Guest Anonymous Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 KIWI-Maybe I misunderstood this part [b]I said her last 3 litters, I didn't say she had 26 pups at the one time! [/b] I thought they were at once. [b]Even then if they did it right I don't think they would make a profit?? Why are they breeding dogs in the first place if they cannot keep them to further their breeding program? That comment is ridiculous, if all responsible breeders kept all of their pups, how in the h*** would the rest of us be able to purchase a good dog?[/b] Its not ridiculous at all. I didn't say keep all. No breeder does that. They keep some of what they breed, you should breed because the dogs are worthy to pass their genetics on to others. Like you said this breeder is reputable so that has been proven. Not only because of this reason but because you want something out of those dogs for the furture of your breeding. They should still be keeping some from each litter and then selling the rest to other reputable breeders, maybe even some to pet homes that have been carefully screened. When you have large litters you have no other choice but to sell. Some of the pups may not be sold even if they are not kept, I know other breeders who have given dogs to other breeders and freinds kennels (including some to myself) and I have also given a couple dogs to kennels where they will be taken care of and given the same care they would get here and not be breed unless they have proven they are worth breeding. I would still say large litter or not you still don't make a profit. Sorry but I have to disagree. The average litters I have had/seen or about 7 pups, some were as large as 9 or 10 and I have seen a couple that were only 3 pups. I know it is luck of the draw as you put it, but that still doesn't mean they make a "profit" because they get "lucky" with a big litter. It only means they loose less money. Maybe you don't realize the expense put into these dogs. Quality dog food can be very expensive ( I pay $32 per bag) having multiple dogs means buying plenty of dog food, keeping them all current on vaccs, worming, heartguard. The puppy food cost even more when you have a litter and also have to feed the bitch this same food. I also give suppliments to the bitch. Health test run high, not just the regular test, but the ones while the bitch is pregnant and all the check ups. What if their were complications, what if she needed a c-section thankfully I've never had to do this but the vet here does it for $70 a pup that is delivered on top of a $360 surgery fee. A breeder I know just had to take her bitch to the emergency room because one of the pups was stuck in the bitch canal and the other pups died inside of the bitch. Don't ask me how much this cost, but Im sure it wasn't cheap. She also needed anitbiotics to avoid infection. May even have to get her spayed to prevent any furtuer complications and not take this risk of something else happening. She may have under gone too much damage from the rotting pups and its better to not make her go through another pregnancy. The health test on pups is also expensive it adds up when you have more than one pup, this is different than a $58 bill of health certificate that you need to ship dogs, this is a thurough examinaztion and cost $200 per puppy and also the shots, the worming, registration, vitimins, ect. Going to the shows and proven your dog is to standard, not just stopping when they reach Champion (not that you need/want to make all of them a grand champ), but taking a couple to Grand Champion or even showing your prospects all adds up. I prefer to drive whenever I can I've been pretty luck this season in being able to drive to most shows. Besides the entry fees, you have gas money, food expense, hotel expense, ect. When unable to drive flying is the only other option plane tickets are $200+ round trip. You also have to pay for everydog you take and they need a current health check (the $58 kind). I have to take off work for many shows I go to. This is all just basic stuff this doesn't account for sudden unexpected cost. Such as parvo, I've only had one dog ever get this they were fully vacinated and seemed to be 100% healthy. They got it anyway and really bad really quick it cost me over $400 to save her life ontop of everything else I had already invested in that year including her about 4 months before she contracted parvo and she wasn't cheap to begin with, the parvo treatment itself was $400 and something but it didn't stop their she needed a special expensive diet, suppliments and other such things to get her back in a healthy state with a healthy immune system, I also had added a new very expensive, custom kennel, a couple new dog houses, and I'm sure the regular stuff I always need to buy for the dogs, I had switched from $24 advantage to $30 frontline all this finacial stuff hit us at one time, a lot of extra money was spent on the dogs besides whats normally done, but its had to be done. All the little things that add up things people don't even think about I'm always buying this or that for the dogs, every year thousands are spent on my dogs. I never make any of it back nor do I try. Breeding is more like a VERY expensive hobby than anything else and I'm not complaining I love my dogs. I just don't think not many realize how much it takes to have and keep these dogs time and money wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 Kiwi and Bulldog Miss - Maybe I'm wrong but I think your both on the same side? I think you agree on the basic primary goals of a good breeder and that profit should be the last consideration if it is considered at all. I think all Kiwi is saying is that there is a [i]possibility[/i] that a breeder might make a small profit if their dog has, by chance, a couple larger litters over their lifetime (no profit though I imagine if you factor in showing, travel costs, lifetime care for the parent dog etc.) If a breeder does [b]everything right [/b]and[b] happens [/b]to make a couple bucks it doesn't mean they are a bad breeder, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanvean Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 A lot of times, people forget that the purpose of dog shows is to evaluate breeding stock (or at least, it should be!)...the purpose is not to allow breeders to be snotty :) To me, a breeder who shows his/her dogs is one who allows others to objectively say, "This dog looks like a Maltese should." If it weren't for dog shows, we'd have every breeder breeding dogs for what THEY found most attractive, and there would cease to be any common ground in what a breed looked like. Maybe one breeder likes a dog with a shorter nose...maybe one likes rounder eyes...heck, maybe one thinks Maltese would be prettier with a little bit of color in their coats! When someone decides to breed "pet-quality dogs," to me, that means they're breeding "not breeding quality" dogs. They're saying, "I don't care what a Maltese is REALLY supposed to look like." And of course, these are usually the same people who don't take the time to ensure that the dog also has the correct temperament and won't have any genetic defects or diseases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shannon_C Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 [color=darkred]I know there are to be many arrogant and snotty show people, most are not there for the fun and enjoyment but for there dog to win, obviously every breeder wants there dog to win but having a face looking like a Bulldog's swallowed a wasp because there dog didn't get placed 1st is well putting off. Not every dog is going to win so why don't these people just get used to it. I mean lets face it, they don't all have that look about them do they[/color] ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseatthebusstop Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 BYB To me is a breeder who breeds to make as much profit as possible the dam and sire are not health checked puppys leave for there new home at 6 weeks or less they do have papers. The breeder does not care who she sells to as long as they have the money :evil: the litter can be kept in the house Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Kiwi - NP. Do you think darkmystery will be back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 :wink: :lol: [quote name='DogPaddle']Kiwi - NP. Do you think darkmystery will be back?[/quote] DP - I don't think this topic was as controversial as s/he thought it would be. [size=1]ie. didn't start an argument[/size] :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 I know this topic is just about over, but this is a subject VERY close to my heart, and I want to speak for Ruby here. Dear Back Yard Breeder You might remember me, you must've paid a lot for me. I was from good lines, was of sound temperament, and at one point must have been a little loved by you (I remember all the things you taught me, like "sit", "stay" and the rest). I was a good girl, you even bought me a friend, another boxer like me, but a boy. No doubt seeds were planted in your head, and soon I was expecting, and after that first litter, you just kept on breeding me. The vet knows that I have been pregnant most of my adult life, my body is ruined, my boobs hang down, and I am malnourished. I have scars on my body - some suspiciously in the shape of a boot, but I want to forget that now. My mum says I must have been tethered ouside in the cold, as I know to have a lead put on my collar, but I have no idea how to walk on it. Mind you, the muscle wastage doesnt help with that. I didnt even know what toys were with you. I was good to you - you raked in money as I wasted away - the vet says one more litter could have killed me. I think that would have been a blessing compared to how I lived with you. I dont understand why you did it - I couldnt help the advances of the nextdoor neighbour's dog when I was tied out, unable to escape. You said I wasn't worth it if the pups werent pedigree, so you made plans to dump me at the pound to be put down. I dont know what that means, but a lovely lady told me I didnt have to worry any more. She took me to a kennel with my babies, and one by one they were rehomed. Another lady looked after me there, and one day she told me I was going to a new home. Home? Wasnt that where I was treated so badly? I was wrong! It was a scarey journey over the sea and in a car to my new home. Lots of people helped take me to my new home, where I met my new mummy and daddy and their bald pups. I was poorly for a while, and I've still got a long way to go, but hey! I've learned about toys, and good food, and more than that, about love. I hope my friend is better cared for than me now - you didnt want to hand him over did you? Was he better than me? What did I do wrong? From Ruby Message from Mum - its not just the profit makers that are BYBs - its the ignorant and uncaring too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midori115 Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 brought tears to my eyes. I'm so glad Ruby has such a wonderful home now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellieangel Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Brilliant post Kathy and I feel like I saw the 'transaction' through with you on another site and I know how much Ruby means to you,so that post brought tears to my eyes :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseatthebusstop Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 [quote name='midori115']brought tears to my eyes. I'm so glad Ruby has such a wonderful home now.[/quote] :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: and me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atghylin Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Please forgive my late arrival on this topic but I've not had a working keyboard for over a week and just got back to Dogo. On that note allow me to express my view of a backyard breeder. I have mentioned before that I plan to bred my CKCS, Felix. I will grant that I have made mistakes in gaining ownership of him in the begining. But after spending time not only here on Dogo but online in general I have learned where I made those mistakes and also how to fix and maybe even prevent those mistakes from reaccuring. Felix and I are in the process of learning agility, a sport I believe my very active Cavalier's temperment is more suited to then comformation (like my 4 year old Felix has a hard time standing still for long amounts of time) . Should he prove to be rather compentant during trials and remain competely healthy I will look into finding a mate for him. By healthy, I mean to have him competely certified against hip/eye/ear/heart disease (this includes MVD). BUT should he develop any of these types of diseases he will be imediatly neutered and all of the people I have worked with in regaurds to breeding him will be informed of his disease (this includes all puppy owners). Now, some you of may remember a post I made a short time ago. I was looking for a Brittnay breeder for my dad and was hoping for Dogo's seal of approval. In it I mentioned that my sister has a brittnay of exceptional hunting quality. I have recently found out that she plans to breed her dog. Natuarly I started to question what she did or did not know about certain aspects of breeding (aspects I've recently learned about). She knows little to nothing. When I came to the question about certifing against hip/eye/ear/heart she rolled her eyes and informed me that Dr. Mairs (our regular vet) would tell her if her dog was healthy enough to breed or not. I told her that that was not going to be good enough for some people, she would need to consult a specialist...she sneered at me, saying that it's good enough for her. :evil: I believe that (unfortunately) my sister is what could be classified as a classic example of a BYB. Please inform if I am wrong. Again pardon me for my late arrival. :oops: Amanda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mutts4Me Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 A little late, but I just remembered to come check on what darkmystery said (which is nothing, lol). And I have to say: I totally agree with you, Labadore. I already decided some time ago that not only will I probalby never have a purebred dog, but I'll probably never have a puppy, ever. All my dogs will probably be grown mutts from the shelter. I guess they don't have to be mutts, because there are a couple breeds I would love to own, but all will be rescues :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Why not a rescue puppy though Mutts4me? Ruby had 4 little babies (Boxer x Pointers) that wouldve been PTS - theyre not all snapped up in a second. :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mutts4Me Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 [quote name='KathyM']Why not a rescue puppy though Mutts4me? Ruby had 4 little babies (Boxer x Pointers) that wouldve been PTS - theyre not all snapped up in a second. :-?[/quote] No, they're not :( But they do have a better chance than an adult dog. I guess that "never say never" phrase applies here, as well, though. Ya never know what could happen, I guess. I just took in a feral kitten because it came to my door for food, and it was getting cold outside. Now, I originally intended to catch the mommy cat to keep, and probably try to adopt the kitten out, but mommy cat has proven herself too afraid of my dog to come in my house, and I've fallen head over heels with the kitten. I guess if the right situation presents itself, I may find myself with a puppy, just like I may find myself with a purebred dog (Mmm, Boxer :D ). But if and when I do go looking, I will probably be looking for an adult. Actually, few weeks ago, I found the rescue puppy I wanted. If I would've been in the position to get a puppy, I would have gotten him. He was an Akita/Collie mix (two of my favorite breeds!). Beautiful, and the description of his personality sounded just perfect! I was going to post a link to him on Petfinder, but he's not there anymore. Hopefully that means he got adopted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 I get what you mean now, and agree with you - sorry 'bout that :D That pup sounds gorgeous - hope he found his forever home :iloveyou: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nadooshkinz Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 [quote name='"Mutts4Me"'][quote name='KathyM']But they do have a better chance than an adult dog.[/quote] True... puppies are always big winners... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Unfortunately thats not always the case. With the sheer amount of puppies being bred irresponsibly, there just arent enough homes for the thousands dumped in rescues. Many dont even make it to the rehoming blocks, as there isnt enough space to take them in. Take Ruby's case for example - her AND her puppies would be dead now if it wasn't for the help of some wonderful people, and they were "desirable" boxer x pointers. They were due to be put down until those people stepped in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 2, 2003 Share Posted November 2, 2003 & have about 1 litter a year, since I only have the 2 dogs. My dogs live inside with me & sleep on my bed. They eat high-quality food (Nutro, SD, etc.) They are up-to-date on shots & worming. I have NEVER let a puppy go before 8 weeks -- and sometimes they're almost 9 weeks before I sell them. Some people have even asked when they put the deposit down if they can pick up the dog 'early'. I tell them no & if they insist I politely hand them the deposit back. They usually see it my way in the end. The pups are born in my den & stay in the house at least the first month. They are gradually introduced to outside & around 5-6 weeks are moved to the FENCED yard for the remainer of their time here. I give the first puppy shots to my pups & worm them twice before they go to their new homes. They also get treated with Frontline as soon as they're 6 weeks old. They have a bath & all new owners get a 'new puppy' kit of a puppy collar/light leash (they are small dogs), a food/water bowl, a chew toy, a 'fluffy' toy that I have rubbed on the mom, an info sheet with web links to housebreaking, etc. sites, a bag of the food I've been feeding, & my phone number to call in case of questions. My dogs are well socialized; the pups introduced to cats, other dogs, & kids. I even do 'stress tests' to the pups beginning at 3 days old. They are handled daily by me & visiting children. I am confident when they're sold that they're happy, healthy, & have the ability to become good family members. Several of the buyers have contacted me a year or two later to say how wonderful the pups are, how loved, etc. I even get pictures occassionally! And yet, most of you would 'look down' on me because I don't research pedigrees, the pups usually don't see a vet, and I don't do extensive background checks on prospective parents. However, I'm happy with my puppies & the job I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyM Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Surely they must see a vet for at least 2 healthchecks if they have their shots? The vaccinations are a course of two, and vets have to give a healthcheck before administering them? I'm sorry to say this, but if you dont get the relevant healthchecks before breeding, and the pups dont see the vets, AND you dont vet the homes they go to, you cant really blame me for coming to the conclusion that you are not a responsible breeder. I assume you at LEAST get the owners to sign a contract saying that they must not breed from these pups and should they not be able to keep them they must be returned to you rather than getting put in a rescue? Also, out of interest, why are these pups put outside at 5 weeks old? :o I suppose the real blessing is that you only have one litter a year, is this from the same bitch each time or do you have two bitches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 I was in pre-vet courses in college, then worked for a zoo. I was trained in how to give vaccines. I order my own & give my own shots (except for rabies, which is illegal in Texas -- but the pups aren't old enough for that). I live in Houston, where the weather is balmy most of the year (except for *maybe* December-February). Yesterday it was 82 degrees outside when I got off work. Why SHOULDN'T the pups enjoy my yard in the sunshine, my covered patio, & my plants (& BOY, do they enjoy the plants!!) deb c. [quote name='"KathyM"']Surely they must see a vet for at least 2 healthchecks if they have their shots? Also, out of interest, why are these pups put outside at 5 weeks old? :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarFox Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 I'm rather curious HappyBooker1...what tyep dog are your breeding? Do the parents of these pups have helth check? Like Hip and elbow tests? Are they certified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowie-the-Pooh Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 [quote name='Mei-Mei'][quote]And yet, most of you would 'look down' on me because I don't research pedigrees, the pups usually don't see a vet, and I don't do extensive background checks on prospective parents. However, I'm happy with my puppies & the job I do.[/quote] I don't look down on anybody. I don't think most of us do. All we are arguing for is what is best for the dogs. That's it.[/quote] Well put Mei-Mei. Also, if you don't research pedigrees, how do you know the parents of the pups were free of genetic diseases? What if the great grandparents of the male had HD and it got passed on to the pups? Seeing as you studied being a vet in college, I'm sure you know how horrible HD can be. (Just ask StarFox, her dog has it. Get well soon Zebra!) What breed are you breeding? All breeds are prone to one genetically passed disease or another, that is why it is important to know your dog's pedigree. Sorry, but pedigrees are important to me, not to prove that my dog is "pedigree" & of "blue blood" but to make sure s/he is free of any genetic diseases. You don't sound like a BYB though, because a BYB does it for the fast buck. You don't do it for the money, do you? :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 No, I mainly do it because I LOVE puppies but I don't need any more dogs! Although I do make a little money on the pups (by the way they're Shih Tzus, but pet quality). They are just sooooo cute & fluffy & cuddly -- I love them all. And my son & neices/nephews love to play with them. But I'm also glad when they go to their new homes..... [You don't sound like a BYB though, because a BYB does it for the fast buck. You don't do it for the money, do you? :-?[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Happybooker - I don't mean to put you down in anyway, but with that said... if you love puppies, then why don't you go help the puppies at your local shelter, and get your dog spayed instead? I just don't see the point of people breeding just because they love puppies. I've been asked many times by people if when I'm older I'm going to breed dogs, and every time I say "Probably not". If I did, I would like to do it the right way, and to help improve the breed, not do it just because i love puppies. But all in all, the chances of me becoming a breeder is next to nothing. I'd rather be a trainer, to help dogs and their owners, rather then put more unwanted puppies into this already dog over run world. The numbers of puppies and dogs that get PTS each year is overwhelming, if your not doing it to improve the breed, which it doesn't looking like your doing concidering you don't do background checks on your dogs you breed, then whats the point? I say go look into the eyes of those dogs at your local shelter. Look into those deep pleading eyes, all they want is to give love, and to be loved. And it's people who breed just because they "love puppies" who put those poor dogs there. I'm sorry, but I think it's outragous that your breeding just because you "love puppies" :x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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