Guest Anonymous Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 "Ear cropping and tail docking in dogs for cosmetic reasons are not medically indicated nor of benefit to the patient. These procedures cause pain and distress, and, as with all surgical procedures, are accompanied by inherent risks of anesthesia, blood loss, and infection. Therefore, veterinarians should counsel dog owners about these matters before agreeing to perform these surgeries." I know that there is a range of viewpoints on this issue and thought you might like to know what the AVMA's position is. Personally, I think they are better qualified to speak on the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 [quote name='Nicki']"Ear cropping and tail docking in dogs for cosmetic reasons are not medically indicated nor of benefit to the patient. These procedures cause pain and distress, and, as with all surgical procedures, are accompanied by inherent risks of anesthesia, blood loss, and infection. Therefore, veterinarians should counsel dog owners about these matters before agreeing to perform these surgeries." I know that there is a range of viewpoints on this issue and thought you might like to know what the AVMA's position is. Personally, I think they are better qualified to speak on the issue.[/quote] I would agree if this was not a splinter group supported by the animal rights folks (who's ultimate goal is no animals for anyone). It does not speak for the veterinarians of this country. Alas this is not the 'voice' it pretends to be. Nor is it even remotely accurate in nature. Docking and cropping both have benefits to the dog. The simplest benefit for someone unfamiliar with the idea to understand being they indicate the dog is a purebred and helps to get them out of shelters if they end up in one! Other surgeries vets do don't have benefits for the animals. For all I am in favor of spay and neuter for pets when you think in terms of the dog and the species neither does much for the animal. Dogs would *prefer* to mate and raise offspring that is what they are designed to do. For that matter if nature ran its course there would be no dogs with drop ears at all - every dog would have the selected by nature prick ear. Then consider debarking, declawing of cats, removal of anal glands well there is a lot of stuff done to animals by vets don't you find it interesting just what is targetted? the things that show a particular dog was bred by a breeder who knows about the breed and is a purebred? I sure do find it interesting. Be careful who's advice you decide to follow - before taking groups at face value check them out very carefully to see if they really are what they look to be. There are 'humane' groups that want to end animal ownership by humans, there are registries which are simply tools to help mills get more money for their animals and nothing else and their are groups that look like they are one thing and really are something else entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 [quote]Then consider debarking, declawing of cats, removal of anal glands well there is a lot of stuff done to animals by vets don't you find it interesting just what is targetted? [/quote] True, the position statement does not address these other procedures. I don't know if they have issued a statement on them. While these sound more extreme, when you really think about it they all involve removal of body parts and should be viewed as the same. We have become immune to the tails and ears being chopped cuz it is so common. I recently heard of a case where a man chopped off the tails of his four labs cuz he said they were knocking over stuff by wagging their tails. The bone and nerves were all exposed and infected. Some people heard him bragging about it and contacted animal control and went to his house and removed the dogs. He was arrested. As far as I'm concerned, animals should keep the body parts that they were born with (except for spay & neuter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 That last post was mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 I worked in a vet for about a year and you would be surprised at what people wanted for thier pets. We didn't do docking or earclips, and in this area there are really not a lot of vets who do. I am not for or agenst such procedures, in some cases it's good and in others it's cruel. My aussie has a natural bob to her tail and that is one of the things I like best, her little wiggle butt! Our neighbor's dog is a black lab mix and she has herniated her disk a couple of times now from waggling her tail so much! I also knew a dog that broke his tail when he wagged it agenst something. So in some instances no tail is a good thing... I do not believe in debarking, as for declawing, well I have seen alot of improper declaws (including a bengal tiger who couldn't walk on his front feet!) I owned a pair of ferrets for a while and these animals would have been unbearable with thier glands intact! There were still stinky! Again I have seen this procedure done improperly and the results were heartbreaking. (I have also seen what happens when you accidentally break one of those glands when they have been removed, the scene...ur smell was terrible!) I most definatly agree that before you do something to your pet you take into consideration as to how this will affect them....cosmetic or otherwise! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 [quote name='Anonymous'][quote]Then consider debarking, declawing of cats, removal of anal glands well there is a lot of stuff done to animals by vets don't you find it interesting just what is targetted? [/quote] True, the position statement does not address these other procedures. I don't know if they have issued a statement on them. While these sound more extreme, when you really think about it they all involve removal of body parts and should be viewed as the same. We have become immune to the tails and ears being chopped cuz it is so common. I recently heard of a case where a man chopped off the tails of his four labs cuz he said they were knocking over stuff by wagging their tails. The bone and nerves were all exposed and infected. Some people heard him bragging about it and contacted animal control and went to his house and removed the dogs. He was arrested. As far as I'm concerned, animals should keep the body parts that they were born with (except for spay & neuter).[/quote] So its ok to mutilate dogs and cats if it is convenient for you? :lol: I'm just twitching you on this to see it from another's view. Do you know based on this type of surgery being cruel that in some countries it is illegal to spay or neuter a dog unless it has an infection or cancer? The docking you describe is of course a case of cruelty. Completely different from the procedure done at the right age and in sterile conditions etc. I think there is a huge difference between proper surgery and cruelty myself. And in case you wonder I have watched the docking and cropping of every pup I have had done over many years and seen the procedure done with other people's too with no big trauma or pain to the animals involved seen by me at any time. If I had a vet who did it cruelly they sure would never be seeing my animals again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 [url]http://www.cdb.org/[/url] has lots of information on the issues of docking of breeds normally docked and what happens to far too many of the poor dogs as a result of some people's attempts at 'kindness' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 [quote]in some countries it is illegal to spay or neuter a dog unless it has an infection or cancer? [/quote] I never heard of that. Do you know the names of any? I just assumed that every country would want to encourage spay & neutering to control the animal po;ulation. I know the case I cited about the guy cutting his labs tails off was extreme but I have heard people say they wanted their dogs tails chopped cuz they didn't want their dog to knock over things with their tail. I assume they had it done professionally but still. I guess I'm more used to it if it is common practice with a particular breed as opposed to preventing knocking over stuff. That's like I don't want to hear my dog bark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 That cbd link really has a lot of info on this topic and lots of links to other sites. I never realized this was such a big issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 [quote name='nicki'][quote]in some countries it is illegal to spay or neuter a dog unless it has an infection or cancer? [/quote] I never heard of that. Do you know the names of any? I just assumed that every country would want to encourage spay & neutering to control the animal po;ulation. I know the case I cited about the guy cutting his labs tails off was extreme but I have heard people say they wanted their dogs tails chopped cuz they didn't want their dog to knock over things with their tail. I assume they had it done professionally but still. I guess I'm more used to it if it is common practice with a particular breed as opposed to preventing knocking over stuff. That's like I don't want to hear my dog bark.[/quote] I'm trying to recall (someone somewhere was saying how cruel it was that we had our dogs spayed and neutered here in the US :roll: ) but I believe it was in Scandinavia somewhere. They claimed they believed there that owners should simply have control of their dogs rather than mutilate them this way - excellent concept for sure but radically unenforceable here I think! Different culture, different view which once I got past my shocked disbelief :D I found rather interesting but unlikely to be applicable to the US based on the mixing of cultures and attitudes here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 I know I'm going to regret asking this but how did they do this at home? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Since you asked... I, too, have seen the home cropping and docking jobs. Probably the most popular tail docking method, locally, involves winding a rubber band around the tails and simply letting them rot off. The people who do this say that it doesn't hurt. You wouldn't believe how badly some of them are mutilated and they do get infected and such. It never fails to amaze me that people think this is not cruel at all and doesn't hurt since "there really ain't no nerves or nuthin' there." As for the home ear cropping jobs... are you sitting? I hope so. Around here, the ones that do it at home think it's sort of like piercing ears, or something equally minimal. They'll take kitchen scissors, pocket knives, box cutters... whatever, and just saw those ears right off the way they think it should look. No stitching, no antibiotics... just ZIP and off they go. They are always amazed at how much those dogs will bleed, as if they didn't think they would. Anything to save a buck... :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 People use to neuter their males with rubberbands here. Picture that one if you want...along with the massive infection it left behind!! :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 [quote name='Mei-Mei']I suppose that the biggest problem with docking and cropping is the number of people who want a dog with the look, but aren't willing to pay a vet. When I started to volunteer at the shelter I was ultra-shocked at the large number of 'homemade' dock and crops. :o[/quote] well that varies too - many breeders are highly trained in the docking procedures - better than many vets are in fact as for cropping - I've seen some awful messes made by vets who were willing but not really able if you know what I mean :lol: I've seen non vets do a better job. But I assure you I'm NOT talking about the millers who do ears and tails the same time :evil: so they will be ready to go to the broker at 5 weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 [quote name='Horsefeathers']Since you asked... I, too, have seen the home cropping and docking jobs. Probably the most popular tail docking method, locally, involves winding a rubber band around the tails and simply letting them rot off. The people who do this say that it doesn't hurt. You wouldn't believe how badly some of them are mutilated and they do get infected and such. It never fails to amaze me that people think this is not cruel at all and doesn't hurt since "there really ain't no nerves or nuthin' there." As for the home ear cropping jobs... are you sitting? I hope so. Around here, the ones that do it at home think it's sort of like piercing ears, or something equally minimal. They'll take kitchen scissors, pocket knives, box cutters... whatever, and just saw those ears right off the way they think it should look. No stitching, no antibiotics... just ZIP and off they go. They are always amazed at how much those dogs will bleed, as if they didn't think they would. Anything to save a buck... :o[/quote] Um you are wrong about the banding method of docking its actually condsidered more humane when properly done than cutting the tails is - the key of course is the words 'properly done'. I know people who *apprenticed* to learn how to properly dock their breed using a mentor to help them until they were sure they knew how. Banding reduces scar tissue at the dock point and is commonly used for breeds where the tail is totally removed such as the Corgi, Schipperke, OES and many other breeds. Interestingly enough banding is also the method of choice for removing extra digits from human children born with them. As for cropping - IMO it should be done under anesthesia but the decision on sewing, gluing or letting nature take its course once the slit blood vessels are compressed with forceps seems to be up in the air for many vets. I happen to want the ears stitched myself but others feel differently. I've seen infected spays and neuters and improperly cared for wounds etc - any time you have an idiot doing health care you run a high risk of infection and problems is what I think :-) Its why I prefer people who know what they are doing whether they have a degree or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 So you'd be willing to wrap a rubber band around your finger and let it rot off? How many ways are there to wrap a rubber band around a tail re right way vs wrong way? I'm not advocating docking at all for cosmetic purposes, but I've seen both methods and, if I had to choose the lesser of the two evils, I'd much prefer the quick snip I've witnessed (on 2 - 3 day old puppies) and the instant yelp, the one stitch and, usually, back off to sleep they go vs the week or so of rotting off. We'll certainly have to agree to disagree on this one because nothing anyone could tell me would make me believe that wrapping a rubber band around a puppy's tail and letting it rot off is humane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 Thanks for the education. After reading this, I am definitely against cropping, docking and chopping off any body parts. This is totally cruel and inhumane. The only question I have left is why hasn't this been outlawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 This lady I know who breeds OES's does that to their tails. I think it is cruel. I feel that docking and cropping is not cruel only when you rubber band the tail. :-? I just got the new dog fancy in the mail and it had a little article about this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 [quote name='Horsefeathers']So you'd be willing to wrap a rubber band around your finger and let it rot off? How many ways are there to wrap a rubber band around a tail re right way vs wrong way? I'm not advocating docking at all for cosmetic purposes, but I've seen both methods and, if I had to choose the lesser of the two evils, I'd much prefer the quick snip I've witnessed (on 2 - 3 day old puppies) and the instant yelp, the one stitch and, usually, back off to sleep they go vs the week or so of rotting off. We'll certainly have to agree to disagree on this one because nothing anyone could tell me would make me believe that wrapping a rubber band around a puppy's tail and letting it rot off is humane.[/quote] Actually what I meant to convey is that *surgeons* do that with babies with extra fingers *instead* of chopping them off due to the lesser scar tissue and the totally traumalessness of the procedure. What reportedly actually happens when its done right is the finger or tail goes to 'sleep' with the blood supply cut off and the pup or baby feels nothing but numbness there and the digit or tail falls off and the body just has grown the live skin edges together at the banding point. No open wound to get infected, no trauma to the baby or pup, little scar tissue, the band settles at the join between vertebrae just right and no pain - sounds like a decent deal to me for one trained to do it right. Oh and if the tail 'rots' that is a sign it was done wrong as the blood supply is not properly cut off. Its the preferred way to dock lambs too. When I first hear of this I too thought it sounded cruel - only education with people who really knew what they were doing let me see how well and safely and kindly the procedure worked. I have my vet dock my pups - not even a squeak for that procedure when he does it :wink: but if he chose to band and not snip I'd be happy with that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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