Can a dog food be to rich????

[Guest Anonymous]

I was wondering if food can be too rich for a dog? I'm currently feeding my Dobie(almost 6 months) Puppy Innova. It list the first 3 ingredents as Turkey, Chicken, Chicken meal. Now, I know first couple of ingredents in the dog food should be a good type of meat source but would it be overdoing it if the first 3 are meats???
I ask this because everyother poop he does seems loose, the other one would be normal. We also have some fruit trees in our yard and notice that he likes to pull them off the branch(sometimes with the branchs) and chew and eat them.

[julie45]

Hi,i think it depends on your dog because i have 2 dogs and the little one can eat anything fruit meat salad you name it he will eat it and it has no effect on him whats so ever. But the rottie, well we have to be so careful. he can only eat dried food and it cant be a very rich one. if we change is food or give him tinned or even fresh cooked meat it gose straight thro him.Belive me its not very nice cleaning up after him either, so we keep him on the same kind of food.so i think you will have to try him on different foods and see how it effect your dog. :wink:

[Aroura]

Julia, try your rottie on a BARF diet, believe me you'll see a difference! Lily is nearly 8 months old now, and her whole life she has had sloppys poos, but within a week of feeding her on lots of bones, I can see an amazing difference!!!
Search the net, there's plenty of sites on barf, as well as a barf web ring. Trust me, you wont be sorry.
As for listing meat as the top three ingredients, think of it this way, for each of those meats, not much meat will be in it, a majority would be ground feathers, bones, beaks, feet etc, dog food companys couldn't make a profit if they put any good quality meat in their food, its all the stuff that gets thrown away, including dying, diseased animals and cancerous tissues, and is unfit for human consumpion. Meat listed as the top three ingredients is good, as at leas 60% of a dogs diet should consist of meat, but look more closely at the ingredients, chances are the grains etc are listed seperatly, therefore each is only a small percent, but add those percentages up and meat probably isn't the top ingredient anyway!!!
Its all very confusing, I've emailed dog food companys questioning their ingredients, but never receive a reply... maybe their trying to cover something? :-?

[Horsefeathers!]

Hmmmm... Aroura, I'm not sure I agree that a dog's diet should consist of 60% meat. I'm still studying and learning, but according to a very respected source, it should be 50% carbs, 25% beta carotenes (veggies) and 25% protein. And even then, from my understanding, the amount of red meat should be limited (white meat is best) and no fatty table scraps. I was concerned at first about that high amount of carbs potentially leading to diabetes (and in cats, it certainly will), but I'm following the evidence that this works well. This is something I'm still very fresh at and am still learning, so I'm not "preaching." There are many people who say something about, "Well, look how the wolves and primitive dogs ate..." but I just don't think that's a valid argument. Anyway, just my spin on the 60% meat thing.

Several of you already know my take on the BARF diet. While I think it's great that so many dogs do well on it, if you REALLY do your homework from an objective point of view ("you" meaning anyone considering it... not meaning any particular "you"), you will find that it certainly is NOT without risk, no matter how carefully executed. You can't just follow the BARF sites... you have to weigh both sides of the issue and find objective sources of information. Even with the soakings and all the proper care, dogs can and do get salmonella poisoning and they can and do get bones (even raw) lodged where they ought not. Again, I'm certainly not trying to talk anyone out of anything. I just believe anyone considering it should be armed with all available information. It's a calculated risk, for sure. My own allergy dog did great on it as far as her allergies were concerned and, for that, I hated to have to take her off it. There are, however, for anyone interested, quality commercially prepared foods available. Again, it just requires doing the homework. High price does not guarantee high quality (Science Diet and Eukanuba are, IMO, high priced garbage), but then again, high quality will not come cheap. I personally prefer to feed OMH Wellness supplemented with a COOKED diet. I feel it is outright misleading (at best) for the "professionals"(the people who write these books) to say that cooking destroys vital nutrients. It simply does not.

Just my nickel's worth... peace 8)

[Guest Anonymous]

Aroura..
I would have to disagree with you on the definitions of the quality of the meats listed. I know chicken-by-products would include feathers, feet, beak and ect.. There are no by-products listed in Innova and they were listed as 1 of the top 10 dog foods in an article(I'll try to find it). I would love to put him on the BARF diet but I just dont have the time and money to give it to him all the time.

[Aroura]

As for carbohydrates, dogs convert fats and vegetables into carbohydrates, grains and cereals can only lead to causing cancer.
Here is a good link you may want to check out -

[url]http://www.barfworld.com/html/learn_more/nograin.shtml[/url]

Depending on which source you talk to, you will find that most nutritionalists who have done extensive research into dog nutrition all agree that dogs should have at least 60 - 75% meat. Of course some beg to differ, but considering that throughout a vets university years they only get two speeches on dog nutrition, both by petfood representatives.
In the other forum I post in everyone but one or two people are either vets or breeders, they all swear by BARF and have never had any problems with it. Probably one of the only people there who fed their dogs commercial food just found out their dog was sick from the toxins in the food (and yes, it was a well respected brand too!)
So theres my 2 cents, don't mean to say you are wrong, just going by a number of respected nutritionalists and my personal observations. :wink:

[julie45]

Thank you Aroura i will take a look at the site you surgested.Also i will try the food just to see how my dog dose on it.I will let you know if there is any improvement.I think any thing is worth trying,so thanks again for the tip :)

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Underdog']I was wondering if food can be too rich for a dog? I'm currently feeding my Dobie(almost 6 months) Puppy Innova. It list the first 3 ingredents as Turkey, Chicken, Chicken meal. Now, I know first couple of ingredents in the dog food should be a good type of meat source but would it be overdoing it if the first 3 are meats???
I ask this because everyother poop he does seems loose, the other one would be normal. We also have some fruit trees in our yard and notice that he likes to pull them off the branch(sometimes with the branchs) and chew and eat them.[/quote]
Yes ;-) the short answer ;-)
and No its not because its 'overdoing it' but because your individual pup is not finding this particular food suitable (or he has a whipworm or coccidia infection etc which can cause loose stools)
Different dogs do best on different foods. Some dogs are allergic to some ingredients in dog foods. The key thing is not what some website says but how your dog does on the food.
BTW Many people with larger breeds are feeding pups only adult food and not a puppy food.

[Guest Anonymous]

Aroura, I don't quite understand that grains and veggies "can [i][u]only[/u][/i] lead to causing cancer" thing. I just don't see the cancer causing potential of rice (for example) which is so easily digestible and often used in elimination diets any more than anything else. I might raise an eyebrow and be concerned if it was a diabetes issue (I'm still chewing on that), but I don't get the cancer thing. See, my whole problem is that I am just not ready to take the barf site link as a reliable and objective source of info. I need something more objective. I am all for learning more, but I need ALL sides of the issue. Do you have any other more objective links? University studies, or such? I have some major studies that I'm basing my opinions on, but am very willing to learn more and would certainly be the first to eat my own words if I found out I was jeopardizing my dogs' health. I had to eat my words when I argued my vet and many other people down when I was the biggest BARF proponent and claimed that MY dog wouldn't get sick because I was doing all the right things. Boy, howdy, did I eat those words. I'm not above saying, "Oopsies... boy, am I a knobhead!"

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. With my own sources of info which directly conflict with the mega portions of meat theory, I'm still leaning the other way until I can see other evidence (and I just can't use BARF sites as my evidence... that whole objectivity thing, ya know?). I guess my whole thing to begin with is that I have a problem telling anyone that BARF is 100% safe for ALL dogs as long as you read the books. I just think people should be able to make an informed decision and not be influenced by sites promoting one thing as being best. Of course, we all know that what is best for one dog will not be best for many others. Not trying to be argumentative at all... that's just me.

[Aroura]

Horsefeather, I might have to agree that we should agree to disagree! :lol:
Although I will have a search around for some studys, I do understand where your comming from, I once thought the same but have seen too many outstanding results of BARF diets I think that it speaks for itself, just searching the BARF webwing and looking at all those super duper long lived puppy dogs convinced me! As well as a large number of breeders I talk to who use it and produce some of the healthyest pups... I was a bit wary about the whole breeding dogs and raising pups on raw meat, but when I found out none of the pups had ever died and one of the largest litters ever born was produced from BARF I realized that if young pups can handle it certainly adult dogs can! :wink:
Julie, glad to hear you'll give it a go, read up on it as much as possible and theres a few good forums on BARF too that can help you with any questions you have! Good luck! :D :D :D

[Guest Anonymous]

Hi friends,
you might want to look at this link for info on dog food ingredients.
[url]http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=79&rnk=1&qry=dog+food+ingredients%3f[/url]

I am still studying/learning; my Corgis do fine on ANY dog food, but my new shelter puppy (breed is anyone's guess) needs better nutrition; his coat and skin are horribly dry.

Good luck!

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Aroura']Horsefeather, I might have to agree that we should agree to disagree! :lol:
Although I will have a search around for some studys, I do understand where your comming from, I once thought the same but have seen too many outstanding results of BARF diets I think that it speaks for itself, just searching the BARF webwing and looking at all those super duper long lived puppy dogs convinced me! As well as a large number of breeders I talk to who use it and produce some of the healthyest pups... I was a bit wary about the whole breeding dogs and raising pups on raw meat, but when I found out none of the pups had ever died and one of the largest litters ever born was produced from BARF I realized that if young pups can handle it certainly adult dogs can! :wink:
Julie, glad to hear you'll give it a go, read up on it as much as possible and theres a few good forums on BARF too that can help you with any questions you have! Good luck! :D :D :D[/quote]


THE LARGEST EVERY LITTER WAS PRODUCED FROM BARF.....IT WAS PRODUCED FROM THE DOG AND BITCH.
IF THAT WERE THE CASE ALL THE MILLS WOULD FEED IT.
AND AS TO CANCER IN AN EARLIER POST. PLEEEEEEEZE
A DOG IN THE WILD WILL CATCH ITS FOOD, IT WILL NOT THEN SKIN IT CUT OFF FEET, BEAKS ETC AND GUT IT, IT WILL EAT THE LOT. INCLUDING WHAT THE PREY HAD EATEN.
I SUGGEST YOU GO BACK AND DO SOME MORE RESEARCH ON THE CANCER AND BREEDING BEFORE YOU MAKE THESE REMARKABLE QUOTES.

[Aroura]

[quote name='Anonymous']THE LARGEST EVERY LITTER WAS PRODUCED FROM BARF.....IT WAS PRODUCED FROM THE DOG AND BITCH.
IF THAT WERE THE CASE ALL THE MILLS WOULD FEED IT.
AND AS TO CANCER IN AN EARLIER POST. PLEEEEEEEZE
A DOG IN THE WILD WILL CATCH ITS FOOD, IT WILL NOT THEN SKIN IT CUT OFF FEET, BEAKS ETC AND GUT IT, IT WILL EAT THE LOT. INCLUDING WHAT THE PREY HAD EATEN.
I SUGGEST YOU GO BACK AND DO SOME MORE RESEARCH ON THE CANCER AND BREEDING BEFORE YOU MAKE THESE REMARKABLE QUOTES.[/quote]

Its always the guests who like to have a go at people isn't it? Well 'Guest', I never said it was THE largest litter, and do you honestly think that the puppy mills would go through the bother of feeding a properly balanced BARF diet? Or even that they would be educated about it?
As for the cancer bit, how much grains would a dog in the wild eat? The prey they fed on fed mostly on grass and leaves, not grains, and any grains they did eat would be all mushy and partially digested anyway. I think you are the one who needs to do the research before having a go at me, because I have done mine.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Aroura']Horsefeather, I might have to agree that we should agree to disagree! :lol:
Although I will have a search around for some studys, I do understand where your comming from, I once thought the same but have seen too many outstanding results of BARF diets I think that it speaks for itself, just searching the BARF webwing and looking at all those super duper long lived puppy dogs convinced me! As well as a large number of breeders I talk to who use it and produce some of the healthyest pups... I was a bit wary about the whole breeding dogs and raising pups on raw meat, but when I found out none of the pups had ever died and one of the largest litters ever born was produced from BARF I realized that if young pups can handle it certainly adult dogs can! :wink:
Julie, glad to hear you'll give it a go, read up on it as much as possible and theres a few good forums on BARF too that can help you with any questions you have! Good luck! :D :D :D[/quote]

Sounds to me like you could be sold a bridge very easily - too bad you did not talk to the breeders I did who were feeding barf and wondering why all of a sudden they were getting NO litters at all no matter which dogs they bred!
Not all diets are good for all dogs - and I don't care what diet you propose to use!

[Aroura]

[quote name='Anonymous']Sounds to me like you could be sold a bridge very easily - too bad you did not talk to the breeders I did who were feeding barf and wondering why all of a sudden they were getting NO litters at all no matter which dogs they bred!
Not all diets are good for all dogs - and I don't care what diet you propose to use![/quote]

Why is it 'too bad' I didn't talk to the breeders you did?
I'm very happy with the choice I made to feed a BARF diet, at least I can go to sleep every night not worrying about what toxins I am shovelling into my dog each day.
Quite obviously the people you talked to werent feeding properly and by the sounds of it there werent too many people you spoke to either
I would rather know that what I feed my dogs every day is 100% goodness, and not loaded full of ethoxyquin and other sorts of yukkies.

[Guest Anonymous]

Re Read your posts ....
in all sections on feeding.....
it says it all :(

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Aroura'][quote name='Anonymous']Sounds to me like you could be sold a bridge very easily - too bad you did not talk to the breeders I did who were feeding barf and wondering why all of a sudden they were getting NO litters at all no matter which dogs they bred!
Not all diets are good for all dogs - and I don't care what diet you propose to use![/quote]

Why is it 'too bad' I didn't talk to the breeders you did?
I'm very happy with the choice I made to feed a BARF diet, at least I can go to sleep every night not worrying about what toxins I am shovelling into my dog each day.
Quite obviously the people you talked to werent feeding properly and by the sounds of it there werent too many people you spoke to either
I would rather know that what I feed my dogs every day is 100% goodness, and not loaded full of ethoxyquin and other sorts of yukkies.[/quote]

But they were feeding the BARF diet exactly as they understood it should be done - you cannot say 'all' and be believable on a subject like this because its not 'all' and it is never 'all'. My feeling is you need to see a wider view rather than taking the word of a few when it comes to feeding dogs anything at all. And as for the food you feed being pure there is NO way you could ever know that even if you raised it all yourself there could be contaminants from soil water and air added into the foods you feed without analysis you'll never know for sure.
While I am sure there are some dogs who will do ok while on the diet you feed I also know there are other dogs who do just fine on other diets - IME feeding a fair number of different dogs over the years (rescues for example) I've found that different dogs may do better on different diets even when they are of the same breed thus there is no food 'perfect' for all dogs. I also know that different breeds may do well on one food but not another - perhaps its all related to what the foods were where the breeds were developed. Interesting for example so many shar pei end up on fish and rice diets and that some great pyrenees breeders believe their breed does better on a low protein diet with more grains in it as that is what the breed was developed on for a diet. Thats one of the reasons I say don't listen to what a website or book has to say as the only source for your information you need to look at your dog in addition to seeing what the 'experts' think. A food your dog will not eat is useless, a food that your dog does not do well on is not worth buying no matter how highly ranked its ingredients are.
If I wanted to feed my dogs a 'perfect' diet I probably should be feeding them whole wild mice and rats with some wild greens and fruits in season. However they do fabulously on a particluar premium commercial diet and horribly on one rated as being 'better'. I choose to feed what the dogs do well on and I don't claim all dogs will do equally well on what I feed just that I am happy mine do great.

[Aroura]

Thanks guys, I know I shouldn't be phased, but sometimes people like that just get to me!!! Not that our guest has really gotton to me, I'm just sticking up for what I beleive in, and if I wasn't 100% certain that feeding BARF wasn't the best thing for my dogs I wouldn't spend so much time and money feeding it! :D
Just one more thing to Guest before I ignore you completely, the beauty of BARF is that you can adjust it for your dogs needs, what you say about different dogs needing different things only proves my point. It is possible to feed a 100% balanced diet suited exactly to your dogs needs, something no commercial dog food will give you, and you can do it without the poisons they use in commercial dog food.
All you have done in that argument is proove my point.

[Aroura]

And Horsefeathers... didn't find any studys yet on BARF, but take a look at some studys done into the nutrition of wolves, I think you'll find they have alot less influence from the billion dollar industry of commercial dog food companys, and keep in mind that their digestive tracts remain the same :)
I was wondering if you had any links to studys of your sources? That would be great, love to see both sides of a story! :D

[Aroura]

Heres a link you all might find interesting [url]http://www.noahsark2by2.org/ethoxyquin.htm[/url]
I've already tried questioning a few companys, but rather than saying what they put in their food they prefer not to answer. :-?

[Horsefeathers!]

Ah, yes, I have tons of links and info on what's really in commercial dog foods and even lots of info on government (U.S.) requirements regarding labeling and what is allowed and not allowed and what the manufacturers don't have to tell (if you're interested in that, too), but I'm not really trying to compare most average commercial foods to the raw diets. It's kind of like comparing apples to oranges. I guess what I was talking about was a raw diet vs. cooked/[u]quality[/u] commercial diet. Believe me, I am well aware of what is being put into most commercial foods. Again, my problem is with the idea that raw is TOTALLY safe. I have to agree with the guest who said that there are too many things to consider from individual dog to individual dog to believe that one diet is best across the board. Like I harp on constantly (I know), I'm just saying that I know that many many dogs have seen benefit from a raw diet. I just speak up when I see someone say that it's 100% risk free and safe as long as you buy the books and follow them. I know for myself that it's not always the case.

Anyway, my greatest source of info (since you asked :wink: ) is a fellow named Jon Frey who totally advocates a natural [b][u]cooked[/u][/b] diet and has done extensive research into canine nutrition. Remember, I was once a BARFer and stood behind that as well and I like to think I'm as objective as anyone could be and willing to admit I'm wrong and learn more. If I thought for a minute that Jfrey was yanking my chain, I'd be the first to call him on it. The studies and links I've read have mostly been presented to me by him (one thing that gives him such credibility with me is that he is willing to direct me to [u]independent[/u] studies. He writes books, also ["Throw The Dog A Mirepoix"], which is all the more cause for me to be cynical, but he's gained my trust as much as it's possible to gain it... of course, I continue to learn and study on my own). I will contact him again and see if he can resend me some of the studies I've been presented with. Independent studies, not something slanted to present one point of view. Also, keep in mind that I wouldn't be so concerned if it weren't for the fact that MY own dog got gravely ill on the BARF diet despite my careful attention to detail and I've talked to many others with similar experiences. That is personal experience, but, unfortunately, not concrete *proof* to anyone else.

Please keep in mind that I'm NOT saying BARF doesn't work for some, or even most, dogs. I just have a problem telling people it's 100% safe for ALL dogs. That's when I squeak up. :roll:

Still not trying to be argumentative and I certainly see your point of view. I once felt as you do about BARF, so I know the enthusiasm. We each just want to do what is best for our own dogs and all we can do is the best we can do with what we each feel is right. :D

[Aroura]

Thanks in advance for those links Horsefeathers.

I know where your coming from, maybe it isn't 100% safe for all dogs, although I have never (apart from what you just said) heard of any negatives about it, and obviously as I said before, I wouldnt dream of feeding it to my dogs if I had any doubt at all in my mind that it may cause any harm. I know for a fact, proven by many, many studys that commercial dog food can cause all sorts of problems, even the *best* ones. If however I did have any doubts on feeding raw meat I would feed a home cooked version of the diet.
Living in a place where no matter what my dogs will find 3 week old animal carcasses and have a chew on them though, I tend not to worry too much about feeding fresh raw meat from the supermarket! :lol:
Explain what happend to you dog can you? Maybe there is some other expaination... just curious

[Horsefeathers!]

Ah, here is some info and LOTS of reading. A lot of this says basically what I have been saying.... that not every dog will get sick/injured, but that it's possible and it also goes into quite an interesting discussion regarding how wolves ate and comparing that to domesticated dogs. Also, it states that there is NO nutritional benefit of feeding raw vs. cooked.... meat is meat, but cooked meat is safer. Cooking does not destroy any nutrients. It also addresses the issue of dogs being pumped with TOO much protein. I don't find any of this to be an anti-BARF site, per se, as much as the BARF sites are so pro. It's just a lot of good, useful info and, of course, much of it is a matter of opinion just as is a lot of the BARF stuff.

You can view xrays of dogs who have had RAW bones lodged in their tracts and mouths at [url]http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/bones.html[/url] . It happens. Maybe not frequently, I don't know, but it happens.

This has a lot of discussion on wolves in the wild vs. domestic dogs.
[url]http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/wolfexrep.html[/url]

This is a question and answer page that has a lot of raw diet questions. If you read through all of it, some people make some very strong arguments for raw diets. I'm with Dr. Mike Richards on this one... at the bottom of the page he asks, "Why not just cook the meat in the diet you plan to use?"
[url]http://www.vetinfo.com/drawmeat.html[/url]

A lot of this stuff makes sense to me. I just can't buy the "all or nothing" thing, ya know? It makes sense to think that wolves eating raw carcasses are not as similar to feeding domestic dogs store bought meat as many people would have me believe. Wolves eat bones coated with fur and flesh which many scientific types believe helps the bones pass through. I know of no domestic dogs who have fur and flesh included in their raw diets. Also, it's impossible to study wolves in the wild to know that they, in fact, do not suffer from bone fragments lodging in their tracts, or from bacterial/parasitic illnesses. It's entirely possible that it happens. How would we know it doesn't? Wolves in the wild do not have the same life span as a domestic dog.

"Wolves habitually eat whole carcasses, including large and small bones, leaving nothing but scraps of hair. There are certainly documented cases of wolves choking on bones or starving after bones becomes stuck in the mouth or throat." *Richard Morley for The Wolf Society of Great Britain



Anyway, please remember that I'm not comparing a natural diet to commercial kibble. I'm all for a natural diet. I just see no reason NOT to cook the meat if it eliminates what might even be considered a small risk (though I personally don't believe it's such a small risk). I just keep pointing out that raw is not without risk. I do understand that so many dogs benefit from it, but I just feel that anyone contemplating it for the first time should be aware of the involved risk and not count on JUST raw sites/books/advocates as their sole source of info because of the lack of objectivity. It's very misleading for these authors to tell people that the only risk involved is if you do it wrong. That's simply not true and many many other people besides me read the books, joined the sites and forums and followed it to the letter and had problems. Oh, and since you asked... my dog had salmonella illness (as per my vet and lengthy hospitalization/lab work/testing/whatever all it is that they do). She was a VERY sick little girl and all meat and other ingredients had been handled EXACTLY as instructed. I've long since ditched my books and everything associated with it as I was so upset. I couldn't even begin to tell you which all books I read.... a friend who was a major advocate ordered a lot of the stuff for me from Amazon and had it shipped to me and that along with joining the sites and pro-raw discussion forums was enough to convince me. I didn't even bother doing any objective searching because it [u]sounded[/u] so good (that whole "wolves in the wild" argument was enough for me) and it never crossed my mind that "they" could be wrong. I considered myself well researched, well read, had done my homework and all that. When my gal got sick and I began sharing that in case others had problems, I was instantly attacked (for lack of a better word, but "attacked" fits) because I was obviously such a crackpot and did it alllll wrong and blah blah blah. However, many people on these same lists contacted me via email privately to tell me they'd had similar problems. It wasn't just me. It just isn't openly discussed amongst many of the raw sites for fear of such attacks (who ARE these people, anyway?).

Anyway, I digress...

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Aroura']And Horsefeathers... didn't find any studys yet on BARF, but take a look at some studys done into the nutrition of wolves, I think you'll find they have alot less influence from the billion dollar industry of commercial dog food companys, and keep in mind that their digestive tracts remain the same :)
I was wondering if you had any links to studys of your sources? That would be great, love to see both sides of a story! :D[/quote]

Wolves die younger than dogs and have more parasites too they suffer from skeletal diseases just like dogs do and are not healthier because of their diets they are actually less healthy because of them.
Captive wolves live longer than wild counterparts and are usually fed a commercial diet in a zoo setting.

[Guest Anonymous]

[quote name='Aroura']Thanks guys, I know I shouldn't be phased, but sometimes people like that just get to me!!! Not that our guest has really gotton to me, I'm just sticking up for what I beleive in, and if I wasn't 100% certain that feeding BARF wasn't the best thing for my dogs I wouldn't spend so much time and money feeding it! :D
Just one more thing to Guest before I ignore you completely, the beauty of BARF is that you can adjust it for your dogs needs, what you say about different dogs needing different things only proves my point. It is possible to feed a 100% balanced diet suited exactly to your dogs needs, something no commercial dog food will give you, and you can do it without the poisons they use in commercial dog food.
All you have done in that argument is proove my point.[/quote]

Ah then of course you can tell us how much selenium or zinc say is in your dog's diets? Perhaps you can tell us how you know the water and food fed to the animals you serve up raw to your dogs was kept completely uncontaminated? Maybe you can point out the fields where the vegetation was grown and explain how it alone got clean water (no acid rain even) and how its soil has all the elements needed and no contaminants added.
I'm not saying you should not feed your dogs what they are doing well (you think anyway) on but that you cannot say its 'perfect' for all owners and all dogs nor can you say its free of contaminants no matter how much you wish you could.
In the 'olden days' when peoples dogs hunted for part of their diets dogs lived on average shorter lives than they do now. Commercial diets greatly improved the health and longevity of dogs in general from the time they were introduced. I wish I thought your opinions had any science behind them but they don't. My dogs do great, are healthy, live long lives on commercial food and whelp and sire healthy litters too on the not so frequent occasions I permit them to. I see no point in risking their health on raw foods that are not properly tested to be properly balanced for ALL their needs.