Prairie_Gurl Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 No, your dog seems great in your household. (by the way he/she is adorable). Gooeydog, I bet you spent more time with her than you did anything. And that's a good thing. The thing is, if these retired fighting pits are being alowed in most (most saying that many shelters... but there are a few exceptions) shelters than they will get adopted out to people like what laduenda described: people that think pits are goldens with pointy ears. Then you have a very bad problem. Hmm... just brainstorming here but what if there were a shelter where it specialized in placing retired fighting pits into good homes. And other shelters could send their pits to them--big wammy here-- free of charge (meaning not paying s&h or any weird fees)??? That way maybe, just maybe, pits could be put into better homes and they could live a great life without being euthanized. I don't know, is there any shelters out there that do that??? Or, maybe I'm just in dream land over here. What do u think??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 That's true about the majority of dogs being confiscated not being owned by "professional" dogmen, but at the same time, in a lot of those cases then, the problems the dog has wouldn't even be from being a "fighter", but from the treatment it got from the ignorant owner trying to follow the plan the ever friendly ( :roll: ) media has laid (lain??) out for them. How many dogs that are treated that way actually make it to be successful in the pit? I'm not arguing with you, because I do see your point, but at the same time, I have a problem with classifying any dog that has "issues" or bite marks on it as a "fighting dog" (or "bait"), and any fighting dog as a dog with "issues" (not saying that anyone on this board does it, but there are a lot of shelters, people, etc that do). They can speculate on the history, but unless the dog is an owner drop-off (and even then...), they'll never really know for sure, and the only way to accurately find the great dogs (to put up for adoption) and those that are not good cantidates for adoption (who would either be sent to a rescue for more work or PTS if there wasn't an opening/they would be too hard to "fix") is to temperment test every dog that comes through, and not just skip over those that are said to have a "shady" history. Prairie_ gurl, pit bull rescue presents more problems than say, collie rescue, because pit bulls (and other bully breeds) are often dog aggressive, and such dogs can't be housed together in runs or in some cases, even in the home. They also need individual playtime, exercise, and training, since you can't just take five of them out at once and turn them loose to burn off some energy. Pit bulls are usually pretty high energy dogs, and will lanquish without attention, exercise, and mental stimulation. That alone creates a time and space issue... then there's the problem with screening adopters... there would be a lot a inquiries from people who wanted a pit bull, but were in no way, shape, or form able to care for such a dog. These people would vary from the well meaning, but ignorant, to the people who want a dog to guard their house and make puppies so they can sell them. There are rescues for pit bulls, some are pretty big, and can take on a lot of dogs while still being able to give them the care they deserve. One example is Spindletop APBT & AST refuge ([url]http://www.geocities.com/thepitbullrescue/[/url]), I think they house at least several dozen dogs on-site, and there are others in foster homes. There are a few other big rescues, like BADRAP ([url]http://www.badrap.org/rescue/[/url]), and a lot of smaller ones. R&P, Goo is female, and two of our other 3 dogs are female as well. The main factor in them all getting along is that they're all fairly submissive, and if they start to get on her nerves, she will warn them away, they listen, end of conflict. I'm aware that this could all change in a split second, but we know their personalities well, know what they'll tolerate, and work around all that. Goo stays in my room while no one's home (usually it's only an hour while before I get home from school after my mom leaves for work), and there's a babygate up across my doorway all the time so the other dogs can't go in there and harass her while she's sleeping, etc. [/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 One thing about your dogs goo is that they are all small except for the to APBTs, that is a factor as well as gooey doesnt see them as a threat to her position. They will get far more slack than say a strange female dog of similar or larger size. It probably doesnt hurt that she is as old as she is too, usually once a dog is confident in its spot in the heirarchy that helps with conflicts too. But as far as the all female house goes its amazing that is working for you, You have a house full of well trained animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie_Gurl Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Gooey, I looked at those sites and really liked those rescues. The first one, I looked at the requirments needed to adopt a dog and I was really impressed. It's great that there are those wonderful people out there who care so much about Pits and "bully breeds" to provide a rescue like that which can care and provide the dogs everything they need. If only there was more. *sigh* I do see your point that Pits need special care. They're not like Border Collies, like you said. One question on your post, though: when you said "How many dogs that are treated that way actually make it to be successful in the pit?" which way did you mean that they were "treated". You may have said, and I'm just not picking up on it--you know me-- but I just was curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooeydog Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 They are great rescues, and I wish there were more who were that careful with placing a dog. They actually face a lot of problems similar to those that border collies face... people buying/adopting them because they're cute, or because they heard this or that, then realizing they're too much dog after a couple weeks and dumping them or bringing them back. That's why rescues need to be extra careful in placing "high drive", or "high need" breeds/dogs. By this: "How many dogs that are treated that way actually make it to be successful in the pit?", I just meant how many dogs that are abused, starved, trained on "bait", etc actually become successful pit dogs? Not many. Think about it... if you wanted a dog to be at it's strongest, and fittest, would you starve it? Not likely. If a dog was known for biting people, would the "ref" want to be in the pit with it and possibly have to help seperate it from the other dog? Doubt it. How many dogs that need "practice" on a dog with no teeth or a cat can hold their own another healthy, fit, pit bull of their size? See what I mean? Those kinds of things just aren't rational things to do if you want a fighting dog. R&P, the two pit bulls haven't been allowed to meet off-leash yet, only a couple times on leash so far. Haley is defensive with other dogs at first, then tries to assert herself over them, and this includes leaning over/on them, shoving and bumping into them, etc. Goo will tolerate a lot, but only so much, then she'll warn the other dog off (and if Haley didn't heed her warning, we'd have some big problems). So far, Haley has only wanted to play, and they were even playbowing at each other the last time they met, so things do seem to be going fairly well. We haven't tried Haley with any of the others yet, as they're nowhere near as tolerant of "rude" dogs, and would start something immediately. It definitely helps though in Goo's case that all the dogs she's currently around (not including Haley) seem to accept that they're subordinate to her, and don't constantly push the "issue". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie_Gurl Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Ok. I see what you ment Goo... Is there actually a ref in there with the dogs??? I didn't know that. I've read alot about fighting pits and other breeds too, but I've never read anything about that. Hmm... I think you missed my point though: my point was that to train the fighting pits, MOST (not everyone) people who fight their pits train them to fight by provoking it. Yes, Pits do have a high prey drive (is that what you call it?) but they are not born with the need/want to kill. They are taught that. Also, a method of training a pit to fight is to make them fight other, weaker dogs. It supposely makes them have a "taste for blood". And when they kill/severely hurt the weaker dog they are rewarded. I think the weaker dogs are called "decoys" or something of that sort. I think that there are two different kinds of dog fighters: the kind that do it for "fun" and to make a couple quick bucks (these are usually teenagers or older folks that are--in my opinion-- mentally retarded). It usually starts as a bet like "my dog's stronger than yours" or somethin like that, then they do it every friday night or so. It ain't "professional" though. Then there are the other kind of dog fighters. The "professionals" who do fight dogs as much as they wheel and deel drugs. It's a form of a paycheck to them and live off of the money that they make from the bets. They are the ones that train their dogs very seriously. I think you are talking about the "professionals" and I was talking about the "amatures". That's where we got confussed. *smile* *** by the way, I do not know if all of my info is entirely correct, but I am very very sure that it is. Please correct me if I am wrong about something. Ok??? *** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 In response to Hmmmmm.... I am talking about the average, walk-in-a-shelter-I-want-a-dog person..... You understand the potential dangers of your dog, and are responsible enough to keep it away from other animals if you know it is aggressive towards them. The majority of people wanting a dog havnet even bothered to check out the breed to see if it would work with their lifestyle. And alot of shelters dont have the means or money to do anything about that. So when I said "they probably wouldnt make good pets" that's exactly what I meant. Pets for people who are clueless who adopt an animal who has been fought, are not good pets. It's NOT the animals fault, but there is nothing requiring the potential owner to know what they are getting into. I am being realistic about this. I have nothing against APBT's and I feel bad that they are treated the way they are. But they are NOT the dog for the average, clueless pet owner. I still insist that not all of them are beyond adoption...although their nature is to be aggressive towards other animals, the one in the yard next door shows me that they can get along with other animals just fine if given the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Prairire_Gurl you are speaking about the kinds of fights that are on TV and the news. that is not dog fighting. You do not use weaker dogs to train. The dogs are not teased or amped up to entice fighting. These dogs are born with the want and desire to fight and kill. Its natural for a pit bull fighting is fun and its own reward. That is why these dogs are so hard to raise if you dont know what you are getting into. It goes beyond prey drive, its like another world for them. when a pit bull is turned on there is very little that can stop them that is why people have to pry them apart and have that myth of lock-jaw. They are totally unaware of any pain in this state, now im not going to say they dont feel anything but i will say that you wouldnt know that they did. And that goes for any dog not special fighting lines, a pit bull will fight to the point that it now only kills the other dog but will often times die itself. People do not understand that a pit bull isnt just another dog, thats why there are people that suggest a special class and there are age bans in certain cities as to who can own one. As far as people who fight dogs being rich the wanna-be doggers do get very rich beause they breed to anything and they fight anything to anything if the moneys right. the professionals are entirely differrent. They a re very selective about the bloodlines and the people that they breed with. if a dog quit in the ring or if a dog in hhis pedigree wuit in the ring they dont use it. they will only stud to selected and approvced females and they will only breed certain dogs, Hell i wish more breeders were that selective with thier stock. As for the fighting they fight dogs of similar size and weight because then they are on even ground what better way to test the gameness of the dog. Sometimes(rarely) if a dog is showiung the potential he can challenge a champion, but that has nothing to do with the money, its all in the game. I know i probably sound like an advocate of fighting, I AM NOT OF COURSE. But it hits me wrong when people make assumptions based on the news so i do what i can to debunk ANY lies they are spreading. and coutnek your right to a pooint you cant put awell bred APBT in the same calss as the street "pitbull". A well bred pit will not bite a person, seriously its downright impossible to get bitten by an APBT unless you are harming its family. They are so friendly they are routinely stolen from thier yard and most breeders have to get dogs of another breed to protect them. but at that magic age anywhere from 1-3 years old they can do a complete 180 and dogs that they have spent thier entire lives with will be like thier worst enemies, or they will just barely tolerate them. Which is why you never, ever trust an APBT not to fight. Some go thier entire lives without so much as an incident, other are already showing sign of aggression at a few months old, sometimes weeks of age. It is all in the breeding, the TRAINING, and the dogs temperment and personality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtnek Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Hmmmm. one more note. Both of my pups are Lab Mixes - "good with children" "Gentle" "the perfect family dog".... would I let Freebee. my black Lab Mix, encounter a child without supervision? ABSOLUTELY NOT.... Yes, she is part Lab, yes, she is generally very friendly. Would a child tick her off enough to be aggressive? Yes, I believe so.... You have to take the dogs at an individual level....They are not all Breed Specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie_Gurl Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Thanks for correcting me RnP. I didn't word that very well at all... but my main point was that Goo and I are talking about two different "kinds" of trainers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk_blue Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 I think it's just really sad that bad breeding and bad owners can harm the reputations of great dogs- like the APBT and other bull breeds, Dobermann, GSD, Rottweiler... obviously we can see it most with the APBT but even very stereotypically happy go lucky dogs like Dals, Labs and Goldens will be nippy and a nightmare to own if poorly bred and given to the wrong types of owners. :evil: Australian Cattle Dogs are not recommended for first time owners nor owners with small children, because of their dominant personalities, high energy, and tendency to herd and nip. Though I would not trust a child under, say, 7?? with [i]any[/i] dog to be alone together, I know BK, and while he has a typical ACD personality the one thing he has in spades is tolerance. With small dogs and with children. I have seen him obey a 4 year old's commands- the funniest thing I'd seen for a long time was this tiny kid saying "sit down dog!!" and BK just [i]sitting[/i] for her- I was impressed. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 I will be the first to agree APBTs are not for everyone, especially someone with no experience with dogs. But then is any breed right for them?? I am too lazy to go look through all the posts to find it but someone made a statement that dogmen feed gunpowder and use cats, smaller dogs, and other breeds to "train" a bulldog to fight. All untrue. The gunpowder thing is not done by anyone who has gamebred APBTs and wants them to stay that way. Using a cat isnt going to show your dog anything but that he can kill cats. Putting a large pit on a small pit is not done either. If you have the smaller dog it will ruin the dog, if you have the larger there is a good chance of him learning bad, unwanted habits. AND putting an APBT on a breed other than an APBT is CRUEL and is not done by those who love the breed. I know some dogmen who have become millionairs because of their dogs but this is not the normal. There is not as much money as most people think. You have to remember the cost of feeding, usually, anywhere from 10-60 dogs and sometimes more. And they dont get the everyday dry dogfood. They are fed VERY well.You have to remember the cost of putting a dog through a 4-6 week keep, which is not cheap. After all those costs you rarely make much from the actual match. You may get a forfiet and some bets but that will go right back into the dogs. There are three people in the pit with the dogs. The ref and the handlers for each dog. Those BS scenes they show in movies where they have two dogs facing off and they cut the collars is BS. Its not really done that way. We follow specific rules and if they are broken, you lose. Regardless of how well your dog is doing. Prarie_Gurl said most people train their pits to fight by provoking them... NOT TRUE. These dogs do not need to be provoked, AT ALL. And they are not taught to kill. That IS in their blood (to kill another dog). They need no training or provacation(?) for this. Not fighting them once does not mean they wont fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Very true but the worst part is how long it takes to rectify the damage thats done. it only takes a few dogs and some bad owners to start it and over the course of we'll say 15 years. and the entire image of the breed is scarred (actually its limp and dying on a respirator). BUt everyone who has never seen a well bred APBT is now coninced that they are monsters. People ask about our dog and we are always happy to pull out the photos, "oh he so cute, what kind is he" "*Proudly* He is an AMERICAN Pit Bull Terrier" *that funny look*"Oh. well you better watch him with the baby, hes going to get mean." It is so hard to maintain composure when someone insults your dog, but i do very well because they are going to be looking at me and anything i do will now influence them on the owners and the bree itself. So i go into the books that i have read the amount of research that was done. In all honesty i had the money and means to get a dog of any breed form any where and i CHOSE to get the APBT. I had him shipped in because i wanted a good breeder, i bet i talked to close to 30 different kennels that great looking dogs, but the lines were weak or the dogs werent socialized to people and kids. Or the answers to the questions i asked seemed a little on the shadey side. I can say and honestly mean that APBTs are the best all around dog that i can find. They are perfect for me and my lifestyle. I then of course let them know that they are not like other dogs that there are extras that go along with owning one. The dog aggression and the high energy, the overwhelming friendlyness and the threat of your dog being stolen, Im still not sure if this is a pro or a con. or a pro with a con. the point being that its going to be years and decades befor ethe breed can rebound from what was and still is being done to it. the laws are flimsey and in most cases if someone is found to be fighting dogs they get a small fine and the have to either give thier dogs to the animals shelters or THEY HAVE TO SELL THE DOGS. Now im not a cop or a rocket scientist but who do oyu think they are going to sell the dogs to: A. a good well selected family. B. people that knows them and the dogs reputation in the ring. not hard to see the answer there and besides who will pay more a for a dog with a winning past? someone whos not going to fight him, I think not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Go to [url]http://www.pitdogs.org[/url] and look up an old post by Olivia p. I think it is called common questions and you will get a lot of good Real answers on "the game". Or just ask your own if you don't insult the people they will respond nicely even to humane people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Well, as I recall, the forum was started on PETA but has turned into dog fighting. Well, I am against any type of dog fighting. I'm also against people who agree with the old and ILLEGAL bloodsport. Pitdogs.org is my nemisis site on the internet. Can't stand it at all but we'd better not start a war with them. To my understanding, they are good at fighting. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 :evil: I'm angry and confused-I cannot believe what I'm hearing. I am a PETA member and I've always considered them to be good people. But after reading that (fvery complete with citations and extensive info), I am just amazed. How DARE Ingrid say such horrible things! I know for a fact that dogs don't just "kill." There is always a reason and NO dog is born viscious! Yes, many breeds are born more aggressive than others, but if treated with love and discipline, they're not going to hurt anyone (unless threatened or protecting those they love-but humans are the same way). I have a Rottie myself and he is the most loving, loyal dog. And how could they kill all those innocent animals with absolutely NO reason whatsoever? My money and volunteerism will no longer go to PETA until I can get to the bottom of this. -Jessica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 I have never liked PETA. My sister takes her pits down to the Norfolk PETA and walks them there. A local radio station fishes there as well. The place I work at gathered up 14 pounds of meat and threw it at the building. I guess PETA isn't getting good ratings here either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogwoman Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 I have worked through the thread and I have the following to say; I run a bull breed sanctuary with s strict non kill policy. A lot of the dogs I take in come from a pit backround. And YES, they can be re-socialized and YES, I do home them as pets afterwards. I have been doing so for the past 6 years and NOT ONE was returned to me, so I must be doing something right. Re-conditioning of an ex-pit dog is not as hard as one might imagine and I keep saying that other dogs (non bull breeds) are dog aggressive without being trained to do so. The PETA article is unfounded and not well researched, or better not at all researched. It seems that is written to get the ordinary Joe Public on their side, like: Oh look, PETA is not as militant as we thought, they hate those monsters as well. Makes me sick. Sarah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 I live in Las Vegas and own an American Staffordshire (or rather he owns me). The animal shelters are 70% full of 'Bully Breeds' here and renting a place to live is harder than lifting the Titanic. I have had 2 AmStaffs and just had to put one down after 14 wonderful years. My 7yr old is Joker and also a RESCUE. The 18th st gang in South Central Los Angeles had him until one boys' aunt called me and told me about a 3 mo old pup she was worried about. I risked life and limb getting that pup out of there but because of the love I have given him (regardless of his beginnings), I would trust a child to take a raw steak away from him. I HATE the way these dogs are ALL pitbulls to the uneducated world. When people say "you never know with these dogs", I reply, "I KNOW, I've trained him!" We all need to get the word out to spay and neuter and rescue the ones out there. When people (mostly men) come to me and ask if I would breed my "pitbull" with thier "pitbull", I'm disgusted by the fact that they dont even know the breed and dont even realize my dog has no Balls! Trust me, I give them some words that make thier tail tuck between thier legs and maybe (hopefully) reconsider the idea of breeding out of thier apartment in hopes of financial gain. These people dont care where these pups end up and we all need to speak up for these loyal friends. For a real tear-jerker, look online for "SENATOR VESTS'- TRIBUTE TO A DOG" a true story and one I've had on my wall for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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