Jump to content
Dogomania

"New" Breeds


Encyclopedia

Recommended Posts

:-?

[quote]Athenix do you know how hard it is to get even a breed that comes from another country 'recognised' if it isn't already so. Most of the Kennel Clubs of each country require a huge amount of generations and breed standards etc set before even considering it so I think it highly unlikely that people will be requesting that this crossed with that to be recognised. [/quote]

Jerakeen, [b]Then why breed these crosses at all.[/b]

My breed was originally a breed that was used by the south african tribes, quote from RRCUS breed history [color=red][b]"The Rhodesian Ridgeback is a native of South Africa. The breed's long history dates back to early in the 16th century when the first European men explored the interior on the Cape of Good Hope and found with the Hottentot tribes a domesticated dog with the hair on his spine being turned forward. This is the condition which we now refer to as the "ridge."....The foundation stock of the Rhodesian Ridgeback was developed by the first European settlers in South Africa to fill their specific needs for a [u]serviceable hunting dog in the wilds[/u]. The Dutch, Germans and Huguenots who migrated to South Africa in the 16th and 17th centuries brought with them Danes, Mastiffs, Greyhounds, Salukis, Bloodhounds and other breeds."[/b][/color] The RR was not accepted by the AKC till 1955. We still do not have uniformity within our own breed standards. That's about 6 centuries of breeding, how long do you think it will take for these cross-breeds to develop into a NEW breed. Do you really think the FAD will last 6 centuries and what is the MAIN reason for the breeding's? Is it to develop traits in certain lines for a functional/working purpose or just for a pretty dog that will make them some MONEY.

I think the whole point is that this new breed is not necessary, just popular right now. There are plenty of other breeds that will serve the purpose of these new expensive mutts, so why put more burden on the shelters.

Hey does anyone out here want to create a new breed say maybe a Rhod-Bull or maybe we could call it a Ridge-Pit? I got 6 centuries to breed more questionable dogs into the world, might make some retirement money in the process. Oh who cares about breed preservation anyways.

:angel:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 168
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Guest Anonymous

While it is true that every breed of dog started somewhere and that there were mutts made in the processit was after years of CONSISTANT breeding oy type and researched out-crossing that a breed is defined and established. Not with i got two dog they make puppies hey look a new breed, thats just ignorant. These dogs are simply mutts, or mixed breeds if you will. Now i am not saying that in itself is a bad thing but when you are mass producing a dog thats bad, even if it is a purebred its bad. mass production leads to change and mutation, loss of temperment and quality. Anyone can tell you that, so when you are doing this with a breed of dog that isnt even established you see the problems. This is a nightmare, i dont know who started it as a get rich quick scheme but people sure are stepping right up and spending hundreds if not thousands on one of these "special" dogs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just FYI - about the hypoallergenic thing...

People are allergic to animal dander, not hair, in most cases. Tjose cases of hair allergy would still be allergic to poodles...Poodle dander, in most people, causes the least severe reaction. Whether they bred them that wat or not I dont know, but if you cross a poodle with a lab, say, the genes will still have lab dander in them in 50% of the cases. So much for the hypoallergenic theory...

I dont think crossing two purebreds is the thing to do, unless you have a specific reason for doing so, and it still isnt a recognized breed. My poor departed Alex was half Golden and half Lab, and he was beautiful and
shed less then my purebred golden did. So for me, the "Golden Lab" was
a wonderful thing, but he wasnt a purebred. He wasnt a Goldador, or even a Golden Lab, he was a mix.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous

(just to add a little hummor in this very serious discussion...)
My B/F has a little MIX (they dont' call it a pure) who's a Shi Tuz crossed with Poodle (cutest little thing) so we always joke around and call him a Sh!t Poo! :lol: :lol:

Alright, sorry, carry on...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Jerakeen']Crested, Why is crossing to breeds a disaster? Exactly how do you think EVERY breed came into existance today? How inbred do you think Chinese Cresteds were in order to get the hairless gene stabilised? Is that responsible breeding?[/quote]

I mean that when we allredy have houndreds of breeds, by makeing new ones that number just increases wich means that stray dogs will increase, the new breeds will allso be used in puppymills when they get popular and much more.
Not every purebread dog has been made by crossing diffirent breeds and Chinese Crested is definately not one of them nor any of the other hairless breeds such as Perro Sin Pelo Del Peru or Xolo. For example Perro Sin Pelo Del Perus go back to the incas where they were conciderd as holy dogs.
There isn't an exact history on Chinese Cresteds, but they have been atleast dated back to year 1400, but they are probabely even older.
Now (from the 70's and 80's to this day) breeders have started to make Chinese Cresteds as hairy as possible so you can yourself decide how long and thick crest, plume and socks the Crested should have and allso taller, and THIS I'm against.
I myself want to be a breeder and try to preserve the little true hairless Crested like it once was, but NOT by inbreeding!!
I think you should make some research before you make false accusations.

I think mixed dogs can be really wonderfull, no doubt of it, but breeding for profit and makeing a name for mixed dogs so you can sell them for even more cash, THAT is wrong!

/Crest

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bec, if you still believe that the "breeders" of MIXED BREEDS are just trying to be nice and make a new breed that people will love, then look at this little guy who is sitting in the shelter now. Simply because his owners didn't want him any longer. If the breeders of this dog were responsible, they would have taken him back. But if they were really responsible, this dog never would have been bred and he wouldn't be sitting there with no home right now. [url]http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=1567129&adTarget=468doggeneral&SessionID=3ea0611f5605a47a-app1&display=&preview=1&row=50[/url]

Maybe this will let you know just where some of these "new breeds" end up Bec.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mouse, just because a book states that it can be traced back to the Han Dynasty doesn't mean it is nor that it has been pure bred since then. These comments are made based on carvings and statues which are claimed to be the origins of many many breeds, I know I have the books to prove it.
Rosebud, you stated why breed these crosses at all, why breed any dog at all? Do you really think that african tribesman kept their lines 'pure'? With regards to functionality I suppose that's difficult to define. If they are being bred as companions then that is their function. Yet again another one who believes that EVERYONE who breeds crosses do so for money. This isn't always the case the same as not every pure bred breeder does so for money. Some do some don't. Breeding crosses does not affect pure breeds at all. If you believe it does please explain how?
Rottnpitt, I do see the probelms when people breed for money but I make no distinction, like yourself, as to whether they breed pure or cross breeds. No dog should ever be bred for money fullstop. If someone wants to put the time and effort in to create a new breed and offer all that a responsible reputable breeder sghould do with regards to their puppies then there is no problem.
Crested, stray dogs increase because of irresponsible breeders and owners not responsible ones. Efforts should be concentrated on educating these people. Exactly how do you think the Chinese Crested came into being without crossing breeds? Do you have any evidence to prove that the Chinese Crested is NOT inbred. I'd be interested in reading it. Exactly how many dogs do you think the current stock of chinese cresteds stems from?
Bec

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, purebred dogs were originally crosses. But Bec, this is the 21st century, most of those purebreds are now recognized by the AKC. And you do not see too many recognized mixes in the shelter now do you? NO, because mixed breeds are just that, mixed breeds. They aren't recognized. And some most likely never will be. Cockerpoos may be because they were one of the first Poo crosses, bred a little over 30 years ago. But do you really think a Bull Boxer is going to be accepted into the AKC anytime soon? No, chances of this happening are VERY slim. Also Bec, if you pay close attention to the dogs in pounds and rescues and things, a lot of them are Poo's and Oodles.


The world is getting Oodles of Poo's these days. SO Sad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you kidding me the AKC STILL doesn't except the APBT as it's own breed and IT'S been around longer than the Am STAFF which they DO acknowledge. and to anyone that wants a DOODLEMAN PINCHER get yourself an AIREDALE TERRIER.
TO lucky: believe it or not people still use poodles for water huntin. My last next door neighbor had 2 and he said he'd never use anything else. He even got them clipped in the froofroo poof cut. which was actually kinda funny to see "a fat lumberjack man out with 2 "girlie dogs" shotin duck. "
DISCLAIMER: I am not against poodles or the kinda cuts that are designed for them. nor do I think they a girlie dogs just quoting the man himself. I love them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry Bec but I noticed that you avoided most of my last post. I don't think that any breed of dog should be breed for money. I believe in breeding for the betterment of the fully functional dog. However, I also still do not believe that any of these mixed/cross breeds are being bred for the betterment of a breed, even their own new crosses. Their are other options, and if these people were breeding with knowledge about what they were doing and not breeding for money then the crosses they produced would not be so expensive. They would not be selling them in the paper and pet stores, the breed would be heavily guarded by the breeders.

About the south african tribes, yeah I would say that until the european settlers came that these tribes probably did have a pretty clean line of dogs. You have to remember, that part of africa was pretty much isolated and the chances of other dog breeds being around was probably pretty slim. Now I don't know this for a fact but that would be my guess.

Now the avoided issue. It's been 6 centuries and the RR still does not have uniformity within the breed. There are lines that look more like greyhounds, then their are lines that look more mastiff. If it has been this long for my breed then how long do you think it will take to make sure the Labradoodle or Cockapoo has uniformity within it's breed.


As to crossbreeding endangering a pure breed line, no I don't think it will, if that was in reponse to my last statement "Who cares about preservation of the breed" well that was a sarcastic joke.


:angel:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bec, I think the point that we were initially trying to make (and have strayed from), is that this mixture of Cocker Spaniel and Poodle has become a rapid "fad", and that breeders of these animals are marketing them as "purebred" and charging outrageous prices for what is essentially a mix, or "mutt". The real problem lies in the fact that the breeders are not being upfront about what their product is; maybe if they were, then people would go to a shelter and find an unintentional cockapoo there, and save a life... It's the deception that I find most bothersome; the fact that the pet store I applied for a job at charges $1399 for a Cockapoo sickens me.

"Fads" create all sorts of problems within breeds, due to inbreeding (I'm not talking about the sort of inbreeding that inherently creates a breed) and overbreeding. St Bernards after "Beethoven", Dalmations after "101 Dalmations", and because of the popularity of Goldens, all of the various problems that some have today; Maggie was a wonderful animal who managed to do her CGC with me by 10 months (lots of work... lots of work... patience ;), but I'm beginning to suspect that the reason she succumbed to cancer so early on is the popularity and overbreeding that has happened (we did buy from a reputable breeder but as I've learned in talking to other breeders and our vet, this is becomingly exceedingly common and unpredictable... why is up in the air, though). I'm more concerned about whether or not these Cockapoo breeders are researching the genetics and traits, or just throwing a good show Cocker and a good show Poodle together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jerakeen writes:[quote]RR I suggest you take a good look round the net. In America there are 2 clubs for Cockerpoos. One appears to be far more responsible than the other so there are people trying to do it properly.
[/quote]

And I can start the [b][color=blue]Ooodle-Doodle [/color][/b]Club but doesn't mean its going to be a reputable club run by people with only good intentions for the breed.

A handful of "new breed" clubs is small in comparison to the numerous "new breeds" being created.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Encyclopedia']Bec, if you still believe that the "breeders" of MIXED BREEDS are just trying to be nice and make a new breed that people will love, then look at this little guy who is sitting in the shelter now. Simply because his owners didn't want him any longer. If the breeders of this dog were responsible, they would have taken him back. But if they were really responsible, this dog never would have been bred and he wouldn't be sitting there with no home right now. [url]http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?action=2&pet=1567129&adTarget=468doggeneral&SessionID=3ea0611f5605a47a-app1&display=&preview=1&row=50[/url]

Maybe this will let you know just where some of these "new breeds" end up Bec.[/quote]
And where many of the not so new breeds end up too, remember that the centres aren't just full of 'new breeds'.
Bec

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Encyclopedia']Yes, purebred dogs were originally crosses. But Bec, this is the 21st century, most of those purebreds are now recognized by the AKC. [/quote]

I think you'll find that the AKC does NOT accept MOST pure breeds of dog. The KC here in the UK accept more and the FCI even more. Besides, why should new breed creation be considered a thing of the past? The Cesky Terrier is a fast becoming popular little dog, recently created. It has achieved recognition by the KC and FCI so in time will be accepted by the AKC. Maybe you ought to have words with the breeders of these 'mutts' as their dogs haven't had the centuries of development that others have?
Bec

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Snowdogs, believe me not everyone who breeds cross breeds does it for money. I know some and they take as much time and care in breeding their dogs as I do and I've never even made a small profit on the litters I've had.
RR, I agree anyone can set up a club the same as anyone can breed but surely it is better to have a club and try to makl an effort than people breeding willynilly?
Rosebud, define a fully functional dog please. With regards to lack of uniformity of type in your breed then blame modern breeders. They are the ones defining the breed today, breed standards are so open to interpretation that people see different things hence different type. It happens in every breed I don't see why that should be an exclusion for 'new breeds'.
Bec

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Jerakeen']
Crested, stray dogs increase because of irresponsible breeders and owners not responsible ones. Efforts should be concentrated on educating these people. Exactly how do you think the Chinese Crested came into being without crossing breeds? Do you have any evidence to prove that the Chinese Crested is NOT inbred. I'd be interested in reading it. Exactly how many dogs do you think the current stock of chinese cresteds stems from?
Bec[/quote]

If you compare the number of purebred dogs in shelters with the number of mixed breeds in shelters you'll see a big diffirence.
I do agree with you on that efforts should be concentrated on educating irresponsible breeders.
No one knows with a 100% certanty the Chinese Cresteds history, BUT I do know that even if the Chinese Crested was a mixed breed someday in the past, that past was several hundred years in the past, so no, I don't have any evidence that Chinese Cresteds are not inbred.
If you search for articles on the history of Chinese Crested you will find evidence of Chinese Cresteds in year 1400 and they are probabely even older then that. But the breed is ATLEAST 600 years old.
So... If you look at the Chinese Crested as a result of 600 years of breeding and then look at the poo and oodle dogs, you can't even compare them.
Think of it... Let's say I would have a... Bichon Havanaise and a hairless Chinese Crested, both of opposite sexes and both sexually active (not neuterd or spayed). Let's say there was a misstake and they got puppies. Now I would start searching for homes for them.
Now here's two examples:
[u][i][b]Irresponsible breeder[/b][/i][/u]: Will get more money by marketing the puppies as purebred hairless Havanaises and telling people they are a new breed. Ok. New breed created!
[u][i][b]Responsible[/b][/i][/u]: Doesn't care about how much money he or she will make. Tells the buyer that the puppies are a crossing between a hairless Chinese Crested and a Havanaise and that you will sell them for practicly no money at all. And still see to it that the puppies have a good life and are treated well no matter if they are 7 weeks or 15 years old.

Ok. So the irresponsible made a new breed. That's how easy it is. Right? So anyone could make up new breeds, wouldn't that be a lot easier?

I don't think the FCI or anyone else will tolerate everyone makeing up new breeds by just mixing their favourite dogs of diffirent breeds together.

...just something to think about...

/Crest

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, Bec. I'm back.

If you think that you can start from scratch and make a Golden Retriever then do it. I'd love to see you try. And I'll keep all of those mixed breed dogs that you produce trying to make a Golden and put them in good homes.

So, your saying that I can cross my Husky with my neighbor's Shih tzu to make a Shusky and that's all right?? I'll advertise it as a mini husky that you can cut and trim to your liking. Hey, throw in my friend's poodle and I'll have a Pooshky!! A hypo-allergenic little dog that you can trim and it has pointy ears!! Wow!! (saying this very sarcastically)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Jerakeen']Rosebud, define a fully functional dog please. With regards to lack of uniformity of type in your breed then blame modern breeders. They are the ones defining the breed today, breed standards are so open to interpretation that people see different things hence different type. It happens in every breed I don't see why that should be an exclusion for 'new breeds'.
Bec[/quote]

Definition of fully functional dog. A dog that can win BOS at Westminster or other reputable show of the same type, master the field trials for it's breed ex. Lure-Coursing or Agility, be able to go out on a real trial for it's breed ex. hunt, track, herd, get a Canine Good Citizen or Therapy Certificate and cozy up on the couch with his/her master in the evening.

My breed happens to be a breed where you can get mastiff heads and greyhound heads in the SAME litter, it's not a case of poor breeding, it's a case of the different breeds that were used to improve the RR resurfacing centuries later. RR's are a guarded breed, most of the breeders are reputable and have placements for the pups before the breeding takes place, if they can't cover placements for a whole litter, they don't usually breed. They research lines and make sure that the lines are genetically compatible and free of the health issues in the breed. An example is a dermoid sinus, it is the main health issue in the RR, probably came from the African dog but still resurfaces even after all this time of [u]selective breeding practices[/u]. So the issue with the RR is not really an issue of poor breeding practices, it's an issue of stabilizing the breed's inherent genes. My question is do you really think that these breeders are putting that kind of research into a "new" breed to create a fully functional breed or are they just wanting to make money on the uneducated people who buy from pet shops and newpapers without doing breed research, based on the going price for these "new" breeds I would say it's for the money.




:angel:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree "new" breeds are mostly about money. some may do it to be god and create their own type of dog. but most do it for the $$$.
If it wasn't about the money how come we don't see it happening with the bully breeds? like a pugapit or my favorite a sharpitador. wait may be i'll be the first one on my block with a Poopit. Why wouldn't this happen ? because people have a fear of this breed due to the media. they aren't seen as a cuddly, "safe" bred eventhough they have a better temperment than most other breeds when it comes to the GCC tests.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, I have had enough of this mess. These mutts have no business being created. The breeders do it to make money and that is all there is to it. I do not care if they can say they did it to make a good companion or whatever. Just about every breed of dog out there can make a great companion. We have NO need for more and more breeds on this planet. We have more than enough as it is. That is why so many are close to extinction. That's why I dispise mixed breed breeders. :evil:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Encyclopedia']OK, I have had enough of this mess. These mutts have no business being created. The breeders do it to make money and that is all there is to it. I do not care if they can say they did it to make a good companion or whatever. Just about every breed of dog out there can make a great companion. We have NO need for more and more breeds on this planet. We have more than enough as it is. That is why so many are close to extinction. That's why I dispise mixed breed breeders. :evil:[/quote]

Exacly! But if someone has a mixed misstake litter, that is ok in my eyes, because misstakes aren't planned. Yeah, sure you can plan a mixed litter and say it was a misstake litter, but that's a lie. So if it was sincerely a misstake, then THAT is ok in my eyes. What do you think?

And there are allredy dogs that are big, small, longhaired, shorthaired, curledhaired, grooming, non-grooming, active, couch potatoes, hairy, hairless, easy to train, challenging to train and many more. I'm absolutely perfecly sure that there is a breed for every single one of us without makeing a new one! How many people have gone through all 300-400 breeds (rare breeds included) through and said that none of them is the perfect dog for them??

Oh, why aren't there a hairlesspoo? That's a dog I would buy! :lol:

/Crest

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous

What about an AMERICAN PIT POO TERRIER OR AN AMERICAN STAFFORD-POO TERRIER. Let me stop joking before some dumb-ass tries to make one.
***disclaimer*** it would not be profitable to make a either of these two breeds. the preceeding was a joke and not intended to be acted upon.

:black:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On that note, Rott, I have a question (probably a dumb one, but I am not real familiar with the bully breeds)

What is the difference between an American Staffordshire Terrier and a American Pitt Bull Terrier?

Are the AST's less aggressive? Sorry, I dont mean to upset anyone, I just want to know....

thanks

Katy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...