Guest roo Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 What in everyones opinion is a puppy miller or farmer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggrolyn1223 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 people that dont care about life..live only for money..disturbed ppl.. :x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Ditto to what K said. And then some.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Oh the poo poos. Yes. Poo poo breeders. Good name for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 In my opinion, the difference between Commercial breeders and milllers are the conditions the dogs are kept in. Millers are the ones that keep thier dogs in chicken coops and full of feces and worms etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiger Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Come on Gigi - you and I were going to breed some Shiboodles, remember??! (Wow, that name is almost good enough to be trendy. :o ) :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 [quote name='Kiger']Come on Gigi - you and I were going to breed some Shiboodles, remember??! (Wow, that name is almost good enough to be trendy. :o ) :lol: :lol:[/quote] I can't. Mine are both fixed. But Kato can be our first father! Kiger, Kato should be ready to mate soon, right? Anyone got a female poodle that will be in heat soon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiger Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Oh yeah, he's almost 6 months old - definitely mature enough. Doesn't Horsefeathers have a Poodle? Only problem is he seems to have a thing for the neighbor's neutered male Shiba. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 [quote name='Kiger']Oh yeah, he's almost 6 months old - definitely mature enough. Doesn't Horsefeathers have a Poodle? Only problem is he seems to have a thing for the neighbor's neutered male Shiba. :lol:[/quote] Yes, but Perry is a boy..... Wait. That's her standard. I'm not sure about her Toy...or is it a mini? I'm sure he/she is fixed though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiger Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Teacup Shiboodles would be all the rage! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Or a standard Shiboodle. Everyone loves the fact that Kenzo is SO big.....Maybe I shouldn't have altered him and bred up in size for a new Shiba size! :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I think a puppy miller is someone who breeds dogs for the purpose of making money. Most reputable breeders do well to break even. So if your making money off of it we all know who pays the difference - the dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiger Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 A lot of people have asked me if they come any smaller - like mini size. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the millers get hold of them and make it happen. I'm afraid they are going to get more and more popular. I must have had 18 people say they wanted Kato last time I was in Petsmart - I said NO YOU DON'T! Someone asked if he was a little wolf. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 [quote name='Kiger']A lot of people have asked me if they come any smaller - like mini size. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the millers get hold of them and make it happen. I'm afraid they are going to get more and more popular. I must have had 18 people say they wanted Kato last time I was in Petsmart - I said NO YOU DON'T! Someone asked if he was a little wolf. :roll:[/quote] Yes, I have noticed a huge increase in Shibas in the last year. They are perfect the way they are. They don't need to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullygirl29532 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 millers are the most despicable, undiscerning, low life bottom of the barrel, karmicly challenged person i can imagine. who value money over everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poofy Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 "mills" are usually invisioned as being nasty dumps...and that is how I invision them. Commercial breeders or farms usually take emaculate care of the dogs but do have the goal of producing a profit, just as any farmer. I don't like the idea of puppy farms, but until hobby breeders can take on the public and make themselves more desirable, then they will remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 [quote name='newfiemom']A miller/farmer is a person that breeds any two same purebreds regardless of any problems (health, temperment, structure) for the sake of profit. The miller's dogs are kept in horrific conditions and in small cages. The females are bred and have to produce until they are no longer able to. These people need to be put in small cages and made to live out their lives as such.[/quote] Yes, and to make matters worse, the plight of the sickly puppies is surely passed on to the buying public. This is a sad part of it too. Many, many people who buy the pups are then left with the mess to deal with, as in terribly ill animals, huge vet costs aside from the overly inflated cost of the animal in the first instance, and heartache. In my opinion the animals suffer terribly and the owners suffer the after math of confusion, expense and heartache. One could look on the bright side of the whole issue and maybe know that once bitten-twice shy and anyone having been taken in by a Miller/BYB/Farmer may go on to become educated in these matters and then go on to do more education of potential puppy buyers. This could be said to be the bright side of the whole scenario one could suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Some of the Puppy Farmers in our area are actually Farmers. Many were losing the family homestead and went into farming dogs. There was a news story on our local stations about them, condoning the operation. It was obvious that they were raising the dogs similar to hogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogPaddle Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 How can any large scale farm, even if immaculatly clean well maintained, provide what a dog needs for a humane lifestyle for its breeding stock? Dogs are social animals, dogs that have been housed in shelters for too long develop behaviour issues or shows symptoms of stress and/or depression. Someone mentioned hog style dog farms, the "dog farms" I have seen (on internet or tv only) provide no outdoor pens or fenced areas, even hog farms have these. Ok roommate and I just did some very amature calculations here that led us to this question - How can large scale puppy farm provide properly for the needs of dogs and still turn a profit without breeding too often? It costs me $750 (can) per year just for Kavik's food, yearly innoc. and dog licence. Add all the costs of running a business and way more food and vet bills and the cost to produce a litter properly has got to exceed $3500 (can). In general purebred puppies, with papers, with good health and certified parents cost between $400 to $800 (can) and that's if they are pet quality or not "champion lines" wich most would be from large scale farms if your lucky. You would have to have a litter of at least 6 to turn a profit and that profit would be $300 (can) PER YEAR. Now of course they could get volume discounts on some things so lets even triple their profit - $900 per year from one breeding female (and some portion of care for a stud or stud fees) if you did the marginally right thing and bred her only 1x per year. Official poverty line income in Ontario is around $26500 per year in 1990. So you would need to have at least 30 breeding females plus a few males to make a [b]barely subsistance level[/b] living if you treating the dogs [b]anywhere close to right[/b]. I could be way off but I seriously doubt that many if any "puppy farms" are much more than slightly cleaner puppy mills with better PR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 the dogs are not socialized, there is no time. They are continually shoveling poop, etc. Full time job with no time to play with the pups. Yes, like livestock. But dogs crave human attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 The farmer gives his own vaccinations which takes the cost down considerably. Farmers that have had hogs or cattle, previously, are usually up on where to buy wholesale and have Vets available to come to the property. Substantial price cuts for quantity purchase of pet food brings cost down considerably. Please keep in mind that most of these people have 100 or more dogs. I don't know which is worse, the hog houses and muddy pens, cold in winter, hot in summer, flies feeding on ears and mosquito's spreading heartworm (although most give Ivermectin liquid). Or the raised cages that allow the waste to fall through into troughs to be washed into a septic system, that allow the ammonia from urine to build up and fry the animals lungs. The wire floors cut and splay the pets feet, the constant balancing on wire also causes elbows and hips to give out.The dog's feet never touch grass again. No opportunity to run or even stretch it's legs. Eating from coffee cans that may spill and fall through the wire, meaning no meal for that day. Never a pat on the head or a kind word. Real quality of life in both scenarios? Animals in these situations would be better off dead in my opinion. This sounds harsh but when you look into the eyes of the dogs it is obvious their spirit is already dead. The newer dogs in the farm stand out, as they still have hope in their eyes. Let me note here, that many females do not raise their own pups. They are taken away and put on a breed that is known "good milkers" that will be kept milking for several litters. Less work for the farmer. Believe me, there is big money in these operations. The bitches are bred every heet cycle. The most valued animal is the one that produces large litters. Others are sold at public auction to an even worse scenario. WD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 [quote name='Watchdog'] I don't know which is worse, the hog houses and muddy pens, cold in winter, hot in summer, flies feeding on ears and mosquito's spreading heartworm (although most give Ivermectin liquid). [/quote] WD, you are talking about dogs, here and not a hog operation, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Hobbit, Yes, I am speaking of farmers that quit farming hogs and crops to farm dogs. They are making more money on dogs. They make few changes, add fencing around hog houses and put a few dogs in each pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 [quote name='Watchdog']Hobbit, Yes, I am speaking of farmers that quit farming hogs and crops to farm dogs. They are making more money on dogs. They make few changes, add fencing around hog houses and put a few dogs in each pen.[/quote] Maybe in Illinois --- but, there is a MILLION head swine operation in the Texas panhandle that is definately making more money with swine, than dogs. The hog houses (most of them) that I've seen are immaculant. The hogs are housed in barns (finishing, gestation, or farrowing) with concrete floors that have an automatic wash system. The feces and urine is washed into a lagoon (not a septic system --- which is against State rules and reg's in Texas). In the lagoon, the effluent vaporates or is used as irrigation on fields. It's all concrete, there are no muddy pens > because mud stresses an animal and causes weight loss, lessens rate of gain, health problems. There are minimum flies, because they have automatic fly spray systems. There are no mosquito's because they have automatic water bowls. The hogs press a bar that fills the bowl up, water doesn't usually stand in the bowls, and if it does .... it's not for long. Most barns are equipped with fans, water mist systems and the concrete stays cool in the summer. There are heat lamps for the winter for warmth. I know this wasn't a HOG issue ---- but, most hog producers (here in Texas) take pride in their program, their hogs and their housing....and are making more money off the hogs, then they would selling dogs. Like anything else, there are also bad hog producers. They usually don't stay in business very long. Depending on the number of hogs or cattle > they are regulated in Texas ---- but, that's another OFF THE TOPIC story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLCPETS Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 [quote name='Hobbit'][quote name='Watchdog']Hobbit, Yes, I am speaking of farmers that quit farming hogs and crops to farm dogs. They are making more money on dogs. They make few changes, add fencing around hog houses and put a few dogs in each pen.[/quote] Maybe in Illinois --- but, there is a MILLION head swine operation in the Texas panhandle that is definately making more money with swine, than dogs. The hog houses (most of them) that I've seen are immaculant. The hogs are housed in barns (finishing, gestation, or farrowing) with concrete floors that have an automatic wash system. The feces and urine is washed into a lagoon (not a septic system --- which is against State rules and reg's in Texas). In the lagoon, the effluent vaporates or is used as irrigation on fields. It's all concrete, there are no muddy pens > because mud stresses an animal and causes weight loss, lessens rate of gain, health problems. There are minimum flies, because they have automatic fly spray systems. There are no mosquito's because they have automatic water bowls. The hogs press a bar that fills the bowl up, water doesn't usually stand in the bowls, and if it does .... it's not for long. Most barns are equipped with fans, water mist systems and the concrete stays cool in the summer. There are heat lamps for the winter for warmth. I know this wasn't a HOG issue ---- but, most hog producers (here in Texas) take pride in their program, their hogs and their housing....and are making more money off the hogs, then they would selling dogs. Like anything else, there are also bad hog producers. They usually don't stay in business very long. Depending on the number of hogs or cattle > they are regulated in Texas ---- but, that's another OFF THE TOPIC story.[/quote] I agree Hobbitt these people do not have a million dollar operation to neglect it.They are rich to begin with.With no plans to lose their investment.ANYTHING they need for the business is a tax deduction so why cut corners.The same with dogs all Testing is TAX deductible Food is Tax deductible.EVERY expense is tax deductible.Every CH is tax deductible. Thats AMERICA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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