"Blue" gene

[bk_blue]

Just thought I would start a new discussion about the "blue" gene in some dogs (Bull Terriers, Kelpies, Dobes, Weims, Pits and I am sure there are more). It is a recessive gene which should not be bred from as it is associated with genetic defects in some breeds eg. deafness. (I really like the colour though in Dobes and Kelpies, and I am a sucker for all Weimaraners!) What I am wondering is why do some people believe it should command a higher price? Although it is rare and very pretty it's not really good in some breeds to have "blue" dogs. I know that a blue Weim is disqualified from showing and breeding. It is an accepted colour, however, in Dobes and Kelpies, but can these dogs be bred from? (Hobbit, where are you?!) I really don't know much about the blue gene but thought I would post it to have it explained in layman's terms how it all works :)

[bk_blue]

Woops I meant to add the merle pattern in ACDs and the spots (is that a variation of merle?) in Dals can sometimes produce deafness or something, doesn't it? (I guess that's why heelers are BAER tested, or they should be.)

[Bensam]

Just to throw a bit on confusion into the debate- of approx. 20 breeds in the Toy group in Australia, there are 5 which are/or can be blue, with a number of others which can be "any colour". When I've got an hour to spare I'll go through the book of standards and find some more. :lol:

[bk_blue]

Funny you mention that K- there was an ad for a purebred BLUE Staffy in our trading post for AUD$1000 (US$570)... hmmm thought that was a little sus? :-?

[gooeydog]

I don't know much about the colors in the other breeds, but here's what I know about the blue color in pit bulls. I think the reason there are so many health problems in blue dogs is because of the amount of inbreeding (or other close breedings) needed to "find" the color (even if by accident). If the genes are doubling up on the recessive blue gene, what other (possibly bad) genes are they doubling up on? Some genetic defects that I've heard of blue dogs carrying are: temperment problems, congenital heart defects, eye problems, and skin problems/allergies. Much of this can probably be attributed to the breeders breeding the dogs "because they're rare blue", not because they really have good breed qualities. They start with poor foundation stock, then don't bother to do any testing (because they feel that if the dog can walk, he's obviously fine, and they don't want to waste money). There are sound/healthy blue pit bulls out there, but they don't seem to be as common as the ones with temperment/health problems. Blue dogs are becoming as common now as red nose dogs were a few years ago, and they're suffering for it, just as any other "popular" color has. Irresponsible breeders charge more for blue dogs because they know people will pay more for the "rare" or "special" dog. In reality, color shouldn't have anything to do with price in this breed, structure is more important. $570 is a "bargain" price for a blue pit bull here... BYBs are selling them for as much as $1500 (registered), and $800 (not registered). They are decreasing in price as they become more common though, and I've seen them for as low as $400 (of course if they have a huge head or wide chest, they cost more :roll: ).

[Hobbit]

bk -- the ACD does not have a merle gene. The white coat in ACD's (as seen in the new-born pups) converts to blue or red under the modifying influence of the epistatic Ticking gene. The patches are either black or red depending on which Agouti allele the dog carries.

The blue is a recessive dilution gene. It does not automatically mean that the dog will be unhealthy. Blue colored dogs can be bred without any health problems to the offspring, if bred selectively. I would not breed recessive to recessive.

[Hobbit]

[quote name='bk_blue']Just thought I would start a new discussion about the "blue" gene in some dogs (Bull Terriers, Kelpies, Dobes, Weims, Pits and I am sure there are more). It is a recessive gene which should not be bred from as it is associated with genetic defects in some breeds eg. deafness. (I really like the colour though in Dobes and Kelpies, and I am a sucker for all Weimaraners!) What I am wondering is why do some people believe it should command a higher price? Although it is rare and very pretty it's not really good in some breeds to have "blue" dogs. I know that a blue Weim is disqualified from showing and breeding. It is an accepted colour, however, in Dobes and Kelpies, but can these dogs be bred from? (Hobbit, where are you?!) I really don't know much about the blue gene but thought I would post it to have it explained in layman's terms how it all works :)[/quote]

Blue, fawn, or creme is not hard to breed --- if someone knows something about genetics. A person does not have to have two blue, two fawn or two creme colored dogs to produce a blue, fawn, or creme. The parents must be carriers of the dilution to produce a diluted color. Example: black sire, black dam, heterozygous for blk & red & both carriers of a dilution gene >> the offspring will be black, red & blue (that order according to the amount of puppies; ex: 10 pups; 5 blk, 3 red and 2 blues). The blacks could be carriers of the blue dilution gene and then they could not.

Another example: Black sire/black dam: both are carriers for the red gene, they are both heterozygous --- 50/50; 3 pups blk, 3 pups red.

Speaking of the merle gene as in Aussies. The breeding of merle to merle does produce lethal genes in the offspring. The same coloration can be achieved by breeding solid to merle --- there will be merle pups in the litter (along with solids). If a merle to merle mating does occur, there is a possibility that a pup could be borned that wasn't a lethal and is healthy. He is considered a Double Merle and is homozygous. When bred to solid colored, he will always produce merles.

[bk_blue]

Thanks guys, I'm less confused now :angel: I wasn't sure about the merle in that ACDs, I knew what I said wasn't right but now I know. :)

[Guest Anonymous]

Blue is an accepted color in Great Danes and there are no health risks assosiated with the color. The other problems come from poor breeding practises and can be in all the colors. In Great Danes, blue is beleived to be a recessive and not a dilute.
In dalmatians deafness is assosiated with lack of color around the head area. Most deaf dalmatians (not all) tend to have very light coloring. My dalmatian developed hereditary cateracts and he has very good color.
In German Shepherds, blue is considered a dilute of black. It is recessive and possible carriers may never express the gene because it takes both parents to carry it. My boy MAY be a carrier of that gene (his dad and granddad produced blue) so I have been doing research on blue and liver GSD's. I would not intentionally breed for that color, but no health risks are assosiated with the colors. Many blues that come with health problems were bred for their rare color only with no thought put into the many other areas of breeding. NO GOOD DOG IS A BAD COLOR! Many champion lines of German Shepherds carry the gene, but people are not willing to admit it and will sometimes cull the pups so noone knows. I hope this helps!

[bk_blue]

thanks :D

So... with the GSDs that carry the gene, do they cull all the puppies or just the ones who have the markings...? (sorry, just a bit confused) :-?

[GSDmom]

Sorry, that was me that posted last. I didn't realize I wasn't logged in!

[GSDmom]

We must have been typing at the same time! Not all breeders cull, but many do. The ones that do would cull just the blue pups, not all of them.

[bk_blue]

:( That's pretty bad. The blue GSDs would still be ok as pets wouldn't they? If you sold them spayed/neutered so they couldn't be bred from...?

[GSDmom]

Yes, they make wonderful pets. I know several people who have them. Color has no effect on temperment and working ablilty (we do SAR).

[bk_blue]

That's great that they can still be used in every way apart from breeding. I really like the blue colouring in many different dog breeds. :)

[wildbunch]

We have a beautiful blue merle great dane puppy. The blue merle is not recognized by akc as a showable color pattern in danes. I think they are gorgeous. After doing quite a lot of research the merle pattern is created by a Mantle and Harlequin breeding or Harlequin to Harlequin. Unfortunately if you breed Harl to Harl you also take the risk of creating a solid white dane which most are deaf or blind or both.
Coloring is a scary subject! If a BYB just throws two dogs together they may wind up with far more complications than they bargained for.
Had to put my two cents in as I am new to the forum and wanted to chat a little.
All dogs are created equal they should not be tossed aside because of color. :angel:

[bk_blue]

Hi Wildbunch and welcome. :D

The genetic complications of colouring are but one reason why BYBs should be outlawed. I know that you can have deaf dogs and it can work out well (ACDs and Dals I know there are quite a few of) but if you can give the dog its hearing by breeding correctly, then why not do it? Deafness has a lot more negative qualities than positive ones, I think with deaf Dals they used to (and probably still do) humanely destroy the deaf puppies.

I so agree that you shouldn't discriminate against a dog because of its colour! :fadein:

[bk_blue]

Sorry, I forgot to ask: deafness can be produced even with responsible breeding, can't it? Maybe a bit like if you're pregnant and do everything right and you have a baby who is deaf or something. :( (I am not trying to discriminate against deaf people or anything, but just using deafness as an example.)

[wildbunch]

I'm not sure about other breeds but in Danes some vets will put down the deaf puppies. :cry: With more responsible breeding and getting rid of the BYB we can get some of these genetic defaults out of the dane. There are now several rescues throughout the United States devoted entirely to deaf and or, blind danes. They teach the dogs sign language and advanced obedience then place them in homes and check on them every 3-6 months. The adoptee cannot sell or give away the dog they must be returned to the rescue (NO-KILL).
It is wonderful that so many people are banding together to try and prevent a future degenerative default in the Danes. :D
On a sad note, lately the rumors have been flying that all Merles are of poor health and will die early deaths :roll: . LOL. Yes there is genetics to consider but come on its a color, a merle is a harlequin with a gray base instead of white. I could go on this subject forever, our dane forum has been discussing it for quite some time. :lol:

P.S. To answer your question earlier BK:
Sorry, I forgot to ask: deafness can be produced even with responsible breeding, can't it?
-If we can get responsible breeders to research their color patterns and the pedigree we can eliminate alot of the white puppies. They say you need to trace both parents heritages back 5 generations in order to avoid the deaf gene (also blue eye gene). These poor puppies could have had a chance if breeders had done their research and wouldn't just shove two dogs together.

[Guest roo]

Harlies are hard to breed, in other countries you can show boston colour
(also known as mantle) but as of yet in the uk it is still a mismark, as are merles and whites.
Harlies are really the odd one out here, you can breed boston to boston and get boston only, so they must be a true colour.
merles have been known to be deaf too. But a dane is a dane.
I think that anyone who cosiders breeding harlies has to make the decision, before embarking on breeding them as to what to do with, whites
and in some cases merles.
it is not an easy thing to decide, years ago when we mated our harlie bitch we made the choice that should we get any whites they would be put to sleep asap. why? there are enough dogs out there in the world today that can not find good homes let alone a deaf or blind dog.
Do you want to know happened?
Well we ended up with one dead mumified puppy, delivered by ceasarian
and it was a harlie :cry:
If that was not enough, the dog we used was a german import from a very
very wellknown kennels out there, and a few weeks later he was found dead in his kennel at the age of 18 months, he had heart problems :x
We never ever mated our harlie again. although it is a clolour i love.
Roo

[Bensam]

You may have seen this site. Some Great Danes in Aussie. I see that they had imported some from England the sire being a German dog. Just wondered if there was any connection with the one you used. Anyway the site is [url]www.hildydanekennels.com.au/[/url] Thought it might be of interest if you hadn't seen it before.

[wildbunch]

Roo,

Sounds like you had a rough time of it. Did any of the other puppies show sign of the degenerative heart disease? Sounds like you had a good match but the other breeder didn't wait for the 2 years to see if any problems existed. I am not a breeder but I love large breed dogs and have been doing quite alot of research.
It is a tough question whether to put down a deaf pup or give it to a rescue.
If I have read my facts correctly any color dane can carry the Harlie color gene. It has to do be a dominant gene. There have been some that have bred 2 blacks and received Harlies.
The mantle is well received here in the U.S. but most find Merles to be a defect. :-? The U.S. is still primarily cropping their pups (just for looks). I'm going to leave our little girl natural. We clean her ears once a week.

[Hobbit]

bk -- Deafness can be caused by several factors; mutagens, terratogens, chemicals, genetic defects, illness, injury to the bitch while invitro, etc...



The only way to obtain a merle patterned color is if one parent is a merle (including phantoms/cryptics). If someone said the parents, of a merle pup, were both any other color, other than a merle and their parents were not merle (so you can rule out phantoms/cryptics), then that pup was sired by another sire. Merle = MM (homozygous dominant, usually lethal); Merle = Mm; Non-merle = mm (homozygous recessive).
Two non-merle pattern colored parents (that are not phantom's) can not produce a merle pattern --- the gene is not there.

[Guest roo]

[quote name='Bensam']You may have seen this site. Some Great Danes in Aussie. I see that they had imported some from England the sire being a German dog. Just wondered if there was any connection with the one you used. Anyway the site is [url]www.hildydanekennels.com.au/[/url] Thought it might be of interest if you hadn't seen it before.[/quote]
Thanks for the site Bensam :lol:
Not the bloodlines, but the helmlake breeding is very well known.
Can not believe the fronts and shoulders on those harlies :x
I think it was mei mei who was talking about danes in the past
(very old post) and i mentioned cathedral fronts and striaght shoulders
always going together, i wish i had these pictures then to show what i meant.
will look through the site more later
roo

[Guest roo]

[quote name='wildbunch']Roo,

Sounds like you had a rough time of it. Did any of the other puppies show sign of the degenerative heart disease? Sounds like you had a good match but the other breeder didn't wait for the 2 years to see if any problems existed. I am not a breeder but I love large breed dogs and have been doing quite alot of research.

this way many years ago, It is unknown as to if siblings had problems.
years ago people did not wait untill a dog was 2 years old to breed from it.


It is a tough question whether to put down a deaf pup or give it to a rescue.

it m,ay be a tough question. But why should any breeder send its cast offs to rescue :cry: it is a sad fact but one i do not agree with
If I have read my facts correctly any color dane can carry the Harlie color gene. It has to do be a dominant gene. There have been some that have bred 2 blacks and received Harlies.

i have my thick head on here, i dont quite understand what you mean :oops:
The mantle is well received here in the U.S. but most find Merles to be a defect. :-?

Again thick head is on :oops:
The U.S. is still primarily cropping their pups (just for looks). I'm going to leave our little girl natural. We clean her ears once a week.[/quote][b]

i like danes with or without the crop, you cant crop over here or show a cropped dog, but it does make the head look good :wink: [/b]