Guest Anonymous Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 what would happen if a mother dog breeded with her son..............what kinds puppies would they create...........woudl they have nay problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I hope you're not asking with intentions of doing it? Yes, there may be problems, any problems which are recessive and only come out in rare cases will most probably show in the pups, which will lead are life of pain due to a variety of genetic defects which will cost $1000's each year to treat. I'm not an expert but I do know that it shouldn't be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowie-the-Pooh Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I also hope you have no intentions of doing it, either. The results will be horrible, many may be still born, and they will certainly have genetic defects. Most probably, they will not survive. If they do, it will take ALOT of money to keep them alive and healthy. Plus the cost of taking care of the mother AND her son (whom she has mated with :o ). These puppies are what they call inbred. And if your dogs have already mated I suggest that you read up alot about your certain situation and do your research. This will be a very uncomfortable time for your dog and you, and believe me there will be problems. Also, there is the risk of your dog dying as a result of bad breeding. Remember, after the puppies are born and weaned, take the mother AND her son to get neutered and spayed, the shelters of the world are already too over crowded. PLEASE help the pet over population problem. And make sure if you are to sell the puppies, to have some kind of contract to make sure the puppies new owners are going to spay/neuter them. Also, you must inform the new owners that the puppies are inbred, and that there will be some kind of genetic problems with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellieangel Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Some good advice there and I guess I have nothing to add except it is also morally wrong,it would never happen in the wild would it ? In which case it just isn't natural :( Don't let it happen,get them both neutered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseatthebusstop Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 if it has already happened see your vet as soon as possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanvean Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 It is very, very occasionally done by experienced breeders, but ONLY ones who know in great detail what they are doing and why. I would never, ever recommended it being tried by someone who hasn't been breeding dogs (and showing them and studying genetics) for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 :-? [quote name='Sanvean']It is very, very occasionally done by experienced breeders, but ONLY ones who know in great detail what they are doing and why. I would never, ever recommended it being tried by someone who hasn't been breeding dogs (and showing them and studying genetics) for decades.[/quote] From what I understand, experienced breeders will do it if they are trying to SET TYPE or if they are trying to find the culprit of a serious genetic fault in order to eliminate that line from the gene pool. :angel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 [quote name='ellieangel']it would never happen in the wild would it ?[/quote] of course it does happen in the wild. animals are still animals, no matter how much people are trying to project human values and morals on them. as soon as a mature male and a mature female meet each other at the right time, nature doesn't care if they are mother and son, daughter and father or brother and sister. that sort of inbreeding isn't healthy, because recessive traits will appear in the offspring, but as was mentioned by others before, it is sometimes done by breeders who want to achieve a certain goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 I dont know where you are, but the reason that "inbreeding" is not allowed in most places amongst people is because the genetic code is destroyed by breeding "too close to home". There Are laws in most places that dont allow people too closely related to mate - cousins, 2nd cousins, 3rd cousins...it becomes a genetic nightmare and causes diseases. diseases like lack of the ability for blood to clot - common among the Aristocracies that bred too close to home. Hemophelia. The same diseases come up in dogs. Bred too close to home, they have temperment problems, they have health issues, and generally, dont live too long. You have to keep the genetic diversity strong, for all the "children" to be strong, and able to survive. If you have dogs bred "too close to home". they WILL have major issues. Nasty issues... Inbreeding has been a major problem for dogs...the inbred dogs are not "nice", are not "trainable" are not "loving"... and they end up in shelters, because their owners didnt knoe any better, and now have a dog they cant deal with.... this needs to stop.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieLover Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 I always heard it was fine to do mother son or father daughter just not brother and sister. The first one you don't have to worry about any birth defects or anything of that nature. If the siblings mate than you would have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroura Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Sorry Aussie, but you heard wrong. Breeding any thing that closely related is a recipe for disaster. [quote name='Sanvean']It is very, very occasionally done by experienced breeders, but ONLY ones who know in great detail what they are doing and why. I would never, ever recommended it being tried by someone who hasn't been breeding dogs (and showing them and studying genetics) for decades.[/quote] Yes, true - but anyone who has to ask such questions is no where near close enough to doing that for at least another 25 years, it takes ALOT of experience to even contemplate line breeding (note - NOT inbreeding, which should never be done) and even then they have to be extremely careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 [b]Guest wrote:[/b][quote] of course it does happen in the wild. animals are still animals, no matter how much people are trying to project human values and morals on them. as soon as a mature male and a mature female meet each other at the right time, nature doesn't care if they are mother and son, daughter and father or brother and sister. [/quote] Guest, where are you getting your information??? I know for a fact that wild animals on the most part do not interbreed...especially mother to son etc...in the wild the young males once mature find new territory and will fight for new mates...they do not stay in the same territory as their mother. For some factual information IF an inbreeding does occur (lets take the white tail deer for example) then you can have pie-bald or white offspring...most times these off colored young fawns will not make it as the mother does not give them special attention...and most times are left to die. A white or pie-bald deer is a defect for a deer and is not practical for hiding from predators...so there is a reason for wild animals not inbreeding...it would cause all sorts of genetic defects and odd coloring which would have them stand out in the wild...when what they need to do is blend in...even wild horses...there is only one stallion per herd...the young stallions have to leave the herd and fight for control of a new herd. If nauture made the same mistakes as we do with our purebred dogs and the inbreeding we do then you would see alot of genetic diseases in our wild animals..deer that couldnt run..coyotes that couldn't chase due to some thing like HD...with purebred dogs the stud book is closed on a population, in order to promote specific traits, this inadvertently and dangerously starts a process of inbreeding. If wild animals started to inbreed then you would see wolves & coyotes etc with hip dysplasia, patella problems...and a list of other genetic disorders that we as man have brought on to our purebred dogs..lets take for example the dog-show winner, this dog becomes the favored breeding dog, and the tiny population that qualifies for inclusion in the breeds's stud book is now funneled through these few "best" individuals. To breed heavily to champions is to substantially reduce the effective population size. It channels the available genes through a few individuals. If every owner of a female only bred his dog to this year's champion, then the next generation of dogs would all have the same father. Then the generation after that would all be brother-sister crosses. Thus, the breeding to champions increases the inbreeding coefficient very rapidly. On the surface some popular breds may appear to have a large population, but their genealogies - their pedigrees - indicate that most of them share close ancestors and there fore also genetic alleles...so as you can see inbreeding takes place in the "purebred" world quite often...this is why we have so many genetic diseases...like HD...this disease of the hip is not a typical disease that happens...I would say it is man made...reputable breeders on the surface may seem like they are doing a great thing for the dogs...but, they are not...they are actually doing our dogs a great disservice. So is you want to see dogs which are inbreed...sister to brother, father to daughter etc...go to a dog show -conformation class.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanvean Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 I absolutely disagree, Cassie. If animals in nature "know" not to breed incestually, then wouldn't domesticated animals "know" the same thing? Wouldn't a male dog, say, refuse to mate with his daughter? Whiile some animals have social structures that would prevent this (say, males generally leave the family group when they're of a certain age), many others do not. This article is very interesting: [url]http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/inbreeding.htm[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 From my understanding - sifted from college (not uni so take it for what its worth) Ed in wildlife and ecosystem management: The majority of mammals will inbreed if issues of dominance allow and opportunity arises. BUT the social structure of most mammals inhibits this by such things like Cassie was mentioning. The social structure acts as the inbreeding safety net by removing young males from the pack or similar behaviours that make it unlikely that two closely related family members would remain in the same group or have the opportunity to breed. Some animals will not breed together if social standing in the group varies to greatly as well and sometimes the offspring of a particular member of the group can never progress in pack hierarchy while the parent is alive. There are a lot of complex social and behavioural developments that protect against inbreeding so that when it happens occasionally it is a) by some stroke of luck not a big deal or b) more commonly creates a genetic difference that leads to the animal being culled, either by survival of the fittest or by more behavioural developments in the pack. The other possible deterrent for inbreeding may be pheromones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 [quote]I absolutely disagree, Cassie. If animals in nature "know" not to breed incestually, then wouldn't domesticated animals "know" the same thing? Wouldn't a male dog, say, refuse to mate with his daughter? [/quote] They do "know" in a way that our dogs dont...in a wolf pack, only the alpha male and female are allowed to mate. In some rare instances, due to pack size being too small for viability, the beta's will also be allowed to mate. The interesting thing is that ONLY the alpha (and occasionally beta) females come into season. That's how nature controls the whole structure. and then only once a year. with domestication, the pack rules got changed drastically. also, with purebreeding, the natural rythym got changed as well. Some domestic dogs come into heat three times a year, some more. Because of the pack rules, an alpha male will not mate with his daughter because she wont come into season, and an alpha female will not mate with her son because the alpha male wont allow it. I'm not sure how it works with horses and deer, but I magine it;s something similar.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Thanks Courtnek - that is a perfect example of what I was trying to say (rather unsuccusfully) here: [quote]Some animals will not breed together if social standing in the group varies to greatly as well and sometimes the offspring of a particular member of the group can never progress in pack hierarchy while the parent is alive.[/quote] Good point on why domesticated dogs would be more prone to inbreeding than wild dogs too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 It is amazing how nature gives the wild animals instinct to survive and survival of the fittest to keep animals strong...its very interesting...Dogpaddle and Courtnek your knowledge is fasinating... Nature does a pretty good job of keeping animals healthy...humans have a way of messing up the natural order of such things and making a mess...then trying to blame heridatary diseases on nature! :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 [quote]I absolutely disagree, Cassie. If animals in nature "know" not to breed incestually, then wouldn't domesticated animals "know" the same thing? Wouldn't a male dog, say, refuse to mate with his daughter? Whiile some animals have social structures that would prevent this (say, males generally leave the family group when they're of a certain age), many others do not. [/quote] Sanvena, first I would like to state that our "domestic" dogs have lost most of their natural instincts...if you took a few maltese and left them in the woods...would they survive?? no they wouldn't. Domesticated dogs depend on man to survive, ..as for animals in the wild they have natural instinct which helps them to survive....inbreeding can occur...but even in your article which you posted man is usually always the culprit behind it...we modernize the animals natural habitates building cities and chopping down natural habitates and make it very difficult for them to leave the area to find their own territories...do you ever wonder if this could be the reason there are so many animals on their way to becoming extinct or many animals which are already extinct??? perhaps it is due to inbreeding and weakening the animals so they cannot survive.. and no, wild animals do not automatically "know" which animals within their species they are related to...that is why they have such strict herd or pack order... this helps them to prevent inbreeding....we humans also follow rulse to help us keep tract so as to not have inbreeding...that is why marrige is such a popular thing to do...we keep tract of "our" pedigrees by marriage & documents...I have traced my family tree back many generations due to marriage documents that are kept on record. I think courtnek said it best. [quote]There Are laws in most places that dont allow people too closely related to mate - cousins, 2nd cousins, 3rd cousins...it becomes a genetic nightmare and causes diseases. diseases like lack of the ability for blood to clot - common among the Aristocracies that bred too close to home. Hemophelia. [/quote] Man is a very greedy species...we ruin every thing that we touch...look what we are doing to our world...all our animals etc are just on the roller coaster ride having to obsorb the consequences man hands out to them...what an injustice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 [quote]There Are laws in most places that dont allow people too closely related to mate - cousins, 2nd cousins, 3rd cousins...it becomes a genetic nightmare and causes diseases. diseases like lack of the ability for blood to clot - common among the Aristocracies that bred too close to home. Hemophelia. [/quote] what really amazes me about all of that, is that the reason the aristocracies inbred that way (without realizing the consequences at the time) is because they didnt want to "breed" outside of the royal family!!!! They thought they were keeping their "royalty" intact - dont want to have any commoners in the family or anything.....how arrogant can you get??? they brought down their own houses, from disease, because they didnt want to mix with the "lowly"....most of whom were NOT inbred and would have saved the royal familes from disease and ruin..... we really are a strange creature when you think about it.....in nature, inbreeding is rare, because instinct and natural selection make the rules.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 so this person never answerd back.. did you breed your mother and son dogs together already ???? Please don't do it! :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowie-the-Pooh Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 I hafto say I agree with Cassie, DP, and Courtnek on this one! :wink: This is why there are very strict pack rules, and etc. This is why you see very little genetic defincies in wild animals, and passed on diseases. Nature is a very wonderful thing!! :D Courtnek, we have the "royal family only marries royal family" thing here too... :( Not as seriuos, but a man from the royla family may marry any woman he pleases, but the woman of the royal family must marry a person of royal heritage... :( Sad.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Cassie Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 [quote]what really amazes me about all of that, is that the reason the aristocracies inbred that way (without realizing the consequences at the time) is because they didnt want to "breed" outside of the royal family!!!! They thought they were keeping their "royalty" intact - dont want to have any commoners in the family or anything.....how arrogant can you get??? they brought down their own houses, from disease, because they didnt want to mix with the "lowly"....most of whom were NOT inbred and would have saved the royal familes from disease and ruin..... [/quote] [b]Courtnek[/b], what a wonderful statment! perhaps the same thing is happening to our purebred dogs...many dog breeders treat breeds as if they were a species, and sexually isolate small populations of them in an attempt to preserve their historic, ideal phenotype....where did this idea come from that in the beginning all dogs were purebreds and everything else since then that is not pure is a mutt???? I do beleive that people who work their dogs know that "purebreds" are not such a good idea...many people who breed for herding dogs etc know that crossbreeding keeps a sound dog which is called hybrid vigor...and I have also seen with the seeing eye dogs they are starting to cross breed Labs & Bouvier's to produce a more sound dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 it is correct that for the most part it doesn't happen, cassie - but that does NOT mean it doesn't happen at all. overall mother nature is pretty good at taking care of things and i am convinced that humans are meddling too much already. :) natural selection and the principal of "survival of the fittest" ensure that negatively affected offspring of inbreeding do not reach maturity to pass on defects to another generation. the same occurs in mutated animals, which do not develop anomalies due to inbreeding, but to spontaneous, natural mutation. if their mutation is of a type that is detrimental to their survival, they will not live to pass it on to their offspring. if a trait develops that is beneficial for their survival, they will be stronger for it and it may contribute to the way the species evolves. my point is that on their own, animals do not necessarily recognize their own family members and the statement that it would "never happen in the wild" is simply not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanvean Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Good points, everyone. I stand corrected :oops: Interestingly, some of the royal families (like the Hawaiian ones) DID benefit from inbreeding. However, that was because infanticide was practicide widely and any imperfect infants were killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 [quote]Courtnek, what a wonderful statment! perhaps the same thing is happening to our purebred dogs.[/quote] OK everybody, dont kill me, but I agree. Even with purebreeding, if you breed too close to home, you have problems. It is better for purebred dogs, genetically, to come from different families. Not too closely associated with each other. You can keep the "good traits" and breed out the "bad". but only if you have enough genetic diversity to insure that there wont be any other weird problems that show up. Good breeders know this, and look for dogs from "outside sources" that have the lines they want to continue, without the lines they want to expunge. BAD breeders just dont care, and from them you get the dogs with hip displacia, temperament problems, and disease. We can keep purebreds "pure", providing it is done correctly and a large variety of outside the family lines are used for the breeding. I am a big fan of mixed breeds, some people will disagree with me, but I think they are stronger health wise. Bottom line, if you take the best of the best, whether purebred or not, you end up with a stronger individual. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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