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Dogomania

Sick breeding


Guest Anonymous

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Guest Anonymous

I don't think you are listening, Rosebud... I'm not bashing your precious Bulldogs, I'm bashing the breeders who keep on breeding with dogs that have health problems, because they think that certain health problems or c-sections are normal and acceptable in certain breeds. Not *all* breeders on the face of the earth are like that, but within some breeds, most are. You are not getting my point when you get stuck on the Bulldog example.

Sheesh, okay. To be more fair, I'll just give an example of another breed then, right? Think of Chow Chow. Chow Chow used to look a lot like my breed, Eurasier, only some decades ago. Here are photos of Eurasier:

[url]http://www.eurasier-club-austria.at/Fotogalerie.htm[/url]

Then breeders started to breed a more cobby Chow with a short muzzle, small eyes that sink into the face, and stiff back legs. This is what Chows look today:

[url]http://www.chowwelfare.com/wcci/gallery.htm[/url]

See the difference? Once I went to a Chow Chow speciality show. It was a hot day and many of the dogs weren't breathing well. The sounds that came from their throats really gave me the creeps, I'd take my dog to a vet if he'd ever did those kind of gurgles! Many dogs had runny eyes and their coats were wet under the eyes, even while the owners were giving the last finishing touches before entering the ring. Many Chows were walking very stiffy. I have never seen Eurasier with runny eyes, breathing problems or stiff legs, but then again they have not been bred to look that extreme. Many Chow Chow fanciers have became Eurasier people because they are so disappointed with the changes and Eurasier looks like the dog they used to know and love. They complain they didn't used to have Chow Chows with the little runny pig eyes or pushed-in face or practically unbendable back legs, and they hate cleaning up the eyes or listen to the snorting noises or look at their dogs that can barely run. Those things didn't exist when Chow Chow wasn't so extreme. Some breeders are still trying to maintain the old type, but many are giving up because the lines keep getting smaller and they don't win any shows. Many judges have never even seen the original type.

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Guest Anonymous

I'm meaning around 5o years ago, though of course there are differences between lines and different countries... Chows have always been more on the extreme side in USA rather than over here.

Watery eyes/breathing problems/stiff back legs with Chows are old news. Anyone who claims they are not problems in Chow Chows doesn't know much about the breed or living in la-la-land. Again, I'm not saying that *every* Chow Chow has them, but their numbers grew at the same time they appearance got more and more extreme.

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Guest roo

There is and always has been a VAST difference between breeds that have been around for a long time and newer breeds.
Considering the Eurasier is a relatively new breed :lol:
Known as the above name since 1973, it has changed alot since then already :lol:
The breed already has problems with eyes,hips,thyroid,elbows,cruciate ligament,patellas. (and thats what i have come across in 15 minutes)
Who's to say in another 80 years or more what problems this breed will
encounter, will the problems that you state the chows have rear their ugly heads again, will the breed standard be more in depth, will the breed be hard to get a bitch in whelp like the chow? Who knows.

You keep going on about the chow having stiff back legs :o The standard dictates SHORT AND STILTED. :wink:


I thought this site was quite good.

[url]http://www.phnet.fi/public/marih/aarresaaren/english/edefault.html[/url]

And i found this article extremely interesting.

[url]http://www.mipao.com/confus.htm[/url]

I would like to finish this post with this :lol:

There are many many breeds out there, all breeds have some sort of problem due to the construction of the breed to make it what it is, When someone picks the breed they have decided on they have picked that breed due to the look of them and the type of dog they want.
You picked Eurasiers, your choice, your breed, your responsibility.
I do not know if you breed or show or work them, but you are a guardian for that breed now, you are responsible to keep the breed what it is.
If you do breed them you are the custodian of that breed, breeding to ensure, health, temperement, type and still breed to the standard.
Some countries dogs do differ in type to others, some people read the breed standard and interperet it differently to others, some people have
bug bears that bother them more than others. The problem we all have with all breeds is that you cant make people do what you think is right,
you cant make people look at things all the same. You also can't continually shove you views down other peoples throat and expect them to answer all your questions whilst you continue to insult their choice, morals, ethics, or practices. I politely ask you to stick to your breed you choose that you are the guardian of, to ensure it stays the way you want it. You do your job i will do mine.

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Guest Anonymous

[quote name='roo']You keep going on about the chow having stiff back legs :o The standard dictates SHORT AND STILTED.[/quote]

Chow Chows tend to have straight and stiff back legs. Why? Ask the Chow people.

Yes, Eurasier has several genetic defects. It's a combination of three breeds, so naturally it has inherited the bad genes from each breed as well. Luckily none of the illnesses are common.

Lovely closing statement. :D Perhaps you take all criticism and questionings as insults, maybe there's something wrong with my output. I was hoping to get some constructive talk about this, but guess not. Bye.

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:wink: :rofl:

To Roo:
I guess "Tifa" can't take it when the pressure is on. Notice how most of [u]my[/u] questions were avoided and we still don't have a picture of s/he's dog. I absolutely loved the article about Chows, particularly the part that was talking about not knowing what they're talking about and the flea ex.


To Tifa:[quote]I don't think you are listening, Rosebud... I'm not bashing your precious Bulldogs, I'm bashing the breeders who keep on breeding with dogs that have health problems, because they think that certain health problems or c-sections are normal and acceptable in certain breeds. Not *all* breeders on the face of the earth are like that, but within some breeds, most are. You are not getting my point when you get stuck on the Bulldog example. [/quote]

I have been listening to you and I have been trying to explain to you that the problem IS with irreponsible breeders, regardless of whether they are breeding for show or BYB, you are the one who seemed to be stuck on picking on the Bulldog breeders and I questioned you as to why, your argument on the c-section issue is an indication that your side of the argument was intended to stay within the realms of bulldogs. I myself do not own Bulldogs, I own RR's but that is my personal choice.

Again Tifa I ask you this.
[color=red]Please educate us on your breed and it's problems, regardless of whether or not there genetic, before you question ours. [/color]You supplied us a link to a breeder, I asked for [u]your[/u] expertise on Eurasier's.

[color=red]Are you a breeder, exhibitor or fancier? [/color]You never answered this.

[color=red]What is the main health problem that you see in your breed?[/color] You supplied us a link to a breeder, I asked for [u]your[/u] expertese on Eurasier's.

[color=red]How is your breed's club/breeders trying to eliminate this problem?[/color] You never answered this.

[color=red]Give us some education background please![/color] You never answered this.

[color=red]Where do your "statistics" come from, how many sources?[/color] You never answered this.

[color=red]Why have you not researched this topic to develop a basis for your argument? particularly the breeds that you brought into the discussion; ie. English & French Bulldogs.[/color] You never answered this.

:angel:

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Here is a quote from Raymond & Lorna Coppinger (biologists) this quote is from a biological view point:
Many dog breeders have poduced a contrary effect in trying to preserve breeds. [b]They treat breeds as if they were species[/b], and sexually isolate small populations of them in an attempt to preserve their historic, ideal phenotype. Sexual isolation from the greater population of dogs leads almost inevitably to dire consequences for those dogs that get trapped in a purebred. Indeed, the idea of trying to modify a breed's behavior into a more tractable type of pet, while holding its form constant, seems not to work very well. Holding the size and shape constant while changing the behavior might well be one of those developmental constraints that don't work, like trying to get ocular overlap and robust drooling in the same animal.
Another severe problem with locking dogs up reproductively is the problem of inbreeding. Once the stud book is closed on a breed, it is unbelievable how fast thay become inbred. I was sitting in a review session at The Seeing Eye in New Jersey one afternoon with John Pollak, a geneticist from Cornell, and I asked how fast inbreeding will occur once a population is isolated. A true teacher, he led me through a little exercise.
How many founding sires do you strt with? if you have just one, than all the first generation will be siblings or half-siblings. By the second generation, all breedings are inbreedings. If there are two founding sires (unrelated), then the third generation is inbred. So he developed a formula for me to go home and practice with. If I started with five hundred unrelated founding males when I closed the stud book, then by the tenth generation I will start inbreeding. That could be only fifteen years after the stud book was closed.
If I created a breed of dogs in 1900 (that is, closed the stud book) with 500 males, currently that breed would have been inbreeding for eighty-five years. They are caught in a genetic trap. And what can possibly be done about it? open the stud book.
The pure breed story is worse than that. Starting with five hundred males, I get ten good breeding years if I use all the males equally. If the members of the breed club begin to breed only to the champions, then the inbreeding is accelerated. If the stud book closed on five hundred males but every female is bred to this year's grand champion, then inbreeding starts next year. Is it such a wonder, then, that our purebred dogs have so many breed-specific diseases, increasing all the time? Consider the advice of the experts who counsel breeders to eliminate from their breeding programs those dogs that exhibit retinal atrophy or hip dysplasia. The inbreeding coefficient increases more rapidly. The breed is in big trouble.
The old-fashioned breeders who continue to create dogs by cross-breeding for specific, specialized tasks, like the lurcher breeders of Europe or the sled dog drivers, are, by and large, disdained by pure breeders. I have been chastised many times by newcomers to the world of the uncommon guardian breeds. How could I possibly crossbreed the pure white Maremmano-Abruzzese with those gray and black Sarplaninac? Well, I say, in the first place, my understanding of the transhumance leads me to believe that the Maremmano-Abruzzese and the Sarplaninac are not pure breeds at all. And in the second place, improvement of plants and animals, when performance is the goal, relies on crossbreeding and hybridization. The ability of agriculture to produce the quantity and quality of animals and plants it does depends heavily on crossbreeding and hybridization. The successful techniques of cross-breeders of working dogs are practically unheard of outside of their fields. What purebred breeders forget is that golden retrievers and every other modern breed are poducts, originally, of crossbreeding. That is why they have been good dogs. At least in the beginning, they had the health and energy that are known as hybrid vigor.
Surely we owe dogs more than tightly restricted lives and distorted body shapes. Surely we can give up the eugenics of the pure, the perfect dog, and create instead a population of well-adapted, healthy pet dogs. In my wildest dream, I imagine people who have given up the "What kind of dog should I get?" question and gone to "I would like to make a dog for this task"

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[quote]Breeds like the English bulldog are in a dead-end trap. There probably is not enough variation left to get them out of their genetic pickle. Unless the breed clubs open their stud books and and allow outside breedings, Bulldogs and the other breeds caught in these eugenic breeding practices are headed for extinction. The problem here is that unlike the wild counterpart becoming extinct because of habitat loss, these purebred individuals will increasingly suffer ill health. What is troublesome is that modern society seems to have little realization of what it is doing to dogs..owners don't seem to be disturbed about deformation....[/quote]
This quote is from Raymond & Lorna Coppinger (Biologists)

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[b]Roo ... TLCPets....[/b] are we NO longer allowed to have private conversations?? I am really sorry if my post somehow confused you or hurt your feelings, it surely was not meant to do that. Some people do not check their pm boxes regularly and I wanted to make sure she/he did.



[b]Cassie --- BRAVO! [/b]

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Guest roo

[quote name='Hobbit'][b]Roo ... TLCPets....[/b] are we NO longer allowed to have private conversations?? I am really sorry if my post somehow confused you or hurt your feelings, it surely was not meant to do that. Some people do not check their pm boxes regularly and I wanted to make sure she/he did.
[/quote]

Hobbit :roll: I have not been either confused or hurt by your post,
It just seemed a bit stange to me to put that post in when you had not
posted anywhere in the topic before thats all.
And you know people can have as many private conversations as they like. No worries 8)

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