wildbunch Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Very well said Watchdog. I would hate to see such a lovely breed banned from the U.S. because of people who think that a breed should remain the same as it once was. If that was the case we wouldn't have many of the wonderful breeds we have today. If you feel threatened, BUY AN ALARM. If your dog truly loves you he/she will protect you as you are his pack. I wish that ALL breeders had to have a license to breed and that checks were performed on all kennels. But that is a dream and will most likely never happen. So please don't had yourself to the list of irresponsible breeders. Unless you plan to improve upon a breed for the world today, don't breed! Our world is changing, people need to accept this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 But keep to the standard!! That is an important part of breeding as well you cant just go and increase or decrease the aggression of a breed and still be conforming to the standard. The average "pitbull" Id a confused bunch of hyped up agression and bad training. These are the dogs that case the BSL and the stigma. The WELL_BRED Bullys AmStaffs, APBTs, Bull Terriers, and others are not overly agressive to people but Do still harbor dog aggressions. Its proper traininga nd socialization that control these tendencies, if you breed it out the dog wouldnt be an APBT. That is why only RESPONSIBLE people should be allowed to own a dog of his caliber. :black: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Don't breed standards change overtime, GSDs for example? They were squarish, turned into a ramp, moving back towards squarish again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Standards do change at times, but generally it is to be more specific as to the dogs original form. Not to the current form. The dogs should be bred to the standard not the standard shanged to the dogs. I honestly am not real good with GSDs, but hopefully Black GSD reads this and chimes in with the right answer. But generally the standard is the blueprint, so when a change is made it is because there is some aspect of the dog that is being over-looked or over accentuated and then the standard must be specified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Watchdog: How come you have to go and make things up that are not true? Have you ever seen a whole dogmans yard full of dogs on chains? The urine does not build up especially if the area is cleaned at least daily as I do here. No their feet are just fine. If they have a problem then they go to the vets.Yes they can go to the vet regardless of their being other dogs there or not have you ever heard of a muzzle! I do have muzzles you know. Quit making things up my dogs are not being neglected or abused if you do not like them being kept on chains that is your opinion. I excersize them ahell of a lot more than Colby or Pat patricks does and they are famouse and they both have way more dogs than I do. I can garuntee you that they don't take all of their dogs for walks every day. So no I don't feel bad about myself. I do compete in some events and I will compete more in the future. I was going to take my dogs of the chains and put them in runs but I see you people are just never happy so I am not going to. I can live with the fact that the breed will someday be banned because it is not my fault it is PETAS fault and I will still own the breed F*ck the laws on breed bans . They don't work. Also I do not have agressive dogs my dogs are dog agressive not human agressive get it through your thick skulls that there is a difference. Also Watchdog why do you like english bulldogs they are horribly sick animals,They can barely walk the can barely breath through their flattend face. The have difficulty breeding naturally and most have to have a c-section to have puppies They have so many problems I could go on and on so don't tell me my dogs have a bad life when those things have a horrible life just being themselves. I will be breeding this bred for my entire life regardless of whether it is outlawed or not and whether you like it or not. I am very different from you people I do not think that Bull baiting,cockfighting,Bear baiting,Hunting wild boar are cruel things you guys do but [b]most [/b]of you still eat chicken and wear leather products so you must not think slaughterhouses are cruel. I am not the idiot you guys are. I now really know what Richard Stratton was reffering to when he said Humaniacs which is what some of you are. You guys want all dogs to be fifi and fufu and you have no respect for canine gladiators as Carl semencic reffers to them as. All you want is the shell of a breed that looks and walks like that breed but inside it is really a lab or a golden retriever.I don't like Bull terriers(overgrown rats) Amstaffs(Pitbull wannabees) or pit/staff crosses that is why I do not have them. You are right our world is changing Armageddon is coming and so is Satan and his human warriors we must be prepared lol. I have read up on a lot of breeds probably more than you have. You guest are a fool actualy an idotic fool if you think dogagression and human agression are one in the same they are not dogs can be dominate/agressive with other anials yet friendly/submissive with their owners and other human beings. My dogs are not mean and nasty and they are not fifi or fido or spot either. Yes if my dog gets loose it will be killed regardless of if it does anything wrong or not it is an Apbt that is why they are kept very secure on chains that even your car could not break get a life and don't assume my dogs will get out because they will not.!!!!!!!!! I do exercise and socialize my dogs.Once they turn on I can no longer allow them with other animals but that does not mean that they are not socialized with people. my dogs are not completely untrained they know what no means ,they don't jump on people they are housebroken and they know they are not allowed on furniture they also are crate trained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 I fully agree that you must adhere to the standard of the breed. Sometimes people pick out a small area of the standard and take it out of context. In my breed, the Bulldog, people think it is a head breed so must be bred with a huge head. The standard says the body is to be short. The latest craze is to get the body so short it impinges movement. The GSD is an example of over reacting to the standard by over angulating the dog. Regardless of what is winning in the ring you should breed for a balanced dog that meets the standard. I have not read the standard for the APBT but I have trained with some very fine AmStaff breeders. The AmStaff's were lovely, social, friendly dogs.I would hate for these animals to be destroyed because ignorant people breed for a vicious temperament. There is a huge difference in aggressive tendencies that are controlled and vicious untrained time bombs. In Iowa and Illinois shelters the staff is advised, and in some cases, ordered, to destroy all Pit "type" dogs. Innocent animals are dying because of people like Luenda. No chance for adoption. No chance for rescue. All pay for the ignorance of the few. If this doesn't get under control soon the breed will be extinct in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 The standard is that the dogs ARE dog-ggressive but not to an uncontrollable degree. If you cant take your dogs around other dogs ON LEAD and still maintain control there is a problem. The dogs may want to attack another dog but if you are doing your job as an owner/breeder the dog can be checked and will not go yanking and gorwling like crazy. THat is the point, your not being critisized so much that your dogs are dog-agressive its more the fact that your so OKAY WITH IT!!! You said in black and white you had no interest in training your dogs. That amazes me, the fact that you know so well what these dogs are capable of et do nothing to prohibit or train against it. one question.... WHY? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 ahhh... The mentality of your post proves my point. You are a fool. I have seen many dogmen's yards. Most of the "dogmen" are just like you, dumb as rocks, scurve of the earth. I have watched the dogs suffer on their log chains, in the mud. I don't know who you are trying to kid, but no matter how trod down dirt is, it becomes muddy and urine soaked with dogs living in it. I have been a State Licensed Humane Investigator for many years. It turns my stomach to read your drivel. I only wish I knew where you were located as I would send an investigator over to shut you down. I pity your dogs. I hope someone puts you out of business real soon. Your stupidity is appalling. Why don't you get a job and quit living off the poor creatures you have tied on chains? Give us a break and move on to a list for the mentally impaired. They may believe your crap, I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Hello All, My name is Daniel, I currently live in Tucson, Az. I own three APBT's, unregistered. Some people would consider them cur's or results of byb's. All three are from the same parents, and their owner is a good friend of mine. He doesn't run a puppy mill, and he's not trying to make a fortune either. Do please don't batter me with hate mail :roll: . Their mother is registered and is of oldtown red blood. As for the father, I'm honestly not to shure, I only know that he does have Colby blood in him. I was totally IMPRESSED with both of their temperments. Just though I would give a little background! :D. These two were the first apbt's I've ever been around to be honest. Very happy, friendly, dogs. Petey the male naturaly is very protective, but is very well trained. Now more about my family, I'm 24 and married to my wife Erin. We own our own home which is on 2 acres, just barely outside of Tucson. I'm also proud to say we did alot of reading and talking with current owners of apbt's before we even acquired our first. Twinkie our oldest APBT us just approaching 2 years of age. She's fawn with a white chest. Twinkie had a rough start in life, when she was 3-4 months of age she contrated the F-strand of Parvo. Yes she was fully vaccinated, so we're honestly not to shure how she got it. She pulled through and is my pride and joy. She has the best temperment, personality, and is a total goof. Next we have Zoey and Pepper, both dark brindle females from the same litter. They are just now 7 months. They almost look like identical twins, but if you look closely you can see the differences in their white marks on their faces. We also have a german shepherd/rottie mix female named Angel that we got from the humane society a few years ago. All of my dogs are Indoor dogs, with a fenced in backyard for their potty breaks. All 4 of them get along awesome, and I've never had any issues with dog aggression yet. Twinkie I know FOR shure will never give me any issues. She's totally passive, when she gets aggressed she just rolls over! Zoey is kinda shy, but acts similar to Twinkie right now. Pepper I know we will have to be very strict with, or at least keep a good eye on her. She's very vocal and doesn't care for strange dogs too much. All of our dogs get socialized often and go for long walks. I'm now exactly shure how pure my 3 girls are, but by browsing the web and comparing photo's to 'pure' registered dogs I don't see many differences. I have noted that some of these pups I've seen for sale look like Hercules. My three weren't so large, but they've grown to be of rather good size. Twinkie at 2 years of age is 72 pounds! To be honest I don't care. I love them all and we work with them on a constant basis. I have so much to say, I have alot of love for our breed. I'm hurt by the Humane Society, and Animal Controls policy with 'Pitbulls' and pit-mixes. If they're over 4months of age and not claimed by their original owners in 1 week they are put to sleep. I go to the Animal Control building often, it's the biggest shelter here in Tucson. It's very sad to see all of the friendly apbt's and misc other breeds in there. It's rare to find one that they're not planning on putting to sleep though. OKay, sorry people, just babbling. Just disturbed with what i've read on this forum today. One final not though for everyone. How are breeders trying to preserve APBT's? Have you seen their prices? I understand they do the house checks, vet references, and etc. I dunno. lol Time for me to shaddup. I'll check back later just incase someone wants to babble with me :lol: Later people, Daniel P.S. I am trying to find a pure male puppy that my wife and I can provide a good home for. We're not trying to start a puppy mill either, All three(4) of our females are spayed. The puppy part is a must, so that he can be raised with our girls. So if you have a litter, and need a home for one last male, feel free to email me or IM me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
behle Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 [b]laduenda[/b] writes:[quote]I will be breeding this bred for my entire life regardless of whether it is outlawed or not and whether you like it or not. I am very different from you people I do not think that Bull baiting,cockfighting,Bear baiting,Hunting wild boar are cruel things AND You are right our world is changing Armageddon is coming and so is Satan and his human warriors we must be prepared lol.[/quote] I have been watching this discussion for several days. No one will ever be able to change the mindset of the author of these two quotes. [b]Why keep trying?[/b] I will happily keep my "sissy" saint and rottie in my home as beloved pets; that is what makes me happy and gives them joy and contentment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 behle, love the picture :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
behle Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Thanks Raider1911! That's my spoiled saint, Ben! It's winter here in Michigan. He's our snow dog. Loves to scoop up great mouthfuls when he gets out of the house with us! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Well Thank you Sasha, I'm working on getting a website going. Along with lots of pics of the family. Scanner is giving me issues and i can't afford a digital camera! So needless to say I'm having fun. Twinkie was my first apbt, and she's changes my life. Honestly, I remeber talking to people before i got her. I was nervous from all of the rumors and myths I've heard. It's been 2 lovely years, naturally I had to give two more a good safe home. Playing with the scanner now, I have alot of pics to scan! :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Some things about breed standards DO change or are emphasized or deemphasized over time. So it is not sacriligous to make needed changes to a breed. If there was a breed and it was suddenly discovered that a paticular trait compromised health or life - similar to white dobes or slopey GSD hips or csection dependent dogs or something then the breed standard would change to improve the health. And responsible breeders would make the changes to help their breed. If someon decided today to develop a breed thats purpose and genetic inclination was to eat the apricot coloured poodles everyone would be outraged and try to stop someone from making this mistake as it would be dangerous and the dogs would end up euthanized. So why are we so determined to preserve the result of the mistaken and inhumane decision made years ago when someone thought it would be great to have dogs rip each other apart for [i]sport[/i]. I just do not think we would be doing apbts any disservice by, at the very least, breeding a less dog aggresive dog. It is our responsibility to do the best we can by our dogs, and pardon me, standards be d*mned, if those standards are contributing to the abandonment and euthanization and maiming of our pets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Oooops, that was me. I thought I logged in, guess not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefeathers! Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 [quote name='Anonymous'] I just do not think we would be doing apbts any disservice by, at the very least, breeding a less dog aggresive dog. It is our responsibility to do the best we can by our dogs, and pardon me, standards be d*mned, if those standards are contributing to the abandonment and euthanization and maiming of our pets.[/quote] This has to be the most sensible statement I have read on this subject! I get sooooo frickin' sick of hearing (on other boards, also) about how these "responsible" breeders are only trying to preserve the breed in its natural and originally intended state. I have spent I don't know how much time pondering how this is a good thing. I thought maybe I was just missing something. I, too, fail to see the purpose of maintaining and perpetuating dog aggression in a breed just because someone long ago thought it was a good idea. To me, it is a lame argument to say that dog aggression needs to be preserved for the sake of preserving the breed. I don't see many of the breeds that were originally bred for it taking down wolves, bears, or lions and these breeds are still existent. Breed standards indeed can and DO change when necessary. That "gameness" is NOT the only thing that makes a Pit Bull an endearing pet and anyone who thinks this is the only quality they have that makes them fit to exist is someone who would have to advocate fighting them to prove they are up to their breed standard. Can't have it both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 [img]http://home.att.net/~raider1911/twinkie.jpg[/img] This is a picture of Twinkie, guessing a little over a year old. she was still developing her head. [img]http://home.att.net/~raider1911/twinkie1.jpg[/img] And this would be 6-7 months old! oh so cute huh? :P [img]http://home.att.net/~raider1911/twinkieandroxie.jpg[/img] This picture was taken when a friend of Twinkie's name Roxie was over to visit! Nice to meet everyone, I'll post some more pics later. I don't have anything real recent though.. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Great pictures and lovely dogs. Thanks for sharing the brighter side of the Pitbull's life. All should live like this in my opinion. My friend has 3 pitbulls that all live in the house and get along fine. They are kenneled separately (indoors) when he isn't home, for safety. They were littermates he rescued and kept. All have been to Obedience classes, go to the park daily for a run and are very social. His wife is expecting their first child. They are preparing the dogs by playing tapes of babies crying, inviting friends with children over to visit, etc. They bought a book about socializing your dog before the baby invades their territory. I really respect their dedication. If every Pitbull owner was this responsible the breed wouldn't be in trouble today. Welcome to the board. Thanks for sharing the pictures. WD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 . If every Pitbull owner was this responsible the breed wouldn't be in trouble today. I think Watchdog that really does say it all :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest roo Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 [color=red]Also Watchdog why do you like english bulldogs they are horribly sick animals,They can barely walk the can barely breath through their flattend face. The have difficulty breeding naturally and most have to have a c-section to have puppies They have so many problems I could go on and on so don't tell me my dogs have a bad life when those things have a horrible life just being themselves.[/color] Ok I know this was directed at WD here, but feel i have to reply on it :lol: Firstly I would like to say how many English bulldogs do you know? One of the reasons that the breed has pushed back faces is when baiting they had to be able to get a grip, the wrinkle or furrows are there for a curtain reason, it is to take the blood of the baited animal away from the eyes and nose. Yes there are some bulldogs who are bad breathers, these again are due to irresponsible breeding. It is the same with french bulldogs, there are some bad breathers in the breed too. Were you aware that some bulldogs do agility? That seems amazing i suppose to you when you think they cannot walk or breath. The bulldogs with, or any breed with major problems (and there are many breeds out there with different problems) can still have a good life with sensible, responsible owners. It is the bad breeders, the ignorant breeders, the uncaring breeder, the BYB, the millers and farmers who breed these problems. How many bulldogs have you seen leaping around like lunatics, jumping up and down. i am sure i can answer that for you NONE. Why? because you have chosen to pick on a breed that you have no knowledge of. (bit like APBT's really) :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbunch Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Thank you HF and DogPaddle. That is what I've been trying to say all along. WHY do we need dog aggresive dogs? What purpose do they serve? If we eliminate the "game" "dog aggression" won't we be assisting with the effort to end pit dog fights. Am I completely off base here or am I just completely idiotic to the world of bully type breeds. I don't get it. Why do we need the dog aggression? It serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE. Any animal with a predisposition for aggression can ultimately end up hurting itself or others! Train and socialize your animals people. Trust me its not so bad, you develop a bond with your dog while training. Positive training shows the dog that when it obeys it is rewarded with affection, praise (and food). If your dog shows aggression take it to a trainer if you can, take it to supervised doggy daycare, parks, have friends over. Anything to show your dog that the behaviour is unacceptable. I admire and applaud those out there with aggressive dogs who are doing something, anything to improve the situation. This is my opinion on the situation. You don't have to agree. You will not change my opinion by trying to convince me that you're doing the world a favor by preserving this specific trait. I can see that Laduenda does not want to listen to reason so I am personally finished with the subject. I see no light at the end of the tunnel so to speak. By the way, sorry for the rude intro Raider. Welcome to our humble abode. We really are a good group of people who care/love our dogs and want nothing but the best for all canines. We support eachother in rough times and try to assist those in genuine need of guidance. I can't wait to see pictures of all of your babies. Glad to have you with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiger Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 [quote name='laduenda'] You are right our world is changing Armageddon is coming and so is Satan and his human warriors we must be prepared lol.[/quote] I think her meds expired. :lol: And welcome Raider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 I understand the mindset and your way of thinking as far breeding out aggression goes but I still am against it. True it would make pit fighting less attractive but then they will just move on to the next breed like they are doing now with corsos, akitas, and presas. If this holds tru soon we will have breed after breed that is a shadow of its former self. The purpose of getting a dog shouldnt be that it is mean or vicious, with some badly bred "pitbulls" that is a side effect. Dog-dog agression is controllable its not like its something that is horribly running rampant and dealdy to the dog the owners need to own up to being just that owners, not feeders who just tie the dog up and keep it alive, they have to help them thrive. Bully breeds in general all harbor a bit of dog agression, there are lots of people who own them responsibly and never have a problem. So why change the standard and mentality of the breed when all it actually needs is guidence training and direction, to make it easier for people like we are dealing with today to keep tons of them and breed them like crazy? Good idea but Im against it.... Sorry :black: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 First of all I am not doing anything illegal. I am not pumping out puppies and the only bitch on my property that has puppies is the rescue and they are inside in my room where it is warm and dry and clean they are all fed a high quality puppy food with no by-products,ground yellow corn or soy and yes meat is the first ingredient. The bitch is given extra vitamines(Nutrical) and she is not skinny at all actually she is kind of fat. I don't have any other bitches in whelp or pregnant or that have even had puppies at this time. The bitch I bred is kept with her co-owner and she is his only dog. None of my dogs are skinny their ribs are not showing and they are not overwight either. Their pad are fine no cuts etc. They in the summer time do get dipped for fleas/ticks so they do not have any at all.They also get treated with fly reppelent . The yard area is very clean and dry and no there is no buildup of urine or feces remember I keep it clean. Their water is clean I change it daily and it is secured to the dog house with wire. They all I repeat all have a doghouse . They all have metal food dishes which I also clean daily. They are excercised daily and they are not mean at all they would not bite the Animal control they would just want to play. I feed them all a high quality food and they are de-worme once a month with Ivomec which also prevents heartworm. They are not suffering from any illnesses or they would be immediately taken to the vet.There are no dead or dying dogs here that would be sick!and disgusting!!. The garbage is in the garbage can and they come every Saturday no buildup of that either.I also clean all my crates after every use and that means I scrub them and bleach them. Shut me down? I am not running a buisness here and I am not even producing any puppies at all at this time. All my dogs are licensed and vaccinated not only against Rabies but also against Parvovirus,Leptospirosis,Adenovirus 1 and 2,Distemper,Corona virus,Measels,Hepatitus and of course Bordatella. I am doing nothing wrong and there are absolutely no laws on chaining in my area I called they told me as long as it is not running loose it is fine.The neighbors are not upset as I live in the middle of the woods and the few neighbors I have never complain about my animals. They do not bark excessively,they are never loose,they don't smell and are kept clean,They don't threaten people and they are not a nuisance. Just because you may not like how I do things does not mean I am doing anything illegal and why seize my dogs all you are going to do with them is kill them THAT is cruel!! Anyways I was actually invited to become an Adoption counselor at my local Humane society and I am working on getting a job at animal control . Don't think that the current animal control officers are going to be mad at me as I caught the head guy smoking Marijuana in the office when I went to license my dog .I did not turn him in it is not my buisness as he is not hurting anyone but himself. Also you actually believ those myths that people have created s to why the English bulldog is so horribly disfigured LOL. If the bulldogs would keep going back even after being gored by the bulls horns or kicked or stepped on by the bull do you think a little blood in their eyes is going to hold them back? I think not. Also how could they get a good grip with such a short muzzle?Anyone who does catchwork with Apbt's or Am.bulldogs knows that the muzzle needs to be a little bit longer than that to do the job.Another thing is they are to short and can barely run or jump I am sure the Bull would have been a lot faster than they are.They could never do any strenouse exercise and anyone who has them knows that they cannot be kept in very hot climates because they are at an extreme risk of a heart attack. David Leavitte's olde bulldogs would be a little more realistic but I know they are just a blend of some of the current Bull breeds.Get real those little horrible dogs were never bulldogs tey may be descended from them but they are a very far cry from the original bulldog of the old. Also if you didn't know Apbt's were used to catch bulls and they are not undershot,nor do they have a pushed in face with tons of wrinkles and no the blood in their eyes did not hinder them at all. Also let me see one of those English bulldogs catch a bull today I bet they could not could they? But you know what an Apbt could and would do it if it were legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avaloniaboerboele Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 People smoking dope have a very steadfast, secure, grown-up life..... :o, especially looking after living creatures.... :o :o :o :o :o :o yeah sure :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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