APBT...absolute empirical evidence that genetics don't ...

[bk_blue]

Great informative posts as always from goo, rott, courtnek et al. :D

[Guest Anonymous]

Of all of the people on this boards to attack.... the implication is that goo doesnt know what to do, or that goo is perhaps not prepared to handle an APBT. that just shows how green you are to this board. of all the people on this board i would think goo as one of the best qualified to handle the situation. YOU really need to just go back and read through the posts that you have recieved thus far and actually try to understand them. dont just look...read. you have gotten a wealth of information free of charge and are fighting it. Take the info you have gotten here and go cross post it to othre boards see if people that own and raise these dogs dont agree, or even a step further know it as common knowledge. In fact it kind of surprises me that you dont get it?

[Guest Anonymous]

[b]Quote: "Another thing guest fails to mention is that this particular dog is 10 yrs old, and that we've been managing her with these issues for 9 1/2 of those years"

If those words of yours GooeyDog don't say "DANGER, DANGER, DANGER" well nothing does. You mean to say that dog has had dog aggression difficulties for 9 1/2 years now. WOW! And it appears that your other dogs have learned the same dog aggressive behavior too. Makes me wonder what's going on?

Why is it after 9 1/2 years you are still attempting to stop your dog aggression towrds other dogs? Why isn't your training working then?

Why has it taken 9 1/2 years to train your dog to be non-dog aggressive?

And if your dog is naturally dog aggressive, why even bother trying to stop the dog from it's own natural inborn PIT FIGHTING GENE?

If you have to practically hide from everyone inorder to walk your dog, then you surely have a dangerous dog on your hands, now don't you?

If people would stop kissing each others asses on here and look at the reality, then people may be helped with their dog problems. To blindly read that someone has a very dog aggressive dog and compliment them on how well the dog is taken care of, makes no sense.

Just like you folks on here voice your opinions, I have the right to do the same. If mine is different then yours, so what. You can continue to do what you want and what you believe in. Last time I looked I saw a freeworld where I or anyone can voice their opinions. If you don't like my views, so what. Keep on trucking dude. Life is too short for crap anyway.

[/b] :lol: :lol: 8)

[Guest Anonymous]

P.S. Anyone can copy and paste articles on this board and be well read on a subject. It's all together a different thing to actually do it. Which is something no one on this board could ever prove they do. Even myself if I had a dog. :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

KIND OF A ****-HEAD ARENT YOU? You are one of those closed minded people that just craves drama and relishes in ignorance. You draw absurd conclusions and then assume them as irrefutable fact.

here are a few facts for you to chew on:

1. the APBT is by nature, heritage, and instinct dog-aggressive
2. There are some dogs that are not, but they are the exception not the rule.
3. the training process never stops, at no time can you say "well ive taught my dog all it needs to know", and be done. constant reinforcement is required, and that goes for any breed.
4. pitbull is not a breed, its a misnomer used to describe about 20 different specific breeds and any mix that resembles one of them.
5. a WELL BRED APBT is the least likely of dogs to ever bite a human, this is another one of those insticts that was bred in all those years ago when dog fighting was legal. they had to able to grab a very excited, fight happy dog and pull them apart, and even though they are hurt and bleeding and very aggitated.
6. dog-aggression and people aggression are totally different, there are tons of dogs that are dog aggressive and that includes all breeds. but with the APBT the dog aggression is even in the breed standard. in the show ring the judge cant disqualify a dog or take away points for it.
7. there are level to the aggression- some dogs can tolerate other dogs as long as they are on-lead (like goo) and other cant stand to have a dog in sight. training is what gets you from the latter to the first. consistancy and diligence at no time should you take a dog with the propensity to be aggressive and set it free with a bunch of dogs(dog parks) too much liability.

gotta take the boys out :black:
more to come.....

[Carolk9s]

In response to the so called PitBull Fan

Why is it after 9 1/2 years you are still attempting to stop your dog aggression towrds other dogs? Why isn't your training working then?
[b][color=red]Perhaps Goo believes that training does not stop when the dog is 1 or 2 or 3 or??? Perhaps Goo believes that training, like bonding, is something that occurs over many years, the entire life of the dog? Now I'm not trying to speak for Goo, I respect her judgement AND capabilities far too much for that. When I am asked how I got my dogs to behave as well as they do, I say, 'years of practice'. Not a month, not A year, but YEARS. [/color][/b]

Why has it taken 9 1/2 years to train your dog to be non-dog aggressive?
[b][color=red]With a dog that is naturally dog aggressive, again this is an ongoing training issue. You cannot flip a switch, you cannot take your dog out and train it for 20 minutes a day for 6 months and say woo hoo dog aggression issues are ALL GONE. Maybe if you gave the dog a lobotomy. [/color][/b]

And if your dog is naturally dog aggressive, why even bother trying to stop the dog from it's own natural inborn PIT FIGHTING GENE?
[b][color=red]Are you saying Goo should have just given up on her dog? Does this dog not deserve to live? Does she not deserve a caring, loving home where her needs are met and her natural tendancies are not only known but dealt with in a responsible cautious manner? Or are you saying Goo should let her dog go after other dogs? What are you trying to say here?[/color][/b]

If you have to practically hide from everyone inorder to walk your dog, then you surely have a dangerous dog on your hands, now don't you?
[b][color=red]Goo herself has owned up to her dogs attributes and has detailed what she does to minimize any chance of inappropriate interaction. What IS your problem with this?[/color][/b]

If people would stop kissing each others asses on here and look at the reality, then people may be helped with their dog problems. To blindly read that someone has a very dog aggressive dog and compliment them on how well the dog is taken care of, makes no sense.
[b][color=red]Again, just what IS your problem with this? Goo takes strong steps to protect not only her dog aggressive dog but also to protect other dogs. Goo does not fight her dogs, she does not beat her dogs, she does not ignore her dogs, she does not insist ALL pit bulls are the same, she DOES care for her dogs, she DOES protect her dogs, she DOES see that her dogs have fun in safe environments. Though I suspect I know, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?[/color][/b]

Just like you folks on here voice your opinions, I have the right to do the same.
[b][color=red]So true. By the same reasoning, I have every right to consider you an idiot who does not know much but is nonetheless quite willing to run off at the mouth anyway. You are now so caught up in simply wanting to pick a fight and be critical that you are making even less sense than before. I did not think that was possible but I stand corrected. [/color][/b]

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[quote name='Carolk9s']In response to the so called PitBull Fan

Why is it after 9 1/2 years you are still attempting to stop your dog aggression towrds other dogs? Why isn't your training working then?
[b][color=red]Perhaps Goo believes that training does not stop when the dog is 1 or 2 or 3 or??? Perhaps Goo believes that training, like bonding, is something that occurs over many years, the entire life of the dog? Now I'm not trying to speak for Goo, I respect her judgement AND capabilities far too much for that. When I am asked how I got my dogs to behave as well as they do, I say, 'years of practice'. Not a month, not A year, but YEARS. [/color][/b]

Why has it taken 9 1/2 years to train your dog to be non-dog aggressive?
[b][color=red]With a dog that is naturally dog aggressive, again this is an ongoing training issue. You cannot flip a switch, you cannot take your dog out and train it for 20 minutes a day for 6 months and say woo hoo dog aggression issues are ALL GONE. Maybe if you gave the dog a lobotomy. [/color][/b]

And if your dog is naturally dog aggressive, why even bother trying to stop the dog from it's own natural inborn PIT FIGHTING GENE?
[b][color=red]Are you saying Goo should have just given up on her dog? Does this dog not deserve to live? Does she not deserve a caring, loving home where her needs are met and her natural tendancies are not only known but dealt with in a responsible cautious manner? Or are you saying Goo should let her dog go after other dogs? What are you trying to say here?[/color][/b]

If you have to practically hide from everyone inorder to walk your dog, then you surely have a dangerous dog on your hands, now don't you?
[b][color=red]Goo herself has owned up to her dogs attributes and has detailed what she does to minimize any chance of inappropriate interaction. What IS your problem with this?[/color][/b]

If people would stop kissing each others asses on here and look at the reality, then people may be helped with their dog problems. To blindly read that someone has a very dog aggressive dog and compliment them on how well the dog is taken care of, makes no sense.
[b][color=red]Again, just what IS your problem with this? Goo takes strong steps to protect not only her dog aggressive dog but also to protect other dogs. Goo does not fight her dogs, she does not beat her dogs, she does not ignore her dogs, she does not insist ALL pit bulls are the same, she DOES care for her dogs, she DOES protect her dogs, she DOES see that her dogs have fun in safe environments. Though I suspect I know, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?[/color][/b]

Just like you folks on here voice your opinions, I have the right to do the same.
[b][color=red]So true. By the same reasoning, I have every right to consider you an idiot who does not know much but is nonetheless quite willing to run off at the mouth anyway. You are now so caught up in simply wanting to pick a fight and be critical that you are making even less sense than before. I did not think that was possible but I stand corrected. [/color][/b][/quote]

THANK YOU CAROL! :D I wanted to say all these things as I read Guest's response! So we stop training at 2 or 3 huh?? :x Training is a lifelong process wether the dog is 13 years or 4 months old!

GOD SOMEONE CALL GUEST CONTROL! :lol:

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[quote]If you have to practically hide from everyone inorder to walk your dog, then you surely have a dangerous dog on your hands, now don't you?[/quote]

MAYBE Guest, if Goo walked her dog with lots of crowds, her dog could get in a fight with another dog! Then it will be all over the media, and you'll be gloating saying that YOU where right all along! MAYBE Goo wants to aviod situations like that! MAYBE she's TRAINING her dog instead of coming onto this forum and bashing us like YOU!

Man, we haven't had a guest in a long time! Forgot the feeling! :roll:

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[quote name='Michele']gooey walks her dog at that time because she is a responsible pitbull owner........[/quote]

:thumbs:

[gooeydog]

[quote name='PitBull Fan'] You mean to say that dog has had dog aggression difficulties for 9 1/2 years now.[/quote]
Actually, she's probably had them for longer than that, I wouldn't know though since we've only had her since she was 7 months old... she didn't like other dogs then, and became increasingly less tolerant as she matured. Fairly typical pit bull.

[quote]WOW! And it appears that your other dogs have learned the same dog aggressive behavior too. Makes me wonder what's going on? [/quote]
Well.... the younger APBT was found wandering at 8 months, initially showed some defensive type aggression towards other dogs, but as she became more confident, and matured, it developed more into an issue of her wanting to be boss, and trying to fight any dog that didn't accept her as supreme ruler. This was despite numerous attempts by her -then- owner to socialize her with other dogs and let her play. We got her 7 months ago, and she's mostly been seperated from the other dogs until recently, still hasn't met two out of four, and still wouldn't mind eating the newest one she's been introduced to. She will never be allowed with ANY dog expect for under the strictest ofsupervision, because she WILL fight, and we'd rather take a few precautions, than lose a dog.

The Dachshund was socialized some as a pup, then her owner slacked off on it, but most likely her problems stem from poor breeding. She was also defensive initially around other dogs/people when we got her (age 1 1/2 yo), bordering on being a fear biter, but has since gained an enourmous amount of confidence, and her issues are similar to the younger APBT's, except because she's so small, it seems she views EVERY dog she sees as a challenge.

[quote]Why is it after 9 1/2 years you are still attempting to stop your dog aggression towrds other dogs? [/quote]
I am not trying to stop my dog's aggression towards other dogs (though I have in the past, with dismal results), instead working to teach her better control in situations that would normally cause a reaction from her. It's an ongoing process, not something that can be changed overnight (though, given your past posts, I'm sure you'll find that hard to believe).

[quote]Why isn't your training working then?[/quote]
It has. As I mentioned above, a well trained dog is a lifetime of commitment, not just a one time thing to be done, then forgotten about.

[quote]Why has it taken 9 1/2 years to train your dog to be non-dog aggressive? [/quote]
My dog is not "non-dog aggressive", never wll be. She is, however, a very well behaved dog aggressive dog, and has enormous amounts of self control, thanks to the training we've done.

[quote]And if your dog is naturally dog aggressive, why even bother trying to stop the dog from it's own natural inborn PIT FIGHTING GENE? [/quote]
As I said before, I'm not trying to stop the dog from wanting to fight. Instead, I'm teaching her to control herself even when she want's to fight, by showing her more appropriate ways of behaving in those situations.

[quote]If you have to practically hide from everyone inorder to walk your dog, then you surely have a dangerous dog on your hands, now don't you?[/quote]
Call it that if you like, I think of it more as there being less chance of a stray, loose, or out of control dog running up to us and ruining all the work we've put in to get to this point. We've passed a few leashed, under control dogs while out, not the slightest problem. If that's hiding, then so be it.

[quote]If people would stop kissing each others asses on here and look at the reality, then people may be helped with their dog problems. To blindly read that someone has a very dog aggressive dog and compliment them on how well the dog is taken care of, makes no sense.[/quote]
The only one not looking at reality here is YOU. There have been dozens of valid, scientific sources quoted and or linked to on here that back up the claims I and other people have made on pit bulls being dog aggressive by nature... you've managed to come up with a few irrelevant pieces from unknown sources to back your opinion, and expect people to take your word as the truth.

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[quote name='gooeydog'][quote name='PitBull Fan'] You mean to say that dog has had dog aggression difficulties for 9 1/2 years now.[/quote]
Actually, she's probably had them for longer than that, I wouldn't know though since we've only had her since she was 7 months old... she didn't like other dogs then, and became increasingly less tolerant as she matured. Fairly typical pit bull.

[quote]WOW! And it appears that your other dogs have learned the same dog aggressive behavior too. Makes me wonder what's going on? [/quote]
Well.... the younger APBT was found wandering at 8 months, initially showed some defensive type aggression towards other dogs, but as she became more confident, and matured, it developed more into an issue of her wanting to be boss, and trying to fight any dog that didn't accept her as supreme ruler. This was despite numerous attempts by her -then- owner to socialize her with other dogs and let her play. We got her 7 months ago, and she's mostly been seperated from the other dogs until recently, still hasn't met two out of four, and still wouldn't mind eating the newest one she's been introduced to. She will never be allowed with ANY dog expect for under the strictest ofsupervision, because she WILL fight, and we'd rather take a few precautions, than lose a dog.

The Dachshund was socialized some as a pup, then her owner slacked off on it, but most likely her problems stem from poor breeding. She was also defensive initially around other dogs/people when we got her (age 1 1/2 yo), bordering on being a fear biter, but has since gained an enourmous amount of confidence, and her issues are similar to the younger APBT's, except because she's so small, it seems she views EVERY dog she sees as a challenge.

[quote]Why is it after 9 1/2 years you are still attempting to stop your dog aggression towrds other dogs? [/quote]
I am not trying to stop my dog's aggression towards other dogs (though I have in the past, with dismal results), instead working to teach her better control in situations that would normally cause a reaction from her. It's an ongoing process, not something that can be changed overnight (though, given your past posts, I'm sure you'll find that hard to believe).

[quote]Why isn't your training working then?[/quote]
It has. As I mentioned above, a well trained dog is a lifetime of commitment, not just a one time thing to be done, then forgotten about.

[quote]Why has it taken 9 1/2 years to train your dog to be non-dog aggressive? [/quote]
My dog is not "non-dog aggressive", never wll be. She is, however, a very well behaved dog aggressive dog, and has enormous amounts of self control, thanks to the training we've done.

[quote]And if your dog is naturally dog aggressive, why even bother trying to stop the dog from it's own natural inborn PIT FIGHTING GENE? [/quote]
As I said before, I'm not trying to stop the dog from wanting to fight. Instead, I'm teaching her to control herself even when she want's to fight, by showing her more appropriate ways of behaving in those situations.

[quote]If you have to practically hide from everyone inorder to walk your dog, then you surely have a dangerous dog on your hands, now don't you?[/quote]
Call it that if you like, I think of it more as there being less chance of a stray, loose, or out of control dog running up to us and ruining all the work we've put in to get to this point. We've passed a few leashed, under control dogs while out, not the slightest problem. If that's hiding, then so be it.

[quote]If people would stop kissing each others asses on here and look at the reality, then people may be helped with their dog problems. To blindly read that someone has a very dog aggressive dog and compliment them on how well the dog is taken care of, makes no sense.[/quote]
The only one not looking at reality here is YOU. There have been dozens of valid, scientific sources quoted and or linked to on here that back up the claims I and other people have made on pit bulls being dog aggressive by nature... you've managed to come up with a few irrelevant pieces from unknown sources to back your opinion, and expect people to take your word as the truth.[/quote]

:klacz: *Claps for Goo*

[courtnek]

[quote]If you notice in one of Pitbullfan's posts, he says "if I had a dog"....this person doesnt even have a dog......
[/quote]

to Pitbull Fan -

I DO have a dog - I've had dogs of various different breeds for 30 years.
I have had guarding breed dogs, Retriever breed dogs, worker breed dogs,
I think I've hit every category except Toys....I have both owned and fostered. I worked with a lady from the Seeing Eye when I worked for a trainer/breeder. You can say I know A BIT about dogs....

My dog is dog aggressive.
She doesnt like small children.
She doesnt like strangers.
I would NOT trust her off lead in a dog park, or a childrens playground.

WHY? because I make a point of knowing all the idiosyncracies in ALL my dogs. I know what they will do in any given situation, and I know what to
do to stop or counteract it.

Slamming Gooey, honestly, has pissed me off now. She has worked very hard to bring her dogs up with love, training, and good self control.
Saying she should have had her Pit trained already is like saying kids only need to be taught for 12 years, once out of school there is no more
learning to do. YOU have a lot to learn obviously.

Oh and by the way? My ill tempered, dog aggressive, child avoiding
dog is a LAB!!! NOT a Pit Bull....

Breed standards cannot accomodate individual personalities of the
dogs. And while you're at it, STOP slamming Rott, too....

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[courtnek]

Oh, and one more thing, I KNOW why my dog behaves the way she does. That comes with experience as well.

My Ex would not allow her to be socialized with other dogs - he wanted her to mistrust everybody

He would not allow her to socialize with people, for the same reason.

He teased her relentlessly which made her angry. He thought this would make her a good "guard dog" - She's a LAB for God's sake!!!

She has issues, which we are slowly working through now that he is no longer here. But the damage is already done. I may NEVER be able to trust her offleash ANYWHERE. That doesnt mean I lover her any less, just that I have to be more careful than most.

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='PitBull Fan']P.S. Anyone can copy and paste articles on this board and be well read on a subject. It's all together a different thing to actually do it. Which is something no one on this board could ever prove they do. [/quote]

And you can't prove they don't. You also can't prove any of the crap you keep spouting off, so what's your point besides just trying to hash out a smear campaign against Goo? Oh, that's right... she p*ssed you off when her beliefs conflicted with yours a little while back. Nice that you had to come back as a guest to have the balls to talk that shiznit. It speaks volumes for your character.

[u]If[/u] you had a dog? What about the two that you let run loose at the park? Or is that your "buddy"?

Anyhoo, it's hardly worth it to try to engage in a battle of wits with such an obviously "empirically" unarmed opponent. Resources galore have been offered to you. Do you even bother to read any of the stuff offered to at least try to form a half intelligent opinion, or is it just much easier to argue using what you [u]think[/u]? It won't matter, anyway, until you can recognize the difference between dog aggression and human aggression. It seems like such a simple concept, but it still escapes you. How can it be possible that everyone here, including some pretty young kids, can understand it EXCEPT you?

[Guest Anonymous]

Empirical.... isnt that just the coolest word ever? :P
i have used it 4 times today!!!
Sorry :oops: i just had to throw that in there.

But seriously trolls like youa re good in a way. you come around and stir up trouble and then we get to find out how good of friends we have. thanks troll err, pitbull fan
:wink:

when i see how everyone bands together to fight this crap you are peddling off, it makes my heart all warm and fuzzy
:sweetCyberM:
:black:

[courtnek]

and for all of us WARM AND FUZZY IS GOOD!!

that's why I like this room. We stick together.

[Guest Anonymous]

So what to our insultve comments.

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

[quote=ROTT'N'PIT]Empirical.... isnt that just the coolest word ever? :P
i have used it 4 times today!!!
Sorry :oops: i just had to throw that in there.

But seriously trolls like youa re good in a way. you come around and stir up trouble and then we get to find out how good of friends we have. thanks troll err, pitbull fan
:wink:

when i see how everyone bands together to fight this crap you are peddling off, it makes my heart all warm and fuzzy
:sweetCyberM:
:black:[/quote]

I agree! :wink: If just one of us is bashed, ALL of us pitch in and defend our friends. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside too! It's like we're a pack! :lol: One of us gets into a fight, the whole pack pitches in and fights off the intruder (in our case Pit Bull Fan). I love you guys! :iloveyou:

Pit Bull Fan has nothing to say it seems....

[Carolk9s]

[quote name='K']Dont even know how I missed this...probably stupidly training my dogs or something...like you do...anywho...what???...maybe we should go back to dont feed the trolls? :lol:[/quote]

But..but...but....it was kinda fun! Troll bashing that is!
Hey, I never claimed [color=red][size=6]I[/size][/color] was not people aggressive! 8)

And so called PitBull Fan, what on earth does this mean?
Quote: So what to our insultve comments.

[Guest Anonymous]

Agreed, it was quite a spot of fun, wasnt it? Its strange with all the controversy that surrounds the APBT as a breed, there are two extremes.
there are the "Pitbulls" are killer, baby-eating monster people, who have it wrong and there are the its all how you raise them and they wouldnt hurt a fly people who are just as wrong. all dogs have the ability to be aggressive no matter how you raise them and the APBT is no exception.

Some dogs are just aggressive or on the flip-side some dogs are too timid and bite out of fear. My grandmothers pug was like that she was very scared of people and if you tried to pet her she would snap and run off. she was abused as a puppy and had a hard time trusting people after that.

If you take any dog and chain it up in the back yard, only feed and water it, it can be every bit as aggressive as any pit bull. but because its not a pit bull its twice as dangerous! because people think most dogs are just sweet little darlings and wouldnt have the preconcieved notion they do with APBTs. And how many times have you had people just walk up to you or your dog without asking and try to pet it? I personally find it rude to do so.

[Carolk9s]

[quote name='K']Is anyone close enough to put a muzzle on Carol?..and if so do you dare??? :lol: [/quote]

Muzzle ala Hannibal Lector? 8)

No not the muzzle PLEEEEESE!
I'll be good, I promise! In fact, I'll swat myself with the newspaper ok?
Ooooh, even better, I'll send myself to my bed and make myself stay there for a whole hour! Will that do? I won't even play with any toys either! :D

[Guest Anonymous]

OKay, I swore I wouldn't get into this, because I don't know too much about APBTs, but I do know a lot about aggression, 'pecially dog aggression and people aggression, and all I have to say is.
"Pitbull Fan" would ya freakin LEAVE ALREADY?! Your starting to seriously bug me! :evil: :drinking:

[courtnek]

[quote]Hey, I never claimed I was not people aggressive!

[/quote]

hehehehehehe - NEITHER DID I...just TRY to muzzle me....LOL

:evilbat:

Pitbull Fan, "insultive" is not a real word in any dictionary I own....

And if you all you want to do is be "insultING" than I am with the pack
who says "go away until you can be civilized".

You dont have to stay here, we wont force you. We are all very close on this board, and yes, we have our disagreements, and we dont always
believe the same things, but that is allowed IF DONE in a civilized and
responsible manner. We also expect people to be able to back up what they say, with PROOF, not allegations.

If you want to troll, go elsewhere. If you want to learn, share and be
a part of this board, then you need to clean up your act.

[Guest Anonymous]

:klacz: well said Court, well said.

[courtnek]

[quote]Hey, I never claimed I was not people aggressive!




hehehehehehe - NEITHER DID I...just TRY to muzzle me....LOL

[/quote]

uh oh... K is probably going to send me to my bed and muzzle me......


:lol: