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Test Breedings


Poofy

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"Poofy we don't all agree with each other. If you do not find the board interesting, then it is your choice to either stay or go somewhere else."


Its not a matter of just "agreeing" its a matter of thinking the same way.







"Several asked for YOUR explaination on genetics and YOU are one that got defensive. "


Yes, you asked me to state what I meant. And I said I did not want to get into this discussion, because it was a hot topic. You basically accused me of not knowing what I was talking baout and if I did I would prove it. I did prove it, and then I am accused of not writing what I wrote? That is NOT *me* getting deffensive that is being forced to defend myself. The point is I should NOT have to PROVE anything about myself to any one on here or any where else.



If a person is knowledgable about a subject they normally do not mind questions and posting answers. Apparently, you do mind --- and that's okay.


Actually, no I do NOT mind. I can talk the subject all day. Infact I get lots of e-mails from my peers in reguard to color genetics in our breed. I also talk to other breeders, of different breeds as well. I enjoy talking about it. But, test breeding is a topic as hot as abortion, among breeders. And I will say, the air of this forum is very unwavering. I have seen it over and over, when the topic of breeding is brought up.





Now, if you have any scenario's as to the test matings that you know about, it would be educational to read some. Especially the conclusion(s) of the test. This may help someone that is reading the forum, but afraid to post, from making the same mistake



I have a couple of scenerios in my color genetics article I am working on. Its on my home page. They are *not* very good examples simply because I had to keep them very, very, very simply because I am writing the paper for our breed club 'zine. But it will give you the jest of the idea. When its done (and I am so anal it will probably never get done)

There is, I wish I could find the article, an institution right now, doing test breeding on liver shunts in Yorkies, I think. They want to purchase affected animals and animals with affected offspring and siblings, to try and test for the mode of inheretance.

George Padgett has a decent explanation in his book, Malcolm willis has a pretty good explanation but no real examples, his is also a bit earier to read I think. I think the Genetic Connection, book might have some info...then of course there are my past text books, but they are about boring. I would have to think about that...and see if I could devise a test mating. I will probably use color, because I can give you personal experiences with that and plausible solutions, also, color is a benign topic and less likely to spurn emotion. Even if you use color, you could insert, any autosonomal recessive or dominant anomolie that might be an issue and it would generally work the same.

The only problem, there is no way for me to design a good punnett square (in text) to give visual examples....
I will try tho.

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[quote]here is, I wish I could find the article, an institution right now, doing test breeding on liver shunts in Yorkies, I think. They want to purchase affected animals and animals with affected offspring and siblings, to try and test for the mode of inheretance. [/quote]


I hope this helps.I remember the article.
[url]http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs/shunts_faq.html[/url]

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[quote name='newfiemom']When I said to please explain the reasoning behind test breedings.[/quote]

Newf -- I know you asked Poofy, but .... here goes. Again, I would like to say (AGAIN) that genetic defect test matings should NOT be conducted by the lay person and should only be conducted by researchers that are interested in being able to isolate and eliminate the gene....and NOT done by a person that is breeding for profit.

Hypothetical scenario Newf:

Sire and dam have never displayed any signs of epilepsy.
Sire is mated to dam, the resulting progeny produced has two pups that are epileptic. (for practical purposes, lets say the epilepsy is not the result from chemical or environmental factors, but is genetic).

A person could neuter/spay both parents and be done with it. The rest of the litter, even though they have displayed NO signs of epilepsy....may be carriers. It would be safe, or to be safe, the entire line should be neutered/spayed. If this was an endangered species, this would not be a good thing to do.

A TEST-MATING:
Breed the sire to a different dam, for this to work the dam MUST be clean (no epilepsy). If the litter produced contains an epileptic or carrier, then the sire is affected (with no signs) or he is a carrier.

The same can be done for the dam. If pups produced show no signs, this does NOT mean that she is 100 % clean, subsequent test mating should be conducted.

Both sire and dam could be carriers --- thus producing epilepsy in their progeny.

One could be a carrier --- the way to confirm this, is to do a test mating.

This is not always 100%, because of many, many variations that could occur.



A test mating of color:

Scenario:
Two sisters, same litter are bred to the same male. They both produce a white offspring (white is not a color for that breed).

The only way to find out who is the carrier of the gene, is to do a test breeding.

Breed sister #1 to a different male --- resulting offspring normal color.
Breed sister #2 to a different male --- resulting offspring normal color.
Breed sire to different female or females --- resulting offspring normal color.

Conclusion: they are both carriers for this color. The only to re-produce this color is for those sisters to be mated with THAT sire. It does not mean that EVERY time you mate them, they will produce a mis-mark, it just means they carry that recessive gene and if "Mis-marks" are not wanted then, do not breed them together.

I can see, from a genetics standpoint, the need for test-matings --- but only when it's done by a researcher for RESEARCH purposes and not by the "out-for-profit" breeder that wants to "SEE" of they can produce a genetic defect in the next litter.


This was in a hurry, so if I typo'ed, forgive me. If something doesn't make sense.....I typed it wrong....just ask me.

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Test breedings should never be done willy-nilly (padgett said that too), they are *risky*. And only when the benefits will out way the bad.
The breeds that most rely on the willingness of breeders, to do test breedings, are those with small and limited gene pools. Sometimes for the benefit of the breed...you HAVE to know how something is inherited.

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......okay, I will go further.

Real life:

Wylie (Border Collie) was bred to Marley (BC) -- both good working dogs, both healthy, both checked by vet. Bred for the ranch.

One pup had a seizure when he was 9 wks old. Unknown the cause; could have been the dewormer or vaccine. He seized approx. 15 minutes after the dewormer (Pyrantel). Never had another seizure (that we've seen).

Farfel (Wylie's son) was bred to Ozzy (sister to Marley) -- produced one pup. We kept her for the ranch. Good working dog, wouldn't trade her for a million dollars. At 2.5 yrs old, 12 hours after Interceptor --- she had a seizure. It took her months to recover. Recover, meaning --- she wasn't the same after the seizure. She is much better now and we watch her more closely.

Now, I could do the test mating to see which line it's coming from. I have opted to [b]NOT[/b] do this. The seizures, could be totally environmental, could be genetic, the vet does not know --- he can't find anything. BUT, to be sure --- we have chosen to [b]NOT[/b] ever breed these dogs again, ever.

That's just our ethics, though.

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[quote name='Poofy']Test breedings should never be done willy-nilly (padgett said that too), they are *risky*. And only when the benefits will out way the bad.
The breeds that most rely on the willingness of breeders, to do test breedings, are those with small and limited gene pools. Sometimes for the benefit of the breed...you HAVE to know how something is inherited.[/quote]


I understand and actually agree....to a point. BUT...there are too many people out there that think "Test-mating" is "okay". It's NOT, should not let's say, to be done by the person that is not well versed on genetics. Color coat test breeding, I can see. BUT NOT genetic defects. Too many people have the "I have a good eye for a good dog" attitude. And would not be willing to put down a defective dog and wouldn't even know it if they had one, because some of the defects could be hidden. And you know what I'm talking about, when I say hidden.

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On your BC delima...

Its pretty common for collie type breeds (oddly those that carry the merle gene)...to have reaction to heart wormer and other womer chemicals, particularly ivermectine. It has something to do with a low blood brain barrier. i would have to look up my notes on it if you want more info..



Also, I do know about the " I have an eye" mentality...unfortunately your eye isn't the thing needed to figure out the risk factors...those with that attitude tend to be missing that vital organ... ;)

P.s.

Having been a smart a** and made that statement...I will add this...I have met a couple of people who were sevants when it came to pedigrees...they just some how *knew* what would happen.... but those types are a needle in a hay stack.

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[quote name='Poofy']On your BC delima...

Its pretty common for collie type breeds (oddly those that carry the merle gene)...to have reaction to heart wormer and other womer chemicals, particularly ivermectine. It has something to do with a low blood brain barrier. i would have to look up my notes on it if you want more info..

[color=blue][b]They are Border Collies, solid color (black/white & red/white). None of our herding bred dogs ever (EVER) are given anything that contains Ivermectrin. We use Interceptor, which is Milbemycin. Oh yeah, I preach and have preached on this board about Ivermectrin and herding bred dogs. :wink: [/b][/color]

Also, I do know about the " I have an eye" mentality...unfortunately your eye isn't the thing needed to figure out the risk factors...those with that attitude tend to be missing that vital organ... ;)

P.s.

Having been a smart a** and made that statement...I will add this...I have met a couple of people who were sevants when it came to pedigrees...they just some how *knew* what would happen.... but those types are a needle in a hay stack.[/quote]

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Hello genetic nuts :lol: I was wondering if anyone could tell me about research done on color genetics merle in particular , Hobbits given me some good websites but what Im also after is where abouts the research is conducted ( universities people ect) . I would also like to ask is the merle gene of a great dane the same as a b/collie ?Im completely frustrated by the genetics of my breed and need to have hard facts to pass on to others involved with koolies As it stands 90% of the breeders in Australia breed merle to merle I know this is dangerous and every time I try to explain to owners they give me the old but thats about shetland sheep dogs /great danes not koolies .I believe my dogs are descendants from b/collies if anyones got research on coloring /blue eye/ whiteness please let me know via email or pm if you want I have SO MUCH to learn Im now in the position of being registar for working koolies so if I can pass this info along it would be a step in the right direction

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Newfie mom... I gave you reasons for a test breeding. If want examples of scenerios you can read Hobbits or when I finish mine you can read it.

Hobbit: I have seen Border collies come in merle, as well as sable... Still they go back to similar origins of the sheltie don't they? I know the irish shelties sure do look like a border collie.

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[quote name='Poofy']Newfie mom... I gave you reasons for a test breeding. If want examples of scenerios you can read Hobbits or when I finish mine you can read it.

Hobbit: I have seen Border collies come in merle, as well as sable... Still they go back to similar origins of the sheltie don't they? I know the irish shelties sure do look like a border collie.[/quote]


Yes, Border Collies do come in merle (red & blue), sable, red (ranging from creme to chocolate), black, blue (ranging from very light to very dark).

The person given credit for producing the Border Collie was a Northumbrian farmer, Adam Telfer. He succeeded in a blend of hard, powerful dog that were difficult to handle, control and were rough on stock with a dog with an milder temperment, more style, stealth, keen instinct, and that used "eye" over roughness.

They are decendants of "working collies". In the 1800's there were many sheepdog-type dogs being used. Everything from very rough to very mild. Adam Telfer was able to combine the two and produce the dog that we know today as the "Border Collie".

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[quote name='working koolie']Hello genetic nuts :lol: I was wondering if anyone could tell me about research done on color genetics merle in particular , Hobbits given me some good websites but what Im also after is where abouts the research is conducted ( universities people ect) . I would also like to ask is the merle gene of a great dane the same as a b/collie ?Im completely frustrated by the genetics of my breed and need to have hard facts to pass on to others involved with koolies As it stands 90% of the breeders in Australia breed merle to merle I know this is dangerous and every time I try to explain to owners they give me the old but thats about shetland sheep dogs /great danes not koolies .I believe my dogs are descendants from b/collies if anyones got research on coloring /blue eye/ whiteness please let me know via email or pm if you want I have SO MUCH to learn Im now in the position of being registar for working koolies so if I can pass this info along it would be a step in the right direction[/quote]

Koolie, basically --- it is the same, but different. Now, that you are confused --- don't look at the site for Dane coat color. Instead, view the site concerning Australian Shepherd coat color at: [url]http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/3559/index.htm[/url]

There is a genetic website, that goes into detail about the color genetics. This website will explain it all. You can email the author and she will be more than happy to return email the answers. Here is her information:

Sue Ann Bowling, North Pole, Alaska
[url]http://mosquitonet.com/~sbowling[/url] (general)
[url]http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/DogPage.html[/url] (dogs)
[url]http://climate.gi.alaska.edu/Bowling/Bowling.html[/url] (professional--retired)

Her email address is: [email][email protected][/email]

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[quote name='working koolie']I believe my dogs are descendants from b/collies if anyones got research on coloring /blue eye/ whiteness please let me know via email or pm if you want I have SO MUCH to learn Im now in the position of being registar for working koolies so if I can pass this info along it would be a step in the right direction[/quote]

Koolie --- that is the belief and from what I've read the Koolie is almost the same as the Australian Shepherd. In fact, the Aussie has been called the "American version of the Koolie/Coolie".

Just remember -- Dogs are either genetically either black or brown (red). Many genes act upon other genes and individually to cause effect. Meaning: an epistatic gene will cause another gene to act differently. There are so many factors to consider. Too much to try to go into on a post.

BC's are one of the breeds with two kinds of blue--dd, sometimes called Maltese blue, is what is usually called just "blue" (a uniform blue-gray color where the dog would otherwise be black) and blue merle Mm, which is a patchy dilution. If your blue merle was DdMm and your blue was ddmm, about one pup in four would be expected to be ddMm, merle with the black areas diluted (to gray or light blue) by the dd dilution and would be called "Maltese blue dilutes". The presence or absence of tan points is independent of either dilution gene and currently there is some controversy about the genetic mechanism.

Are you wanting to breed more blue-eyed dogs or breed it out? Simple, if you want to breed it out. And, I guess simple if you want to breed it in, too. The color of the eye has nothing to do with vision.

The white can also be "factored out or in" depending if you want less white or more white.

Don't forget about the "Self-merles" and "Phantom or Cryptic merles" -- 8)

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Thanks Hobbit can always count on you to come up with the goods :lol: It looks like Im off surfing to Alaska Do you remember the black and white bitch (you said it looks like a McNabbs) out of a red merle and blue merle bitch she has developed (probably always had) white hairs at the base and turns black half way up the hair could this be a sign of a cryptic merle I guess its most likely as she was a merle to merle breeding .One more question is it safe to breed her to a merle (from merle to merle parents)?

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[quote name='working koolie']Thanks Hobbit can always count on you to come up with the goods :lol: It looks like Im off surfing to Alaska Do you remember the black and white bitch (you said it looks like a McNabbs) out of a red merle and blue merle bitch she has developed (probably always had) white hairs at the base and turns black half way up the hair could this be a sign of a cryptic merle I guess its most likely as she was a merle to merle breeding .One more question is it safe to breed her to a merle (from merle to merle parents)?[/quote]

Yes, I do remember her. Nice female, minimum black.

It is possible that she could be a phantom merle or the coloration could be what is called "banding". If it's banding, then no -- she is not a merle.

Is the merle from a merle to merle a "double merle" or could he be carrying another color (like black or red)? You probably do not know this unless you've bred him to a solid black; if you have done this and ALL the pups were merle, then he is a double merle. (A good example of TEST-MATING).

How much white does he have on him? And, do you want this white passed to the pups? If it's the picture of the merle that you sent me, wasn't he a "self" merle (had no white)? If he has any white at all, no matter the size, he is not a self merle.

Let's say, she is NOT a merle and you bred to him and he IS a double merle, then all the pups should be merle. No risk of lethals (unless by terratogens or mutagens -- rare).

If she is NOT a merle and you bred to him and he is NOT a double merle (carrying a black and/or red gene). She should produce solids and merles. Again, no risk of lethal (disclaimer: unless by terratogens or mutagens).

If she IS a phantom merle and he is a double merle --- [b]it IS a risk. [/b] You may produce lethals, you may produce all merles, or you may produce merles and only one solid.

Let's see, she has brown eyes, right? If one of her parents had blue eyes, she could be heterozygous for that color. If the male has blue, green or both colored eyes and is homozygous --- some of the pups will have an eye color other than brown. If he is heterozygous for the blue or green color; then -- some will have blue or green and some will have brown.

If she is homozygous dominant for brown eyes --- and his eye color is blue or green, all pups should have brown eyes --- and some will carry the blue eye gene. When those that are heterzygous for the blue or green eye gene are mated with a blue or green eyed dog --- some of the pups could have blue or green eyes.

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Thanks Hobbit that is what I call laymans terms (easy to understand) The bitch comes from a dark blue merle bitch with two blue eyes the sire was a red merle two brown eyes (it is most likely that the fathers parentage is 3/4 koolie 1/4 kelpie as I know the breeder of the father) her banding as you call it is in the typical border collar area only . As a pup the bitch (mine that is ) showed a strong likeness to a border collie eg head shape temperment which really doesnt concern me as if she is an outcross 3 or 4 generations ago (I know for a fact it has to be at least that long ago) then hopefully it will create fresh blood with not too many bad genes :o I'm thinking of putting her to a 60% blue merle 40% white dog with one blue eye and one brown (it will also depend on working ablities as the bitch is only 9 months old so she wont be breed for 12 to 18 months) I know it is a bit of an experiement as far as the results but unforunately it is unheard of solid to solid breeding at the moment . I believe the dog to be a double merle his mother was a dark blue merle and his father was also a merle and white to make matters worse they were brother and sister and his grandparents were merles as well if it wasnt for the fact that his working ability was exceptional I wouldnt breed from him at all . The last mating I did was to a blue merle bitch with tan and it was a disaster I lost a third with eye sight problems. Having been to the site you recommended Im actually wondering if my bitch is not a sable merle she has quite obvious tan points and there just seems to be a slight hint of brown through her blue merle I tried to compare her to the shelties but it is hard with the long coats I would certainly never breed those two again at the time I had a lot of misinformation about merles . I wont breed this bitch again unless it was a solid out of a solid its a shame she works beautifully. Im in the process of mapping out the generations of colors of my dogs I was wondering if you could take a look at it if I email it to you ? :lol:

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YES, please email it to me. I'd love to see it.

Yes, it sounds like the male is a double merle. If in fact he is --- and if she is a solid (and being black), the entire litter should be merle.

It will be a hard road for you to convince people that have been doing it their way for generations upon generations, that breeding merle to merle is not necessary to achieve "merle". Breeding for herding instinct and a desire to work is more important than color.

I look forward to the color scheme. :wink:

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