FINALLY! People are gettin it! :D

[Guest Anonymous]

[i]My dad left this for me on the table this morning, it was in the Lifestyles section of the newspaper (the Prince George Citizen). [sorry if there's any typos, that would be on my part of the typing :wink: ] Okay, also notice how when they talk about the pets that have died, they don't mention that they were probably too old for the diet, or that something was wrong with how they were fed?
I'm glad this was printed, gets the info out there to people. Good and bad, and states some good arguments, and is even "recomended" by a vet in there. (although he said himself he doesn't recomended it unless he's asked about it, which is good)

...[/i]


[size=7][u][b]BARF diet not as revolting as it sounds[/b][/u][/size]
[size=6][i]Raw-food diet prompts pet controversy[/i][/size]
[b]by BARBRA TURNBULL
TORONTO (CP)[/b]

A growing number of animal lovers are feeding their pets BARF. That's not as bad as it sounds - BARF is an acronym for Biologically Apporopriate Raw Food or Bones and Raw Food.
Those in favour insist the diet results in fewer chronic health problems, shinier coats, and improvements in teeth, breath, bowel movements, energy and reproduction.
Those opposed call it a dangerous fad, saying eating uncooked meat puts pets at high risk of diseases and E. coli. They cite cases in which animals have become extremely ill or died.
Both sides claim years of anecdotal evidence on their side and support from breeders, researchers and writers, veterinarians and animal nutritionists, but little science has been done to back up either claim.
Typically, today's pets get one of the following diets: mainstream, commercial pet foods; brands considered "superior" or "premium", often sold by vetrinarians as well as pet stores; homemade food, cooked or raw, or purchased raw die.
The raw diet is anywhere from 40 to 80 per cent raw, meaty bones and other protien sources, usually ground together with pureed fruits, vegetables, essential fatty acids and other supplements. Some companies mainufacture the diet, selling it frozen or in link form, like sausages. There's also a powder supplement available that can be added to meat. Those in favour of raw meat say animals require it for good health and can handle the bacteria. These people say the high-heat process used to produce commercial pet food kills nutritens and necessary enzymes.
Further confusing the issue, there are critics of both commercial and raw pet food who say meat cooked lightly and slowly is the best and safest way to go.
A raw diet is notregulated - but neither is the commercial pet food industry, which regulates itself. Pet pwners must be vigilant about the source of the meat and whether supplementary ingredients are properly combined. They must also ensure proper storage and handling.
The cost for the raw diet fully prepared depends on the size of the animal, about $2 to $5 daily for cats and small dogs, but $12 to $15 daily for large dogs.
Vet Chris Elson put his pets on the raw diet after years of problems and saw immediate improvement. "it is a far superior diet than processed food," he says.
"Conventional medicine does fall down in care of chronic disease, cancer or kidney failure. To prevent disease, you;ve got to boost your immune system. Conventionally, it's done with vaccination; holistically, it's done with nutrition. That's the cornerstone of good health."
That said, Elson does not recomend the diet unless he is directly asked. He says "95 to 99 per cent of veterinarians will be against raw food."
Veterinarians get very little nutrition education. At the University of Guelph veterinary college, the only nutrition training students recieve is a series of lectures given by pet food reps, says spokesperson Karen Gallant.
The Canadian Veterinary Medical Association puts it's stamp of approval on foods that pass it's "regorour testing," says spokeswoman Stephanie MacDonald. It would never certify a raw diet, she says because "it won't meet our nutritional standards."
For those who usually open a can or scoop a cip of dry kibble, raw feeding may seem radical, expensive and time-consuming indulgence. But there is a burgeoning community of pet owners who cater to their animals with alternative diets, be it raw or cooked at home.
Ann Martin, who wrote Foods Pets Die For and Protect Your Pet, has prepaired her pets' food fo 13 years, lightly cooking the meat and mixing it with raw vegetables. She is firmly opposed to raw feeding.
"I have information from vets in Canada, the U.S. and U.K. about the problems they've encountered," the Ontairio writer says. "I've heared from literally hundreds of pet owners that have fed this diet to their dogs, which have become extremely ill or died."
Martin says proponents of raw feeding are almost "fanatical" about it, refusing to consider the nutritional inadequacies of hte diet. "Pets all have been dpmesticaled for hundreds of years. Prior to commercial pet food, they have eaten leftovers of human's diet, which, since the inception of fire, has been cooked. All of a sudden, they are saying 'we're feeding our pets a raw diet' It just isn't working."
Try telling that to Tracey Bullinger, Canada's top German Shephered breeder, who began her business in 1982 feeding her dogs a processed diet. After reproduction problems, she started researching raw feeding and has used it exclusively for the last 10 years.
The evidence may be largely anecdotal, but, for Bullinger, it's overwhelming. "More and more breeders are heading towards feeding the natural (diet), because they're the ones that are hands-on and truly see the differnce," she says.

[OldGloryReignsSupreme]

Hi HazelNutMeg. I feed this diet and Bandit does fantastic on it. I steer very clear of commercial pet foods like Purina and such. (No offence to anyone) I like this article though.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yup, the diet has deffently done wonders for my Hazel!! Before it, she had hot spots, dry coarse fur, her eyes were glossy, her teeth were disgusting, her behavior was HORIBLE, she was just one tweaked little dog :wink: After putting her on the diet (and of course a [i][b]LOT[/b][/i] of training has helped with the behavior too), her behavior has improved, her hot spots are completely gone, her coat is rather healthy, her eyes are so bright, her teeth are perly white, she's just all around changed in a wonderful way!! :D
I complain tones when I have to make her food, it's a drag, it's gross, but when my 'rents tell me to put her back on the kibble I have a hairy fit :lol: That would just be MEAN I think to put her back to that, just because I don't want to get my hands a little dirty, or take an hour out of my time. Then of course my 'rents tell me to stop complaining then, but I do it anyway! :lol: :wink:
Of course there are some bad things about the diet, and you must know them all before putting your dog on it. If a dog is rather old, it can get real sick and die even! This is because all the toxins from the years of eating kibble come out of thier body so fast, it can really make them sick. Hazel was even a little sick when first started on the diet, and probably would have been worse if we didn't switch slowly, which is MUCH easier on them. Also diseases and such (E. Coli) [i]are[/i] possible if you don't take care if the meat. Hazel's food doesn't stay in the fridge for longer then 5 days. If it smells or looks in any way that it's getting old, it gets thrown out. You need to prepare the food in a clean area, and clean it up very well after wards as well too of course.

[Kiger]

I would be happier if someone would do an independent study on BARF. Anecdotal evidence just isn't cutting it for me. Kato's diet is only about 1/2 kibble, but he doesn't have any of the problems like hotspots, poor coat quality, or bad breath. The whole idea behind giving my dog something he could swallow and either choke on or cause an impaction gives me the willies - but that could be the ex-vet tech in me.
He does get some raw in a way, but it's the Wysong freeze dried kind.

[Guest Anonymous]

first of all, a dog should [i]never[/i] eat his (raw) food without supervision. Secondly, you can grind up the bones for dogs that won't eat them, they still get the nutrients they need, without having the chew the bones. Also, if the bones are raw, they will not splinter.
And may I ask this; do you let your dog chew on toys or raw hide? Cuz that can surely get lodged in their throad and or stomachs too now can't it?

[luckychaos]

Lucky's had always been pretty healthy on commercial food but he never had ANY energy. He's been on the raw diet for about a month now and the difference is HUGE!! He was never overweight or anything but he just has so much more energy. Before we switched to BARF he would only pick at his food.
Chaos always had bad breath and a really dull coat until we switched.
She never chewed any kibble and would throw it back up a few hourse later. Now she's forced to chew her food.
Ike hasen't been on it for very long but he definately smells a lot better now!

Thanks for the article Hazel! :D I never knew they could get sick from switching over :o I'm glad they didn't or I wouldn't have kept on the diet, not knowing why they were sick.
It took me months and hundreds or articles to convince mom to let me switch the dogs to BARF. Finally I said I'll switch Chaos to it cause she's my dog, and after about a week mom saw the improvements and let me switch both dogs.

[mouseatthebusstop]

I think it is good but I find it easier to open a sack of quality dried food :oops: I do not have the time to prepare it

[Prairie_Gurl]

That's pretty kewl that they printed that in your newspaper Hazel. I'll allert everybody when my newspaper comes out with anything dog-related that doesn't have to do with a dog biting/killing something (hunting, farm dogs, and dogs that bite people). *sigh*

I don't feed my dogs raw food or anything. They get good old Iams. Haven't had any probs with it, and they actually look better since we switched from Purina, and when you cut out the proof-of-purchases you can send them in to get free agility stuff. Nothing against raw food though. Just don't have time or money.... and my folks...

[imported_Debbie]

Prairie_ Gurl,
Have you read the bit about Iams ??? :o
It was under the controversial forum on another dog site. This may be worth looking into !
[url]www.uncaged.co.uk[/url]

[url]www.peta.org./feat/iams/[/url]

Just so you have the info on this company...... :evilbat:

[Guest Anonymous]

:eek2: :chainsaw1: I read the IAMS articals, that is just REVOLTING! I'm really glad I don't buy dog food, because I would never want to support anything like that, IAMS or not! :evilbat:
I'm not saying everyone stop buying dog food, there are SOME good companies out there... I'm sure there is... and starting your dog on the BARF diet without propper knowledge is very bad! You need to mesure the pros AND cons... it was probably 6 months of research if not more before I started Hazel on it!!

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='Kiger']I would be happier if someone would do an independent study on BARF. Anecdotal evidence just isn't cutting it for me. [/quote]



EXACTLY!!! I have been saying the same thing forever! I don't have a problem in the world with thinking that many dogs benefit from BARF, so why do so many BARF enthusiasts have such a problem with the reality that it may not be best for ALL dogs? My dog is one who got sick from BARF. I did my own independent research afterward and found that it wasn't an isolated incident and, contrary to what the BARF enthusiasts would like to say, it isn't always because of something the owner did wrong. Too many enthusiasts just refuse to believe that raw bones can and do splinter, dogs can and do get ill from salmonella and the list continues.

The thing that alarms me most is when someone expresses an interest in BARF, they are instantly directed to join the BARF lists. WRONG! Maybe this sounds radical, but my thinking is that someone should do their own research, both pro and con and then decide which they would like to do. THEN join the BARF lists for advice and support. It just seems kind of like deciding which car I'd like to buy by visiting the Ford website. They will tell me every reason why a Ford is the car I should buy. Do you think you would read something like, "Hey, Fords are great cars except for that tire problem that killed several people..." on their own website? Had I done my own independent research FIRST instead of instantly joining the lists and taking their advice as gospel, I would have found out that dogs can and do get sick.

Anyway, that's just me. I'm ok with the fact that some dogs do fine on BARF. I'm not ok with the fact that mine didn't. I do know, regardless of how many times I'm told otherwise, that cooking at normal household oven
temperatures (this would not mean the temps in an industrial setting like used for rendering and extrusion) does NOT change the nutritional value of food, meat or otherwise, one bit, so it's worth that extra bit of effort to ensure my peace of mind. My dogs still primarily get Wellness, but any meat they get will be cooked. There is also sound evidence that the whole "what dogs eat/ate in the wild" stuff is taken way out of proportion and does not necessarily apply, but people are hardly ever interested once they have their minds made up one way or another.

Sorry if it seems like a rant. I'm not anti-BARF, per se, but just really get frustrated at how many people (in general) refuse to hear any evidence that it is not best for EVERY dog.

[Beautiful Border Collie]

You can substitute the bones with bone meal, if you are unsure about giving your dogs bones. My border collie eats the bones but my poodle is so small i prefer not to give them to him and it takes him so long to eat them anyways.

[Hobbit]

I agree with Kiger and Horsefeathers.

Bones, raw or cooked, DO splinter and CAN and DO sometimes become lodged in the digestive tract.

If someone is going to promote BARF, then they should also state the possible effects that the diet could have on an animal.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm not going to say your wrong. I do agree, BARF ISN'T for every dog, and yes, Bones CAN get lodged... in fact I was wondering a while ago even if my dog IS supervised, what am I 'pose to do if she starts choking?! :o Has anyone ever thought about that stuff? That would be just HORIBLE if my pup started choking and there was nothing I could do, because there wasn't anything I KNEW to do! I think I'm guna do a TONE of research, try to get every angle of BARF... When I first put her on the diet, I got the essencials, like how it works, what she needs, the pros and cons, ect. Now if you'd like, I'll share this with you all? In fact! *DUN DUN DUN* I'll start the research 2nite!! Thanks for gettin me motivated! :lol:
[size=2]Hopefully this won't be like my training thing though, I started it... really I did... but I STILL need to fix it up, and go over it a few more times... and... ugh...[/size]

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay, first of all, I found this real good website... I think some ppls should check it out...

[url]http://www.doggieconnection.com/barf/barf_food2.html[/url]

[Rowie-the-Pooh]

Great Article! :D

About the bones-maybe you should take them out of the food, and just leave the rest for your dog? I think someone here does that but I don't remmember who...I don't trust bones at all! :o

[Guest Anonymous]

it's not a "complete balanced meal" without the bones in it. But I think someone on here... Beautiful Border Collie mentioned you can get bone meal sorta things, that substatute for it. I figured you could get that, but never looked into it. Hazel likes her bones and has never had a problem with it before. She usually gets (RAW) chicken legs and about twice a month gets a large soup bone (she's working on one right now).

[courtnek]

Raw meat should be ok for dogs, providing it's fresh and hasnt been sitting around at room temperature.....

They still have their appendixes; which is now thought to originally have been meant to control the bacteria from raw meat. Ours went dormant when we started cooking food....

A "kill" would be considered "fresh" since the meat was not introduced to the room temperature bacteria's like E-Coli and Salmonella...

[Horsefeathers!]

[quote name='courtnek']Raw meat should be ok for dogs, providing it's fresh and hasnt been sitting around at room temperature..... [color=red] Theoretically, that could be true-ish, but meat goes through so many changes between slaughter and the kitchen. I've worked in chicken, pork and beef processing plants and all the regulations in the world about how it's supposed to be handled don't make me feel better about what I've seen. So it's more than just some poor slob leaving the meat on the counter too long. [/color]

They still have their appendixes; which is now thought to originally have been meant to control the bacteria from raw meat. Ours went dormant when we started cooking food....

A "kill" would be considered "fresh" since the meat was not introduced to the room temperature bacteria's like E-Coli and Salmonella...[/quote]

That's actually kinda sorta another reason I wouldn't BARF again. Unless I was able to raise my own chickens (or cows) and slaughter them, myself, ensuring "proper" handling, I wouldn't dare try it again, regardless of all the soakings and things that are SUPPOSED to make the raw meat safe. Also, most people don't take into account, when they try to use the "what wolves/wild dogs ate" analogy is that they consumed EVERYTHING... not just the bones and meat. Hair, hide and all would be consumed. Most people do not feed their dogs hair and hide on the BARF diet. I found an interesting article that suggests that this may be one reason this type of diet is "successful" in the wild... that the bones are coated by the hide and fur and make them much more likely to pass without puncturing innards. This is just a theory (but then, the whole BARF diet is based on theories, as is any diet), but it sounds as sensible as anything else I've heard. Also, something else no one thinks about when they say that wolves/wild dogs have been eating this way for eons with no problems is that there have been no studies on wolves/wild dogs to know, statistically, how many dogs/wolves may actually have been injured or killed by bones, or bacteria. There's no way to use that comparison to sell it as safe.

I know it seems like I'm ranting away, but I'm not. It's just the "other side of the story." I'm still ok with people who feed their dogs BARF as long as they're ok with the fact that MY dog got sick on it. I didn't leave the meat out at room temperature, so it wasn't MY handling of it that made her sick. I guess I seem kind of defensive because of the verbal beating I took from my fellow BARF enthusiasts on some of these lists when I said my dog was sick. These were my bestest buddies when I was BARFing my dog, but, boy howdy, did I take a beating when I suggested that, gosh, maybe this diet isn't right for EVERY dog.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm sorry HF that you got a "beating" from some people. I agree with about 90% of the things you've said about BARF so far, and I agree it's not for all dogs. If you don't mind me asking, do you know what it was exactlly that made your dog sick?
Also, yeah, I've heard about how the things the chickens are "cleaned" in sometimes don't get changed for a VERY long time :-? So a lot of the chickens going in are just sitting in all the other crap that came off the previous chickens :o That makes ME not want to eat even cooked chicken! Never mind giving it to my dog raw! :o Although I get Hazel's RMB's from a local butchure, and I know that their safe (well not a 100%, being as the choking a such... but bacteria wise, their relitivly very close) and we also have orstrich meat that we give to her sometimes, which is slaughtered by a friend who owns a ostrich farm, so I know it's good. :wink:

[Poofy]

I have fed everything from pedigree dog food to 80.00 per 40 pound dog food, all the way to BARF.

I have honestly found, that a good kibble, will maintain a dog to long lived health. I have found no difference on coat, teeth, health, when compared to raw foods. The 80.00 bag of dog food did the dog no better then the 30.00 bag....I will never feed "bargain" brand again...as that was like feeding chicken feed....I will stick to a good balanced kibble and give treats like carrots, green beans, and melons on the side...

[ShadyLady]

Not judging anyone just wanted to let people know that I lost a dog from eating a raw bone , it didnt splinter but blocked up his bowels :(

[Prairie_Gurl]

Yuck!! Those websites were disgusting!! Thanks for posting those, Debbie!! *sigh* Now what do I do? There's no way my folks are gonna go for shippin in dog food (I swear to God there's no place here that would sell any good stuff). And I would have to order two kinds (senior and adult). Wonder how much that would cost? What brand to go with? Probably couldn't do that BARF because of the bones... don't usually supervise my dogs every time they eat a bowl of food. Hmm....

Sorry guys. I know I'm just kinda rambling here... tryin to sort out my thoughts yea know.

[imported_Debbie]

Prairie_Gurl,
You don't have any Pet stores where you are ? I get my Nutro Natural Choice from a farm supply store, you can get it in bigger bags there and it's cheaper.
North Dakota ought to have Farm supply stores..... don't they ?? :fadein:

[Prairie_Gurl]

Debbie, there are farm supply stores galor here!!! I never thought about getting dog food at a farm supply store... hmm... now that u mention it I think a couple of my doggy-friends get their dog food there. We don't have any good pet shops here though. Just a couple run of the mill crappy kind. At least here, in Fargo they have PetSmart and Petco. I don't know if Bismark does or not... don't think so.