Hobbit Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Exactly Mei-Mei (we need to get together and shuffle some cards!_ -- even if a person doesn't play poker......the entire world is not stupid. People who belittle, talk down and try to make others feel inadequate are themselves insecure about their knowledge and place in the world. :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I consider pointing out irresponsible breeding practices to be education. Sorry if you don't. I do not think the world is all sweetness and light. These things need to be pointed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Okay I am getting just a little be irrate at the fact that I lock a subject because it gets of topic then I restart what is ment to be a genetics topic. Is this about genetics? I think not. I do need help with character analizing nor does anyone here. If I do I will let someone know. We help others sometimes it tends to change breeding practices. You may not believe that but I do. (You should try it :wink: ) Someone tell me how it is bad to teach someone that a white dog is sometimes prone to deafness,even a lurker. Genetics is not bad either way you cut it. Telling someone not to breed before the age of 2 is not bad, nor is helping someone to understand they need medical testing on their dogs before they breed. Maybe if everyone would quit flaming and jumping we could have a conversation/debate/something. :-? [color=red]Thank you[/color] *Notice all futher flaming posts will be deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 SandyB, For your information, I am past President of a large Humane Society. I am also a State Licensed Humane Investigator. I have been in more Commercial facilities than I can count. What I have learned through my years in the Humane Field is that the people running the Commercial Kennels are just as passionate about their dogs as I am mine. Quality dogs do not abound, yet many have purchased Champions to improve their breeding. Most of these breeders are striving to improve. Many of the facilities were immaculate, others nasty pits. I have seen the same in show kennels. My point here is to say that you will not stop these people from breeding dogs. Some of these people are clearing a half million a year and keeping over a thousand dogs. Since we all know they will not give up a business this profitable, we may as well teach them do to it right. The animals will benefit. Nothing is accomplished by pointing fingers and name calling. I have seen some very postive changes through the years and hope for more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 watchdog, I never said all show breeders are responsible. There are certainly some show breeders in my breed I would not associate with or do business with. I do not agree with breeding commercially, period. It violates my national breed club Code of Ethics. I do not believe in commercial breeders getting better stock to mill and pump out pups like a product. And teaching them just teaches them buzzwords to scam good breeders to violate the code of ethics. I used to be naive and believe as you do. I do not anymore. I have seen this too many times. I am very very careful who I sell dogs with open papers to. I would never sell to someone that does not sell pet quality on spay/neuter, that doesn't do health testing, that doesn't screen potential buyers, that doesn't take back thier dogs. If someone wants to learn to better thier breeding program, to me that means spaying and neutering the byb quality stuff they have and then I MIGHT think about helping them. That would show me their committment to actually want to improve . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 [quote name='sandyb']I do not believe in commercial breeders getting better stock to mill and pump out pups like a product. [/quote] So, you believe that they should keep poor stock? If you truly believe this, then you are dropping down to an unspeakable level of uncare. They are not going to stop breeding, but may change their practices. Having said that, as least the stock is better. It's a profit and no matter what [b]YOU[/b] or anyone else say, they aren't going to stop. If it's competition with you or other "good" breeders; their reputation will procede them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 "So, you believe that they should keep poor stock? If you truly believe this, then you are dropping down to an unspeakable level of uncare. " NO I believe they should breed responsibly or not at all. "They are not going to stop breeding, but may change their practices. Having said that, as least the stock is better. " They are sure not going to have my dogs in their pedigree until the PROVE they are truly willing to change and upgrade thier stock and become responsible. Screen buyers, sell on spay/neuter, long term no looplhole health warranties, lifetime takeback clauses, educating buyers. "It's a profit and no matter what YOU or anyone else say, they aren't going to stop. " As long as they are doing it solely for profit, they sure aren't going to get help from me. "If it's competition with you or other "good" breeders; their reputation will procede them." Competition? that is the byb excuse as to why the quality breeders wont help them. The people that want to buy pups from me know the difference. Apples and oranges. And yes their reputation is beginning to proceed them, why do you think they want to scam good breeders ? They want good stock so they can advertise them as champion lines. They still dont want to screen buyers, do health testing, long term no loophole health warranties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullygirl29532 Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 i'm not a breeder but one day i might be when i get older. but if a miller gets better stock isn't it logical than that they will just dilute the good w/ the bad? i too hope these people will realise the folly of their ways but most make to much money to care. it is a business which means it comes down to the bottom line expense VS profits. plus alot of people see nothing wrong w/ bad breeding practises b/c they don't know what good ones are. most top of the line breeders charge to much for the avarege family to plunk down $600 for a pet plus vet costs and various other expenses. so when they see the dog of thier choice in an add for $250 they jump @ the chance regardless of everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 [quote name='sandyb']"So, you believe that they should keep poor stock? If you truly believe this, then you are dropping down to an unspeakable level of uncare. " NO I believe they should breed responsibly or not at all. [color=red][b]Agreed.[/b][/color] "They are not going to stop breeding, but may change their practices. Having said that, as least the stock is better. " They are sure not going to have my dogs in their pedigree until the PROVE they are truly willing to change and upgrade thier stock and become responsible. Screen buyers, sell on spay/neuter, long term no looplhole health warranties, lifetime takeback clauses, educating buyers. [color=darkred][b]That is fine, do not sell anyone of unethical practices one of your dogs, ....not saying YOU personally should.[/b][/color] "It's a profit and no matter what YOU or anyone else say, they aren't going to stop. " As long as they are doing it solely for profit, they sure aren't going to get help from me. [b][color=red]YES, I think we ALL understand that --- over and over again. I, also, am well educated and do not need you repeating it over and over. [/color][/b] "If it's competition with you or other "good" breeders; their reputation will procede them." Competition? that is the byb excuse as to why the quality breeders wont help them. The people that want to buy pups from me know the difference. Apples and oranges. And yes their reputation is beginning to proceed them, why do you think they want to scam good breeders ? They want good stock so they can advertise them as champion lines. They still dont want to screen buyers, do health testing, long term no loophole health warranties. [color=darkred][b]YES YES YES, I HEARD you the first 10 times you posted this! YOU can not be at everyone's door step telling them NOT to sell an unethical person a puppy. NO matter, some where, someone, is going to be slick and purchase a "show" quality puppy. [/b][/color][/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Bulliegirl, exactly, They will just dilute the quality lines anyways when they breed it to their dogs. That is one of the reasons I wont help someone until everything they where breeding is spayed. And they have to sign a contract that they will sell responsibly, only sell open stock to responsible breeders, spay neuter pets, etc etc. I have a perfect example. I let someone breed to my stud dog. Her dogs are poor qualty. She does finish some of them by dragging them around long enough. She got a bitch out of that litter. She was very nice. She finished her very fast in tough competition. Everyone liked the bitch. Then she just bred her back into her stuff and the pups and grandpups look like her stuff, awful. She never improved. No one will breed to her anymore after they have seen what she does. She has asked people and they have turned her down. And yes the hardest thing is to educate the public that you get what you pay for. usually spending $250 more will save you thousands in vet bills over the life of the dog, at least in my breed. A vast majority of the byb dogs are very poor quality and have all kinds of allergies, skin problems, diabetes, bladder stones, etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Basic genetics seem to be your strong suit. You are saying that when you breed a healthy,standard, speciman to an inferior speciman there will be no known improvement? I cannot believe that. I am not naive. Must you label everyone that thinks differently? You simply cannot understand that Commercial breeders don't care if you sell them a dog or how great your line is. They don't spend their time discussing your practices on an open forum. You say you have offered to educate but ONLY if everything goes your way. I don't think you are able to educate anyone. You have closed your mind to reality. Buying from, or selling to, a Commercial breeder has nothing to do with education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullygirl29532 Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 this is a very simple example/question but bare w/ me... if you were to take one greatly bred bitch and one poorly bred dog and mated the two you would inprove the dogs line but not the bitches nor the breed as a whole. so you would be improving the breed but is that the way you really want it done? i think CH show dogs and working dogs should be matched great line to great line each with strengths that compensate the faults of the other. isn't that truly the idea of better breeding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Bullygirl the looks of a show dog and working dog are different in many breeds. Doing this will end up with dogs that cannot show and dogs that cannot work. Some breeds to show and work and there is no breeding of a working line to a show line it is all instinct of the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bullygirl29532 Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 no sorry i wasn't clearer jacsmom i ment CH show dog to CH show dog or great working dog to great working dog. not interbreeding the different type of REG. dogs. does this clarify it? let me know i took a chill pill and it's kicking in so my english is a not so good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Jeeze. We were all a happy little family(mostly)...now that the one board has closed down, it's as if we are getting members that are just coming to put each other down. No info about them and their dogs. No "hi, I'm a new member". Nothing. Just fights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 [quote name='Jacsmom']Bullygirl the looks of a show dog and working dog are different in many breeds. Doing this will end up with dogs that cannot show and dogs that cannot work. Some breeds to show and work and there is no breeding of a working line to a show line it is all instinct of the breed.[/quote] Thanks for bring up show vs working. I was going to do that, but I could hear the can opener opening another can of worms. :wink: You are so right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Sorry, I feel I am the one being treated with a VERY condescending tone by many of the regualars. Calling me names, telling me I am flaming when they are flaming me and I am not. You sure dont treat guests very hospitably, why should I bother to get chummy? I am being treated very rudely by most of you I would say. Telling me to go away, telling me I am flaming when I am not, telling me I am close minded, when YOU are the ones that are being close minded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 [quote name='sandyb']Sorry, I feel I am the one being treated with a VERY condescending tone by many of the regualars. Calling me names, telling me I am flaming when they are flaming me and I am not. You sure dont treat guests very hospitably, why should I bother to get chummy? I am being treated very rudely by most of you I would say. Telling me to go away, telling me I am flaming when I am not, telling me I am close minded, when YOU are the ones that are being close minded.[/quote] Sandyb, when you came to this board, all you did was scream at TLC. That was the first impress all of us got of you.... How do you expect us to react when all we have seen from you from the begining is bickering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 [quote name='sandyb']Sorry, I feel I am the one being treated with a VERY condescending tone by many of the regualars. Calling me names, telling me I am flaming when they are flaming me and I am not. You sure dont treat guests very hospitably, why should I bother to get chummy? I am being treated very rudely by most of you I would say. Telling me to go away, telling me I am flaming when I am not, telling me I am close minded, when YOU are the ones that are being close minded.[/quote] Sandyb, when you came to this board, all you did was scream at TLC. That was the first impression all of us got of you.... How do you expect us to react when all we have seen from you from the begining is bickering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:31 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Basic genetics seem to be your strong suit. You are saying that when you breed a healthy,standard, speciman to an inferior speciman there will be no known improvement? I cannot believe that. I am not naive. Must you label everyone that thinks differently? You simply cannot understand that Commercial breeders don't care if you sell them a dog or how great your line is. They don't spend their time discussing your practices on an open forum. You say you have offered to educate but ONLY if everything goes your way. I don't think you are able to educate anyone. You have closed your mind to reality. Buying from, or selling to, a Commercial breeder has nothing to do with education. First of all, I find the tone of your post quite offensive to say the least. And you obviously did not read or comprehend my statement. I said that someone tried to breed up, then just bred back into thier stock and went right back downhill, thus no improvement over the long run. Breeding is NOt about 1 mating, but a program to be carried out generation after generation. And yes you are VERY naive. Commercial breeders are DYING to get quality lines so they can sell their dogs for more money because they have champion lines. You are very rude. I have not cloeed my mind to reality at all. You are too naive to see reality. Commercial breeders are trying to get quality lines and learn what to say all the time. Many of my friends have been duped. You might want to respond with less of a holier than though attitude in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 [quote name='sandyb']Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:31 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Basic genetics seem to be your strong suit. You are saying that when you breed a healthy,standard, speciman to an inferior speciman there will be no known improvement? I cannot believe that. I am not naive. Must you label everyone that thinks differently? You simply cannot understand that Commercial breeders don't care if you sell them a dog or how great your line is. They don't spend their time discussing your practices on an open forum. You say you have offered to educate but ONLY if everything goes your way. I don't think you are able to educate anyone. You have closed your mind to reality. Buying from, or selling to, a Commercial breeder has nothing to do with education. First of all, I find the tone of your post quite offensive to say the least. [color=red][b]Funny, I think "tone" is very difficult to distinguish in written form. Hard to say if it's good or bad when you can't actually hear the person. [/b][/color]And you obviously did not read or comprehend my statement. I said that someone tried to breed up, then just bred back into thier stock and went right back downhill, thus no improvement over the long run. Breeding is NOt about 1 mating, but a program to be carried out generation after generation. And yes you are VERY naive. Commercial breeders are DYING to get quality lines so they can sell their dogs for more money because they have champion lines. You are very rude. I have not cloeed my mind to reality at all. You are too naive to see reality. Commercial breeders are trying to get quality lines and learn what to say all the time. Many of my friends have been duped. You might want to respond with less of a holier than though attitude in the future.[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 gigi then you are admitting you are close minded. You dont give a person a second chance? Very hospitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 [quote name='sandyb']gigi then you are admitting you are close minded. You dont give a person a second chance? Very hospitable.[/quote] Umm...no. Please do not put words in my mouth. Sorry Sandyb but I have not seen anything positive in your posts. Mind you, I may not have read them all since I'm not a genetics person, but I really don't remember seeing anywhere on this forum where you were positive and helpful and not putting people down. Like I said, maybe I didn't read any of those posts. All I've seen is negativity. And, this was not typed in a negative tone. I am very calm and even tempered right now so please do not take this out of content. I'm just stating what I have and/or haven't seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 In my opinion, I have been following the rules. I do not consider my latest posts on the topic of Tlc's byb breeding habits flaming. Maybe you do, I do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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