]not[/b] voting for a ban. (1) When this whole business came up I contacted the site owner to ask about the information on his auction site and he indicated that a mistake had been made. I came back to a board of people ripping RnP a new one and stated that I didn't think that was fair. I still don't think it's fair. Why should I apologize for wanting to be just? (2) Though RnP is obviously going to be banned anyway, I still would like to hear an explanation as to why he misled everybody. So he wants to breed his dogs. I don't agree with it, but he wouldn't have been castigated. Or maybe he would have been castigated, who knows? But he did not need to lie. (3) Right is not the same thing as fair. Just because the suspicions about RnP turned out to be accurate doesn't mean that a whole board full of people can just yell and scream at him without evidence. (4) It does make a difference whether Guests post the information versus regular members. I know regular members, and I know if I can trust their information. It's cruel to go to another board just to post negative damaging information about someone without enough proof as to its veracity. I wouldn't do it. (5) Since this whole thing started I have been emailing auction sites and bybs in hopes to find the truth of this situation. This has been very frustrating, and I'm still angry about it. As I stated before this is the one situation I have encountered on this board that has made me consider resigning my position as moderator and moving on. [color=darkblue][i][b]And not because I believe RnP, because I don't for one minute now. [/b][/i][/color] Only because the board seems caught in this unpleasant Orwellian cycle of all right and all wrong that I don't like one bit. Not one bit. :x :x :x :x :x[/quote] ********************** I'm just a guest here, but if I had a vote, I would vote NOT to ban RnP, even though even the stuff he flat out admits to doing (owning the obese, chained rottie, buying a puppy from an irresponsible breeder just because he wanted to) is enough to make me certain he is an irresponsible dog owner and a threat to pit bulls. Frankly, his silence on the other issues (selling his supposedly beloved dogs on the internet, offering dogs at stud who are supposedly neutered, and which have no reason to be bred in any case) is much more convincing because he has been invited to explain. If he were banned, the few people who have previously believed his rather incredible explanations would probably just think it was the victim of a silencing. He can claim that he would have explained, only he wasn't allowed to. Plus, just because you don't hear from people who do bad things to animals doesn't mean that they don't exist or stop doing bad things to animals. Free speech works a whole lot better than trying to silence the voice of people with whom you disagree. Really, it does. Let it work here. primrose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendalyn Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 I vote [i]not[/i] to ban Rott 'n' Pit. Why would we be banning him? To look good to other forums? To send him a message that he is not believed and not liked? I think he can figure that out by reading the threads. I guess I don't want to close the door to seeing him offer an explanation. I doubt I would believe it but I guess morbid curiosity has me interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Maybe a ban is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. I am just very mad at the moment and perhaps I should think before I type. Maybe we can all think it over for a few hours... because at the moment I am seething... and it is highly unlikely that RNP will come back to offer an explanation even if he does not get banned. I would be interested though in what he has to say (morbid curiosity too kendalyn :)) I still stand by what I said, guest and members should be treated alike. It is usually obvious to see who is here to start trouble and who is here to give genuine advice and/or information. Just because someone becomes a member doesn't exclude them from becoming trouble later on (Mary? Pouty Pitbull? Reedpuppy for the old-timers here? :lol: :lol: ). K though is a safe bet; she is forum Queen and nobody would dare cross her :D :D Primrose- it's not so much that I disagree with RNP, but more that he blatantly lied to us that I am angry about. As I said, he can do whatever he likes with his dogs, however unethical they may be (the poor things). It is just morally wrong to lie about it, that's all. (discovered that i actually do have morals! woo!) I don't think Mei-Mei should have to apologise to anyone for her opinion, like courtnek and newfiemom shouldn't have to apologise for theirs. She is a fine moderator and has been most helpful in uncovering some of the first rnp scandal and is helping even now... i think we are all still digesting this information... let's give it some time to cool down and then make a decision...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjeffrock Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 I vote to ban him too. It is pretty obvious that RNP has no intentions of explaining what's going on (not that he is obligated to.) What angers most of us here is that he has been full of isht. He has talked, and talked and talked about bettering the APBT breed and this and that and this and that. I personally cannot stand liars. If you wanna be a BYB and stud your dog, thats your choice. There is no law here saying that you cant do so. I love the broad spectrum of people that post on here. Lots of great info, and lots of cool people from all over the world. If someone had a personal vendetta against me, and all this was going down, you guys would be the first to hear my story. I would do ANYTHING I had to do to show you guys that it was simply not true. Sorry to any mods who feel burned about this whole situation. Please dont leave over something as silly as his lies. You guys do a great job of running the board. So, I vote to ban him. I dont care, and dont want to hear any more explanations of what happened. What he is doing goes on all throughout the world, however to deceive people about it and flat out lie to them is a just as big an offense in my opinion. [img]http://www.ihateaol.co.uk/misc/galleries/show.php/640x640//funnypics/Ban.him.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpeigirl Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 No Ban, I hate the idea of not letting someone deffend themselves. And I was another one who stood up for RNP, and I'm still going to let him have his say. I don't jump to conculisons, and I hate the "off with his head" Mentaity we've sudenly gotten. every thread turns into a :agrue: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 [quote]Absolutley Anne....I will put up my hands and apologise to all...I was wrong to defend him just beacuse he was a long term member here... but was I was wrong to try to wait it out for proof?...I am sorry if anyone thinks that locking the previous threads on this was a violation of thier rights to free speach...but I am only one human and only trying to run a nice place to be here...I was duped by R'n'P ..probably more than you know...but I will do my best to see that it does not happen again... [/quote] I agree. I will not vote to ban him. but I did truly try to get him to explain what was going on. And I will still stand by his chance to explain himself, but he does not appear to be wanting to do so. and yes, I stood by him more because he is or was a valued member here, then I did by the guests who I know nothing at all about. Was that wrong? I'm still not sure. I will post the email he sent me when I begged him to come forward. That's the last I've heard from him. "I cant. not until i have the person who did it, or a name or something. It does no good for me to profess my innocence, without a guilty party to correctly place the blame on. I know that its still going on, as I am a good target. I dont know why anyone thinks i want to sell Drey.... it really boggles my mind. He is canine perfection, i couldn't ask for a better dog... there is only one way that i would ever let him go, and god willing that wont be for quite a while. Just know that I am innocent, and am working with the FBI on the auction case, they are taking this very seriously too. Internet fraud is something they are really cracking down on. I will be back to the board, hopefully soon, but not until i cant prove to everyone that i did not do this. side note: that hoobly.com ad has been around since February... I contacted them and unfortunately that ad was placed before they started all of their security precautions, all they could tell me was that it was posted in February and the person who posted it hasn't logged in to check on it in over a month. I will not go down without a fight, truth always wins out over drama and lies. thanks for writing, it means a lot to know not everyone thinks i am a low-life" so now, in light of K's evidence, I dont know what to think. I want to believe him, but his silence is making it very difficult. I apologize if I upset or offended anyone trying to get at the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydogroxy Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 i vote for a ban. i don't think anyone here WANTS to believe rott is doing any of this, if only for the sake of the dogs. but how feasible is it that someone (or multiple people) dislike rott enough to steal his dogs pictures and pictures of his friends dogs, one three seperate occassions and use them to try and sell/breed the dogs? especially from a mere internet relationship? it just isn't believable. looking back at rott's posts, he has always made contradictory, suspicious statements (anti-byb/goes and buys diallo...altered dogs/wait, no theyre not...etc.). there is ways too much circumstantial evidence here to look the other way. and as for other boards...yes, we look terrible in the handling of this whole situation. while they're are some people who refuse to believe he's innocent, there are also people (here) who seem to refuse to believe he's guilty. dogo is a good place and this whole mess has given it a very bad name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 First off... I wont apologize at all for the way these "guest" posters have been "treated". If someone I dont know aproaches me and tells me a friend of mine did something terrible, Im going to stick by my friend, until i feel I need to step away. I will not apologize for standing by a long time member. I do have to say I think RnP and his buddies decided to start a kennel with these dogs that should never be bred. This upsets me more than him selling his dogs over an internet auction. I took RnP to be a responsible pit owner who wouldnt ever do something that could hurt the breed so drastically. I really hope he and his friend think hard about what they are doing.... In the meantime I am going to put in a call to some friends of mine at the ADBA and let them know about these people. I will also be posting on my private, password protected message boards, which are all dogmen/women who wouldnt even think about purchasing one of their currs, but they can spread the word in the dog world. AND, RnP if you are reading this thread.... Think about what breeding these dogs is going to do. It will do nothing but add to the problem already exsiting for pit bulls... Not only pit bulls but those currs are all advertised as APBTs. I am extremely disappointed you would hurt a breed you claim to love. I hope you think about things and come to your senses. Not one of those dogs should be bred. You should know this by know.... I will inform people about this kennel. From the breeding of those currs to the way the owner treated a person who was simply emailing with a question. If you want to be respected in the pit dog world, you have started out the wrong way. Now on to the informing.... :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Whoops...That was me.. forgot to log in... :oops: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Hello, I hope that everything that you all may need to come to an appropriate decision, whatever that may be, is available. I Mod over on [url]www.pitbullforum.com[/url]. Admins, I would like to invite you to come over and dig around through his archives if it may help or you haven't already. The most damning eveidence was removed in the form of older pictures. Same outfits in new pics that are now on his breeding site, same locations from different angles, etc. There was alot. I happen to remember clearly because I always watched him closely and never ever trusted him. Anything that may help, come over. I would like to say that I am sorry for the situation you must be in K, you had your trust and love of animals violated to perpetuate what I believe to be a sick ploy. I hope you figure out what is best for you and your members, I know that this must be harder for personal involvement. Good luck and feel free to contact me if there is any way I may be of assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pLaurent Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 I started this thread, and apologize for not using my name, but didn't feel like being called a "troll" again, the way I was when I tried to warn you about "The PoutyPitbull". RnP has lied to you about virtually everthing, right down to his saying his dogs' ears were cropped by a vet, when in fact the backyards breeders themselves hacked those poor dogs' ears off and he finally admitted it. He is an immoral person, lacking in any kindness or decency. He cares nothing for this breed and our outrage is on behalf of all the poor dogs he has used and abused then discarded like garbage when the next one comes along. He has not been banned on the board I mod, but he certainly hasn't come back to explain why his dogs (and his "friends" dogs) are appearing again and again on auction and stud sites, even that pitiful puppy with his hacked ears and spiked collar.:( Wonder why he's so silent now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydogroxy Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 divine...he didn't say he cut them off himself. initially he was saying the breeder had a vet do it, but eventually he just started coming right out and saying the breeder did the crop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mutts4Me Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 [quote name='DivineOblivion19'][b][color=indigo]to primrose:[/color][/b] [url]http://pkcpetfood.dnsalias.org/coondogs/site/breeds/cur.htm[/url][/quote] Well, Primrose's post has been deleted - I just tried to respond to it. I guess we may as well not turn this thread into another fight about the fact that Hmmm fights pits... But "curr" isn't referring to that kind of cur. Hmmm was meaning they weren't "game." I haven't posted anything about this whole thing, I don't think... I've had issues with RnP since I came here, so I'm actually not too terribly surprised by this whole thing. Sad, though. Poor pups :( Oh... I thought the same thing about "Snow," but I believe Snow White had a black ear, which that dog does not. So hopefully, that's just a case of "Snow" being a common name for white dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 I missed the post... oh well.. Actually I wasnt even speaking of "game" dogs. I was speaking of these 80lb so-called APBTs. Currs IMO, even if they were "gamebred" (which is impossible). These are pit bulls that give APBTs a bad name and they should not be bred. They arent worth breeding in any way, which makes them currs. They are mixed breeds, which makes them currs (no offense to mutt owners, I actually love mutts!) I dont even think blue pits should be called APBTs. Just another "fad" color... If you take a look at the old dogs you wont see blues. Primrose, are you not finding satisfaction on the board you are a member of? You really seem to like to start crap on other boards?? :roll: My situation has been discussed, and pretty deeply... I happen to respect everyones opinions on this matter... If you have a problem, pm me, cause like I said, most everyone here has already given their opinion on this matter. Why start it all over again?? One word... INSTIGATER! (sp??) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 One more thing... If the members of the board would like me to stop posting here I will completely respect your requests. Although I hope that is not the case! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Kat Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Well I have to say I have read the posts that have developed over the past few weeks in regards to the incidents and as I usually am extremely judgemental and forward I kept my mouth shut, so that I didn't jeopardise my existence being on what I have found to be a good dog discussion board. When I read the preliminary posts I thought it was dodgy to say the least and I didn't buy the story of the photos being stolen. I may be judgemental but I have a speciality 6th sense that zones straight in to spot someone untrue. Now that I have seen this post, my first words were "I knew it". I truly believe that we have been lied to and crossed. The only person however who has ended up looking like a proverbial fool is him himself. If it was a situation of him breeding his dogs then fair enough, we can't dictate to people. We can try to educate about smart breeding but we have no control realistically. The fact of the matter is that it was taken further and one lie has spiralled into another and come up with a huge cumulative effect. My outright view is to ban. Too many coincidences? Murphys law isn't different for one person than another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aonir Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 At least Hmmmm is honest. I just want to know the truth, you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 [quote]The only person however who has ended up looking like a proverbial fool is him himself. [/quote] not exactly true. I, too, look like a fool, because I believed him (and still hope he comes forward to explain himself) and allowed myself to be drawn in by his pleas of innocence. I still hope he is, but I wont argue his case any longer. I gave him the chance to come clean. He didnt. From now on, as I told K, I will stay out of these things entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 [quote name='Hmmmm']One more thing... If the members of the board would like me to stop posting here I will completely respect your requests. Although I hope that is not the case![/quote] Hmmm...in my opinion, dont leave. While I disagree with some of your tenets, and we have gone around about them, I respect a lot of the advice and tips you have given. We are not all the same people, we dont always share the same views....but any information shared is good for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss J Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 woa...what a thread! [quote name='Hmmmm']One more thing... If the members of the board would like me to stop posting here I will completely respect your requests. Although I hope that is not the case![/quote] I don't know what brought this on. But you have taught me so much and I will always appreciate it. I understand and respect (yes respect) why you do what you do. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odnarb Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 [quote name='Hmmmm']I dont even think blue pits should be called APBTs. Just another "fad" color... If you take a look at the old dogs you wont see blues. [/quote] Sure ya will. It's well known that the Blue Paul was tossed into the smelting pot that became the APBT. Some interesting info for ya... From the book [u]Canine Lexicon[/u]... "BLUE PAUL These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshires of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch. The dogs were popular with he gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull-and-terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan. In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England, reports that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s." From Wayne Brown's book, [u]The History of the American Pit Bull Terrier[/u]... "Many people claim that the Blue Paul is extinct. He may be extinct in his pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity, as we have seen. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachussets. They fought at Catch weight which usually indicates large dogs. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a blue paul. If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From another part of the book: W.C.Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's)Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds. And another: Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. (several pages later): As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line." FYI......The Ruffian line of AmStaffs is where most of the blue ASTs are found. So I guess it did come from gamebred APBTs after all....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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