Guest Anonymous Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 *Deleted* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Bitch Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 You do realize that dogs gain weight after altering due to a change in their metabolism? A simple adjustment in diet and execercise usually corrects that problem. But yes, thanks for answering my questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 *Deleted* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 SRC, can I ask WHY your breeding these dogs? To me you don't sound like really a BYB, but the only breeders I really condone are those who are running kennels and completely 100% into the breed you know what I mean? I'm not giving you greif just because you don't have a kennel, but when I was in the hospital in the summer my eyes were opened more because my mom would frequently bring me to pet shops and the SPCA to see the dogs (I was suverly dog deprived you see :wink: ) and seeing all those sad faces behind bars I can't believe anyone would want to breed a dog because they like the breed. To me they have to truly REALLY LOVE the breed and do it ONLY for the better, not just to breed pet quality dogs without spay/neauter contracts, and because where you live it costs a lot to buy one... to me that's a GOOD thing the price is so high, that way people just looking for a pet can go to the local shelter and save a life instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crested Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 It's taken me... umm... 3 hours to read this thread and I'm sure I've missed things... :oops: This is a very, very interesting thread to me as I've wonderd long what is the critical thing that shows who is a BYB and who's not. Therefore, can I ask you... do you think I will be a BYB in the future? Let me explain my "dreams" so to speak. :-) First of all, as many of you know I have two dogs - Ben and Bella. Next year I will be moving and I'm not sure if I'll be able to take Ben with me. He's completely 100% my mom's dog. So I'm afraid there will be separation anxiety and if it doesn't work out, then I think it's best for Ben to stay here. I am going to try and take him with me, but if he just cries and cries, don't eat and becomes very lethargic (I think that's the word for it), then I think it's best for him to stay with mom. I will ofcourse visit him whenever I can! He's still my first dog and the one I love the most! Anyway... That would leave me with one dog (if this happens. If everything goes ok, then two). Oh, and I have to allso note that Ben is fixed, because he's got allergies, he's very scared and frightend of his nature and he allso is too big for my taste (for breeding that is). And I wanted a girl, so I didn't want there to come any accident babies. Anyway... I'm looking for a breeder course in my area, and I've found one that is in a couple months about 130km away from me. So I'd be away for a weekend to complete the course. Then off to send my kennel name application to the Finnish Kennel Club. My first litter with Bella would come (I counted today) when Bella is about (a very, very rough calculation) 19 months (allso Bella's first litter). I might be keeping one of the pups. Before breeding I will get her eyes and knees tested and I will require that for the male aswell. I've allso been thinking about doing the DNA test for her (not so common here). I've allso been planning on importing a dog to increse the genepool. That would increase my number of dogs to four. Wich at this point of my life is the absolute maximum. Mabye in the future I can get fifth or even sixth dog, but I see that as a maximum for everyone - including myself. I have a dream of someday owning a peruvian hairless, a mexican hairless and an american hairless... but that in the coming 50-60 years of my life (if I live that long. ;-)). I always deworm my dogs twice a year (not needed any more times where I live) but if I'd live in a bigger place, then I'd probabely deworm up to 4 times a year. Both my dogs are vaccinated and microchipped. Both eat a good food that I think work well with their body (skin, hair, teeth etc. in good condition and both have got clear papers in the overall health checks) wich is called Nutro. (I allso give them a home made porridge daily made especially for them) My dogs are washed and groomed every 1-2 weeks, they know the basic commands and are housebroken (well not Bella yet, as it's still cold and snowy and I see the spring as a better time for that and I'm currently training Bella the basic commands. So far she can come when called and sit. I'm moving very slowly with her.). I would have pups only once a year or once a couple years. It depends on my dogs, our life situation and yes - me. All puppies would be registerd, health checked and sold only when I see they are ready for that. I don't care if it takes seven weeks or six months and they will be sold to good homes. I have even thought of adding a few paragraphs myself to the selling contract that will give me the power to take the puppy away from it's owners if the puppy is beeing neglected or abused in any way. (the contract wouldn't affect the owners and the puppies lives in any way unless the puppies are mistreated) Oh, what more? I will show Bella, but I don't really care if she becomes a champion or not. If she does, it's hooray for her, but if she doesn't it's ok. She's still my little diva and I love her to bits. Oh, and I nearly forgot... Even though Bella will not be bred for about a year... I'm allready looking for a good mate for her. I want to be very specific to what I want. Showing her will just clarify and confirm that. Mabye even give me more info that I've not thought of. I'm sure you're sick of this post allready, but I'd really like to know if you guys would list me as a BYB. The reason for that is that it's the [u]last[/u] I want to be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Crested! I think your plan = a GOOD breeder! NOT a BYB!! You sound like you've got this very well planned out, and since you'll be breeding only once a year if not less then DEFFENTLY NOT a BYB! Kiwi - [quote]Shara you can sugarcoat it all you like, She is a BYB, she sells unregistered pups, [b]her bitch had 5 litters by 4 years old [/b]That is absolutely disgusting. If anyone here bred back to back litters, especially to that extent, they would be immediately struck off the Kennel Club Registry [/quote] :o I think I must have missed that somehow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamum Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 [quote]I will show Bella, but I don't really care if she becomes a champion or not. If she does, it's hooray for her, but if she doesn't it's ok. She's still my little diva and I love her to bits. [/quote] Crested, if Bella failed to receive her championship would you still breed with her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Chaos Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Huh my post disapeared and SRC's did too cause I quoted a bit of it... :hmmmm: It said somthing along the lines of how people couldn't afford to pay for show breeders dogs and would be forced to go to a pet shop. Around here pet shop Dobies are $1000-$1500 much more then a show breeder would charge for a pet quality pup. So where would they go? To BYB's like (dare I say it?) you. You might take good care of your pets, but they are just that, pets. You breed cause you enjoy it well thats not good enough. If you truely want to breed and better the breed get a dog from a good breeder, show or title it in some way, do the nessesary health tests, then consiter breeding your dog. Don't breed because you happen to have two dogs. No matter how well taken care of your dogs are, or how little money you make, you are still a BYB in my eyes. And for goodness sake give your bitch time to be a dog and enjoy life without constantly having puppies. 5 litters in 4 years is too many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Lucky, did you get mixed up with the thread in "new members..."? :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Chaos Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Is it really? :oops: :oops: :oops: well I guess this can be deleated no use in saying the same thing twice, I think I'm going nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 you already ARE nuts :lol: This is the other topic: [url]http://forum.dogomania.com/viewtopic.php?t=11397[/url] it is along a similar vein :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Chaos Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Haha thanks for reminding me, I almost forgot for a second there. :wink: And thanks I found it. :oops: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crested Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Thanks Shara! :angel: [quote name='Malamum'][quote]I will show Bella, but I don't really care if she becomes a champion or not. If she does, it's hooray for her, but if she doesn't it's ok. She's still my little diva and I love her to bits. [/quote] Crested, if Bella failed to receive her championship would you still breed with her?[/quote] I would. Because when you go to a show, you get put into diffirent classes. I don't know how it's around there as I've been "studying" only Finnish dog shows, but here we have a class for them who aren't what the breed standard says the dog has to be and a class for those who are. So in my eyes, that's enough for me to say ok. Because if Bella gets into that second class, then that means that the judge thinks she is what the breed standard says she should be. It would be a diffirent thing if she would be placed in the other group. Oh, and I forgot to mention. I will breed for show, but probabely most puppies will go to pet homes. I think it's more important to get a good home to the pup that cares for him/her then a home that searches only for a showdog. I've heard of people who have bought a puppy for showing and when the pup then grows up with a flaw, they are sold again or given up... (or worse) So... I'd rather have puppies that are fore and foremost pets that have shows as a hobby then dogs that are just for showing and nothing more. Still I will try and make show quality pups. It's then the owners decition if they want to show or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendalyn Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Crested, I'm not meaning to upset you, but yes I think your plan does put you into the BYB category. You are planning to breed Bella before she has even started showing or competing in any events and you plan on breeding her whether she does well or not. Can you explain how you would be bettering the breed? I'm sure Bella is a lovely dog, but how will you be bettering the breed by breeding a dog who has not performed well? Can you tell me how you are different from SRC in your proposed breeding practices? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crested Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 [quote name='kendalyn']Crested, I'm not meaning to upset you, but yes I think your plan does put you into the BYB category. You are planning to breed Bella before she has even started showing or competing in any events and you plan on breeding her whether she does well or not. Can you explain how you would be bettering the breed? I'm sure Bella is a lovely dog, but how will you be bettering the breed by breeding a dog who has not performed well? Can you tell me how you are different from SRC in your proposed breeding practices?[/quote] I came here to see your thoughts on my plans for breeding. You know plans can change and I'm still not a breeder. ;-) And it's not like I have a litter on the way or anything. I just really dislike the fact of BYB's but I think there can be a very thin line between BYBs and "normal" breeders (I know, I know... lack of words!). But is it really showing that is the ONLY diffirence? Is it that if you breed dogs for showing, you are a good breeder and if you do the exact same things but don't breed for showing you're a BYB? Hehe... Actually I AM going to shows! Actually I've enterd Bella in two shows already that are in about two months. So if you understood that I'm not going to show her before breeding, you misunderstood, hun! :-) I ment that if she doesn't get her Ch title, I will not worry about that. It might be even that she doesn't like beeing in the show ring as some dogs don't. That doesn't make her any less of a quality dog, now does it? And I think I'm very much diffirent from SRC's breeding practices. For the first I AM going to breed for showing and even going to try and breed for Agility and Obediance. The two later ones will require a LONG time as Cresteds aren't used for obediance and very, very little for agility as far as I know. To tell you the truth, I don't know a single crest who is a Ch in agility or obediance. So that's one long time goal for me. But, knowning that most of the dogs that are bred for showing still end up in pet homes, I will not stress about that fact. I will put pups in show homes, but in the kind of homes that if the pup grows up with a flaw like an upper bite (upper jaw more forward then normal) or something like that, that the dog will still be loved instead of thrown aside. And then another thing is that when I look for a mate for Bella, I try and find some stud that fill her flaws. I mean... Bella's not got that good teeth (OK, but not brilliant), so I will be looking for a mate with very good teeth and who is from a line of dogs with good teet. Bella is small, so the mate can be a bit bigger (still not over 30cm as 33 is the top height in the breed standard. Ben is 33 and I think it's too much). Bella's got more hair than I would like to, so I'll be looking for a true hairless mate. Bella doesn't have a Ch yet and just in case she doesn't get one, I'm going to look for a Ch mate. So I look at it as a puzzle game. The pieces that are missing from Bella, I try my best to fill with the mate so that there will be very few or no pieces at all that stay missing. Oh, and I'm ready to go to the end of the world to find the perfect mate for Bella. Well... atleast as far as my wallet allows me to... (I guess that's the biggest problem for any breeder) I will not settle for a dog I don't like just because he lives close. And the reason why I neuterd Ben was that I didn't want his allergies, size, temperament etc. to carry their journey through him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crested Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Oh, and I forgot... Here dogs can not get a Ch title before the age of 24 months (it takes three certificates from three diffirent judges and the last has to come after the age of 24 months. After that you can apply for the Ch title for your dog). And [u]very[/u] few dogs can even succeed this (if I have understood correcly). So... if I would breed Bella only AFTER she would have gotten her title, she might be between 2 and 8 years old. So I have to keep that in mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crested Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 [quote name='kendalyn']Can you explain how you would be bettering the breed? I'm sure Bella is a lovely dog, but how will you be bettering the breed by breeding a dog who has not performed well? [/quote] I'm sorry, I think I missed this question in my last two replies. Can I ask you one thing? Is it bettering the breed if you focus on ONLY show and champions? I mean, sure that should ofcourse be focused on, but not the ONLY focusing point, right? What about health, temperament, teeth (as teeth and the hairless gene go hand in hand), naturally erect ears (instead of taping), good size (instead of too big for the breed standard), hair (as most of the cresteds seem to be more or less shaved hairless), skin (as cresteds tend to have zits, blackheads etc) and many more. If you ONLY focus on the showing, will you get a good result? If you focus on ALL of these things equally, then will you not get a better result with the puppies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 OK a couple of things... first, I appreciate your asking me. It makes me feel like you trust my judgement, and I do appreciate that. Personally, it depends a great deal on what you want. If you want show-quality dogs, I wouldnt breed her until she has at least 2 wins under her belt. If you are breeding pet quality it doesnt really matter, but I am gathering you want "best of breed" puppies...your plans for treating her, breeding her and your health and welfare concerns are better than most breeders have. You obviously care, and you obviously intend to do the best for your pups. That is NOT BYB... If you do the health, DNA and hips/ears/ etc health checks, and she passes, then you need to decide. Do you want to breed potential show winners, or pets? You will end up with both in any litter. You MUST keep the gene pool diverse, and importing is a good idea. I know that some breeders inbreed for a certain look, line and color, but I have a scientists background and can ASSURE you it will only harm the breed to do that. You can only rein in the gene pool so far before you start causing problems you didnt anticipate. all in all - your plan is a good one. You are conscientious about what you want to do, and are willing to make sure the health and welfare of the puppies come first.....under no circumstances would I call that BYB, even if all you want to do is breed purebred, well groomed, healthy house pets. We all have to start somewhere...you are starting with most of the necessary knowlege in place. I know some people said you are BYBing, but I dont agree. They are talking from show quality dogs that have breeders who are known and established...they all started somewhere too. Best of luck to you. If I can help you in any way feel free to ask. You WILL make mistakes Crested, we all do. Just learn from them, and you'll be doing your dogs a good service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendalyn Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Can I ask what intentions your breeder had for Bella when he/she sold her to you? Was she sold to you as show quality or pet quality? Crested Wrote: [quote]I think the only thing why breeding dogs is a good thing is if the dogs are bred for the showring, but mostly for obediance, agility, hearding etc. [/quote] I guess I am confused about how much you actually believe in this statement. If you're going to be doing showing, obedience or agility than that is great. But you plan on breeding Bella whether or not she is good at any of these things AND you say that you want to breed primarily for show quality. These statements conflict. If Bella turns out to do poorly in shows or obedience and agility then how can you say you are breeding dogs for anything other than pet quality? Maybe I missed it, but I still don't understand why you want to breed Bella? I understand that you want to develop Cresteds that are good at agility or obediance because it is an unfilled niche but I don't understand why you are choosing Bella to start this off. I think your plan would be a lot more solid if you waited to see how she does in showing, obedience or agility and than make the decision whether or not to breed her. Of course there are a LOT of breeders who are way way more irresponsible than you would be and I think your plan is fundamentally OK (a good BYB but still a BYB) Although I would rather most people not breed at all, you seem to want to go about it the right way. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendalyn Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 [quote]Is it bettering the breed if you focus on ONLY show and champions? I mean, sure that should ofcourse be focused on, but not the ONLY focusing point, right? What about health, temperament, teeth (as teeth and the hairless gene go hand in hand), naturally erect ears (instead of taping), good size (instead of too big for the breed standard), hair (as most of the cresteds seem to be more or less shaved hairless), skin (as cresteds tend to have zits, blackheads etc) and many more. [/quote] Maybe I'm wrong but I thought that part of the requirements of a successful show dog is that they should be healthy, have good temperments, good skin, right size, etc... Isn't everything you listed something that a judge would look at in the show ring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I reckon I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, part of me believes a dog should be a finished champion before being bred. However, I can kind of punch holes in that theory; at least in my own mind. For one thing, I've seen too many really good dogs beat by ok dogs in shows. Showing CAN sometimes be political, I believe, so it would be a shame if the dog who is considered "best" for breeding purposes because he showed well is actually not the BEST representation of that breed. Clear? Mud? To be honest, I'm sometimes really discouraged at what's going on with conformation these days. So many dogs of different breeds are winning bigtime in the showrings, but couldn't possibly serve the purposes for which some of them were bred. I don't think conformation is all inclusive, or should be the sole determining factor in whether a dog is worthy of passing along its genes. Also, while I like the ideal that breeding should be for betterment only, I also believe in breeding for breed preservation. Of course, there is no danger of the extinction of Cockers or Poodles, but some less popular breeds... well, like Cresteds- I dunno. With such a limited gene pool (I'm assuming), I tend to be a bit more relaxed in my views of breeding. If a dog were to meet all other criteria, pertinent testing, temperament, all that goes with being a good representative of that breed, I wouldn't actually have much problem with it. If that dog were assessed (after all the testing and clearances) by someone knowledgeable in that breed and determined to be a sound and good example of that breed, I can live without the Ch. in front of the name. Again, sometimes a great dog is beat out by a so-so dog just because of who is on the other end of the lead. Also, some people get so hung up on titles... there is a thread right now on one of the grooming lists about a bigtime Pom show winner who was bred many times over because he was supposed to be "alla dat." Turns out this dog has a really bad skin condition that was turning up in offspring (think bald Poms). The breeder knew about it, but since that dog was such a top winner and he had a ch title... It seems like I read something nearly every day where some top winning dog is passing along doG knows what to offspring, but hey, at least they're winners and PROVEN to be fit to breed. Maybe it's just my cynicism. I'm all for a very carefully planned breeding program and the breeding of healthy, sound dogs if it must be done at all. I'm just not sure I'm convinced that it MUST include a ch title. I would LOVE for showing and show people to always be honest and reliable, but since it's a flawed system, I really don't have any disrespect for anyone who is truly determined to research and try to create healthy, sound, correct dogs in a carefully laid out program. Of course, in a perfect world, I'd love to see all the dogs in shelters and rescues go into forever homes before ANY breeding, but I'm dreaming. I would feel entirely differently about someone breeding Cockers, Poodles, even Dobes (sorry), or any other popular breed this way. I know, double standard, but I don't see much need for preservation of these breeds at this time as the shelters and rescues are just slopping over the brim with these dogs. Again, mixed feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Just a disclaimer of sorts... I don't mean to paint all show people and judges with the same brush. I'm sure most dogs who win do it fair and square and I know just how much work goes into it. My whole long drawn out point was that sometimes the best dog doesn't win and that a ch title is no guarantee that a dog is worthy of passing along its genes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 *Deleted* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crested Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 if I can anwser all questions in one go. ;-) [u][b]For Courtnek:[/b][/u] [b]first, I appreciate your asking me. It makes me feel like you trust my judgement, and I do appreciate that. [/b] I do trust your judgement and that's why I thought I'd ask you. :) [b]Personally, it depends a great deal on what you want. If you want show-quality dogs, I wouldnt breed her until she has at least 2 wins under her belt. If you are breeding pet quality it doesnt really matter, but I am gathering you want "best of breed" puppies...your plans for treating her, breeding her and your health and welfare concerns are better than most breeders have. You obviously care, and you obviously intend to do the best for your pups. That is NOT BYB... [/b] I want show quality dogs, BUT I know that not all puppies in the litterbox will become that. THAT is why I see it's more important to get good homes then to sell them to homes that ONLY care about show. Show has to be a hobby. Not a lifestyle. [b]If you do the health, DNA and hips/ears/ etc health checks, and she passes, then you need to decide. Do you want to breed potential show winners, or pets? You will end up with both in any litter.[/b] Both. Seems weird to many, but that's just me beeing realistic. I will breed for show, but as I said I know there will be dogs that aren't show quality in the litterbox aswell. Those will go to pet homes instead of me taking people into believing they are show dog quality. The ones that are show dog quality, I will sell to show homes. [b]Best of luck to you. If I can help you in any way feel free to ask. You WILL make mistakes Crested, we all do. Just learn from them, and you'll be doing your dogs a good service.[/b] Thank you, hun! I will ask if there is anything that comes to mind. :) I feel like breeding dogs is like walking on a trapese in a circus. If you start falling to the left, you have to correct it by putting more weight to the right. If you then start falling to the right, you have to correct it by leaning a bt to the left... So I see it as a well balanced thing. If you see that a dog has something wrong let's say healthwise and you chose to overlook it. It's the same as just falling from the trapese even if you knew what to do to correct it. [u][b]For Kendalyn:[/b][/u] [b]Can I ask what intentions your breeder had for Bella when he/she sold her to you? Was she sold to you as show quality or pet quality?[/b] Bella was sold to me as a show quality dog, because I told the breeder that I wanted a show dog. [b]If Bella turns out to do poorly in shows or obedience and agility then how can you say you are breeding dogs for anything other than pet quality? [/b] I'm going with Bella to "dog school" as we call it, wich is practically the first steps of obediance. If she does well (she's a fast learner. I've already started with some basic obediabce) then I will go by that. I will allso look for an agility course. I was looking for one last summer for Ben, but didn't find one, so I'm not too hopefull about that (I live in a very small town). So it might be that I have to wait untill I move away from home to do that. If she turns out good with agility (wich I think she just might, as she loves running, jumpind and speed) then I will go by that with breeding her. And if she turns out to be good in the show ring, I will go by that. So it all depends on Bella if I even will breed her. [b]Maybe I missed it, but I still don't understand why you want to breed Bella? [/b] I would like to breed Bella but not before she's tested, been in the show ring and had atleast a couple good placements and before she's about 1,5 years old. That's the minimum for me. I mean, I wouldn't breed her before that age. [b]Of course there are a LOT of breeders who are way way more irresponsible than you would be and I think your plan is fundamentally OK (a good BYB but still a BYB) Although I would rather most people not breed at all, you seem to want to go about it the right way. :)[/b] I want to do it right. I really do. For Bella's and the future puppies sake. [b]Isn't everything you listed something that a judge would look at in the show ring?[/b] I guess so... But I still think that breeding ONLY for show ring is as wrong as breeding ONLY for pet quality. [b][u]Horsefeathers![/u][/b] I TOTALLY agree with you! That is the number one reason why I don't want to obsess about Ch titles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Kat Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Whoa folks slow down and stop shooting down people who want to breed a dog for a companion. Not all dogs have to be top show quality. If Crested likes the temperament of Bella, and wants a puppy to carry on her disposition, then that is her business. This whole BYB term is getting way out of hand. Yes there are a lot of dogs needing homes in kennels, but respectable people do have the right to breed their dogs. If Meg had not been spayed then she would have had a litter purely because I love her sweet temperament, and not because of cock and bull showring quality. Multiple litters I disagree with if they are over such a short period of time, but the price and intentions of selling a pup will depend on a lot of factors, which include socio-economic factors also, which many people neglect to think about. i.e some buck eejit in England I know of paid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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